North Korea conducts Nuclear Test

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
North Korea conducts nuclear test

North Korea has staged a "successful" underground nuclear test, the state-run KCNA agency reports.

The agency says the test was "aimed at strengthening its [North Korea's] self-defence nuclear deterrent in every way".

The news confirms earlier reports by South Korea's Yonhap news agency.

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak is reported to have convened an emergency security meeting.

Yonhap quoted an unnamed official from South Korea's ruling party.

Both South Korea's and the US geological agency said they detected a seismic tremor early on Monday that indicated a nuclear explosion.

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | North Korea conducts nuclear test

Probably the last thing USA needed at this time. It will be very interesting to see how the USA and allies react to this test.

It could very well be an Iranian bomb too.
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
Why would Iran have its nuclear bomb tested by North Korea?

It would achieve nothing from a strategic point of view and would do nothing to deter the threat that they are facing.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
4.7 on the moment magnitude scale? I say 7 kt, if it is indeed a nuclear explosion.

Desperate for attention, are they? It took so much less when Bush Jr. was in power. ;)

Btw, the source of the magnitude #: Magnitude 4.7 - NORTH KOREA
7 kt ?? Could this mean that the device does not reach the intended yield ??
Seems this is still an enriched uranium device, not plutonium grade ones yet.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
7 kt ?? Could this mean that the device does not reach the intended yield ??
Seems this is still an enriched uranium device, not plutonium grade ones yet.
Haha it could be 5 kt or 21 kt, +/- 0.2 on the scale, I just took a pot shot. But I'd think uranium enriched, yes. But that's on probable technology, not yield.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
So they have mastered basic fission based weapon. Looks like at least its efficent, the last one was a bit of fizzer.. This one looks stronger.. 15kt or better is ideal for this type of weapon.

I would assume Uranium. Cheaper and simplier. Still if they have a workable design I would imagine they will do the NK thing and start churning them out as quick as they can.

Now there really is a reason to have a BMD. As NK has a habit of developing then selling on technologies particularly if the US or it allies doesn't want someone to have it.
 

Firn

Active Member
So our highness Kim has now a nuclear warhead. Japan, South Korea and the USA have been working on their BMDs for some reason.
 

S400

New Member
Makes sense

Without looking it up: Russia has claimed "15-20 kt".
It would be in their benefit to claim it is on the high end of the probable spectrum. Increased tensions and increased possibility for havoc.
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't think it is over inflated. It really doesn't matter if it is 5kt or 10 kt or 20kt. Its a lot bigger than the previous test.

They now have a viable nuclear weapon. This sort of weapon would destroy large sections of a city.

Given they have the rocket technology as well, we really do have the first really rouge nation/dictator with ICBM and nuclear technology. A nation that has no issues with commericalising it, sharing technology with even more rouge and less stable nations.

Now instead of just south korea having to deal with the NK problem, Japan, US, China, Russia, Europe, etc are now able to be threatend.

I hope nations around NK really nit up a tight BMD system and that other nations also build simular systems. If I was Russia or China, I would be investing heavily in that sort of technology.

Good thing Australia announced 11-12 ships to be fitted with BMD systems or some sort.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
They now have a viable nuclear weapon. This sort of weapon would destroy large sections of a city.

Given they have the rocket technology as well, we really do have the first really rouge nation/dictator with ICBM and nuclear technology.
Having a nuclear device it's differing thing with the capability to mount it on top of viable missiles.
If this's still an uranium enriched device, than it's still be quite crude that minituarized the devices for missiles warhead will take another steps to do that.

Besides their Teapodong still have problems, and they have to rely on much shorter range's rodong types missiles.
I think North Korea still needs a least another half decades to really can put warheads on viable missiles (considering they 'potentially' still have problems on both area).

Still time to push them on more acceptable behavioral attitudes :)
 

Neutral Zone

New Member
They can make a workable nuclear device yes, but this doesn't mean that they have the ability to use it as a workable weapons system. They should in the next few years gain the capability to fit nuclear warheads on their existing short range missiles. Even now that may have a dirty bomb capability that could be used against invading troops, most Western attention focuses on their long range ballistic missiles like Taepodong 2 but I read recently that it takes several days to be assembled and readied for launch making it near useless as a deterrent weapon. It may well just be a technology testbed for some advanced missile program.
 

