Regular Military in Unconventional Duties

Daelin

New Member
It's becoming apparent that the relief work for Hurrican Katrina will require extensive support from National Guard forces. It's possible, given the scale and unrest in Louisiana especially, that regular Army may have to be called in.

If this happens, what do you think will be the effect of the unusual duties on our forces, not only in addition to the weight of additional resource allocation, but the unusual type of work?
 

Snayke

New Member
I don't think helping during natural disasters is all that unusual. I mean, I watch news about natural disasters happening elsewhere like China and the army being called in to help citizens.

It's your duty to help your country in it's time of need, not just time of war. :p

But if the army are called in to help the police, I guess it would be very unusual to be firing at their own citizens since they would only be trained to take out people in uniform.
 

Daelin

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  • #3
That's part of it; I have heard rumors that gangs in SE La are armed and intend to fight. It's not normal to have to fight armed criminals, instead of a foreign army, or even the insurgency situation we see in Iraq.

Also, the mission is squishy right now. Nobody knows exactly how many troops will be used, where they will be stationed, how long they will be there, what balance of regulars and Guard would be used, etc. Hard to say how this would affect readiness for other conflicts which are going to be nothing like this.

China is a little different. My wife is from HK, and she says the PLA is nowhere near a pro force. They don't have much of a unified TOE, nor do units participate in cooperative exercises on much of a big scale. The Army in China spends a lot of time doing whatever the regional bigwigs want, from building dams and roads to clearing debris from fires and floods. It