Beatmaster

New Member
Just a question pops-up:

The western world including Russia and China having problems with the fact that North Korea is making progress on their nuclear weapons program and overall weapons capabilities.
The past 20 years the western world did put heavy diplomatic and economic sanctions against North Korea and basically isolating it they also warned him atleast a 1000 times so that one day mister Kim starts to pay attention. (He probably will never lissen to what has been told to him for the past 20 years) but he is still able to make death-treaths against South Korea and other possible enemies inside his direct region and even outside it.
Regardless or he can or cannot starting a war against South Korea and her allies he sure is a real treath to the direct region and stability.

My question is:
Why is he allowed in the first place to come this far?
Because starting a war against him is not the preferred option but it might eventually come to it some day.
Everyone knows that the North korean people's army ground/navy/air and civil security forces are somewhat outdated but still he is a major treath.

What will eventually happen? i mean building the BOMB is one thing but i believe that his reunification war against South Korea will eventually start someday.

If you follow the news then you will see that inside and outside observers notice some skirmishes at the DMZ and that troop movements have increased overtime.
So again Why can he do this without being punished? and how mutch room is he having these days to prepare for a war?

To my opinion this guy is a real sick bastard and he should not have the option to come this far but the fact is he is real and it seems he will not giveup without a real fight, what actions must the western world and Russia/China take to bring this episode to a complete stop and avoid a war?
And what real options is Kim having at this point?
Because at the speed and direction we are heading now there can only be one outcome and thats a war with many many people suffering.
 

LancasterBomber

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What will eventually happen? i mean building the BOMB is one thing but i believe that his reunification war against South Korea will eventually start someday.

...snip...

To my opinion this guy is a real sick bastard and he should not have the option to come this far but the fact is he is real and it seems he will not giveup without a real fight, what actions must the western world and Russia/China take to bring this episode to a complete stop and avoid a war?
And what real options is Kim having at this point?
Because at the speed and direction we are heading now there can only be one outcome and thats a war with many many people suffering.
I disagree. The guy is a character (albeit a delusional one). Nevertheless he is a character. I think he is very manageable. The most disappointing aspect to Kim Jong il's dictatorship is his ignorance of the misery his people face on a daily basis.

There are a myriad of reason's behind why dictators posture on the international stage - often domestic imperatives are overlooked (by outsiders). He walks a tightrope both domestically and internationally.

Quite frankly he is extremely talented at it.

I think the current strategy is sound. Both Russia and China are correct in suggesting we back off him (militarily).

Kim Jong il has very little to gain from a war. He has a lot to gain domestically from posturing internationally. His imperative is to maintain power at all costs. After his recent hospitalisation I imagine there would have been questions raised within his power structure.

Playing with his big toys underground and shooting rockets up in the air no where near anyone and making idle threats against South Korea indicate to me he is shoring up domestic support. He has no intentions whatsoever to attack anyone. That would be my assessment. That would be the assessment of the Chinese and the Russians.

I think the Chinese have adjusted their stance slightly in a political move of their own - they have gotten mileage out of this.

What interests me is his succession strategy and determining to what degree his ideology is truly accepted. I believe there is greater risk in the absence of Kim Jong il. Particularly if the ideology is aggressively carried forward by a younger, more ambitious and narrow minded leader.

But in his passing will also be the greatest opportunity to manoeuvre to an outcome we can build genuine geopolitical foundations upon.

It is important we focus on creating an ideological 'disconnect' post Kim Jong il. Again I think this is the strategy of the Chinese and again I think it is sound.

A more conservative dictatorship in North Korea post Kim Jong il might allow for a broader cultural exchange with South Korea. By opening up concepts of 'individuality' and 'freedom of choice' we may shift that country to see value in opening up to the world.

I dont see risk here (of war). Our job is to maintain our morality and ethics and to consider the lives of North Koreans who have not chosen the lives they lead.

If North Korea launches a genuine attack on any level then we move swiftly to remove that capacity. However we do not pre-empt. If that means we absorb an initial loss of life then so be it.

It is the inherent cost of the morality by which we choose to live.
 
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Beatmaster

New Member
I disagree. The guy is a character (albeit a delusional one). Nevertheless he is a character. I think he is very manageable. The most disappointing aspect to Kim Jong il's dictatorship is his ignorance of the misery his people face on a daily basis.

There are a myriad of reason's behind why dictators posture on the international stage - often domestic imperatives are overlooked (by outsiders). He walks a tightrope both domestically and internationally.

Quite frankly he is extremely talented at it.

I think the current strategy is sound. Both Russia and China are correct in suggesting we back off him (militarily).
I can see your point here but that is not taking away the fact that this man violated more rules than 1000 criminals together.
His people are so scared of him that they would never talk or disagree with him in public.
He might have skyscrapers and such stuff to show his power projection upon his people but on the other hand they need to share each dinner with 4 people otherwise 40% will starve to dead.
So yeah i agree he is putting up a hell of a show and he certainly knows his way around but so are most criminals^^

Kim Jong il has very little to gain from a war. He has a lot to gain domestically from posturing internationally. His imperative is to maintain power at all costs. After his recent hospitalisation I imagine there would have been questions raised within his power structure.
True true on the otherhand North Korean people always have been told one day we will defeat South Korea and that exactly what is going to happen exept for the defeating South Korea part, he is drilling his people 20 years long to prepare for a war against South Korea so basicly he has paved the way for a promise he must keep to maintain his power otherwise he will lose it.

Playing with his big toys underground and shooting rockets up in the air no where near anyone and making idle threats against South Korea indicate to me he is shoring up domestic support. He has no intentions whatsoever to attack anyone. That would be my assessment. That would be the assessment of the Chinese and the Russians.
By playing with Bigtoys he did create a situation that will not help him infact its a sign "invade me" Because he did violate so mutch rules, and creating a huge amount of enemies who will say enough is enough and i do believe that some are already past that point so actions against him and his people must be taken, and he will agian not follow those rules what eventually will make him go to war because he is burning all his options to come out of this in one piece.

Playing with the Bigtoys is in fact in direct violation of numerous sanctions and rules, so everytime he shoots a rocket or test a bomb he is kicking the western world including Russia and China directly in to the nuts:nutkick:eek:nfloorl:
And eventually he will lose the already little support from Russia and his 0.5% ally China.
Because regardless or its just "shoring up domestic support" he is breaking almost every international law that exists.

I think the Chinese have adjusted their stance slightly in a political move of their own - they have gotten mileage out of this.
What interests me is his succession strategy and determining to what degree his ideology is truly accepted. I believe there is greater risk in the absence of Kim Jong il. Particularly if the ideology is aggressively carried forward by a younger, more ambitious and narrow minded leader.

But in his passing will also be the greatest opportunity to manoeuvre to an outcome we can build genuine geopolitical foundations upon.

It is important we focus on creating an ideological 'disconnect' post Kim Jong il. Again I think this is the strategy of the Chinese and again I think it is sound.

A more conservative dictatorship in North Korea post Kim Jong il might allow for a broader cultural exchange with South Korea. By opening up concepts of 'individuality' and 'freedom of choice' we may shift that country to see value in opening up to the world.

I dont see risk here (of war). Our job is to maintain our morality and ethics and to consider the lives of North Koreans who have not chosen the lives they lead.

If North Korea launches a genuine attack on any level then we move swiftly to remove that capacity. However we do not pre-empt. If that means we absorb an initial loss of life then so be it.

It is the inherent cost of the morality by which we choose to live.
Keep in mind he has broken more rules than anyone in 20 years history
but he did make all his promises happen i mean he said:
I will build a bomb and he did
He said lots of things and 90% really did happen.
Now go figure regardless what Russia and China do or think the western world will not approve that he continues this path, so he might play a show here and just creating a dellusional world but the fact is he did go way to far for others to back down the only thing in my opion that would save him is just following the rules and completly shutdown his "Weapon Operations"
He even might to have step down from the "high seat" because if he is not able to keep his promises against his own goverment than he is dead eitherway see my point? he is a strong leader no doubt but he did give people so many reasons to follow him and the people who did not follow him or refused ended up dead or in laborcamp for the rest of their lives.
So if he not starts a war against South Korea as he has promised than his very foundations on his ideology would collapse.
And Kim has been proven a very proud man and putting your proud to a side to backdown and tell the world ok i did just put on a show is in my opion to mutch asked from this Kim.
So from my point of view he has 4 options:

* Start a war (and loses greatly but at least he can say i did as promised and keep the ideology alive for many years to come.)
* Wait upon the moment the western world is going to get him ( So he can say i told you so and we are the bad guys)
* Back down and follow the rules (What will result in a collapsing country and ideology he will lose his power and will put to the stand for treason)
* Ask the international world to remove him from leadership without losing his face and keep his country's dignity/ideology

Thats my opinion about it i might be wrong so if anyone has a differend view about this please share.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
... i mean he said:
I will build a bomb and he did...
I'm not going to address the politics and other issues you raise (as its too speculative to talk with authority on N. Korea matters for my taste) and I'll just stick to a technical discussion of the N. Korean 'bomb'. I share the view of Grand Danois (his early guesstimate of 7 kilotons) and S400 (his source estimates - 4 kilotons) in believing that the initial Russian estimates on the size of the device reported in mainstream press are likely to be wrong (ie. they over estimated the yield).

If the October 2006 results and the initial May 2009 estimates are correct, the N. Korean plutonium fission device was initiated but not all of the plutonium went critical. This accords with Ananda's point of view that it is a fizzle.
(i) Sources have suggested that the October 2006 N. Korean nuclear test was a failure as it had a yield of 0.2 kiloton (ie. it failed).

(ii) Further, some initial reports suggest that this May 2009 nuclear test also did not work as expected for the N. Koreans and it had a yield of between 1.39 - 2.84 kilotons which is hardly a success. This recent N. Korean nuclear test falls far short of an expected 12-20 kiloton yield of a crude Hiroshima-style device.​
For comparison's sake, the first nuclear tests of all other nations that are self-announced members of the nuclear club had larger yields than this latest North Korean test. Fyi, the first French test device had a yield of 65 kilotons. Sources suggest that the smallest a plutonium fission device that can go critical is 8 kgs (which is the nuclear material used in the N. Korean test) and a Hiroshima size bomb would be 12-20 kilotons.
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The French first test is the exception though, regarding yield.

"Trinity", 1945 : 21 kt (USA)
"First Lightning", 1949 : 22 kt (USSR)
"Hurricane", 1952 : 25 kt (UK)
"Gerboise Bleue", 1960 : 70 kt (F)
"596", 1964 : 22 kt (PRC)

Indian Device, 1974 : claimed 12-15 kt, estimated 4-6 kt
Vela Incident / TIROS-N Event *,1979 : estimated about 3 kt
Pakistani Device, 1998 : claimed 37-48 kt (2 bombs), estimated 9-12 kt (total)

All above except the PRC test used Pu-239 implosion-type devices. The French test presumably was a boosted device, with the three subsequent tests only testing the first stage (at 5 kt yield each time).

* - suspected joint Israeli/South-African first test, potentially tactical device.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
The French first test is the exception though, regarding yield.

"Trinity", 1945 : 21 kt (USA)
"First Lightning", 1949 : 22 kt (USSR)
"Hurricane", 1952 : 25 kt (UK)
"Gerboise Bleue", 1960 : 70 kt (F)
"596", 1964 : 22 kt (PRC)

Indian Device, 1974 : claimed 12-15 kt, estimated 4-6 kt
Vela Incident / TIROS-N Event *,1979 : estimated about 3 kt
Pakistani Device, 1998 : claimed 37-48 kt (2 bombs), estimated 9-12 kt (total)

All above except the PRC test used Pu-239 implosion-type devices. The French test presumably was a boosted device, with the three subsequent tests only testing the first stage (at 5 kt yield each time).

* - suspected joint Israeli/South-African first test, potentially tactical device.
Thanks. This is a really useful summary of the past tests.

For a sense of perspective, IIRC, it is estimated that a the current U.S. nuclear earth-penetrating weapon, the B61-Mod 11, has an estimated explosive power of 300 kt.
 
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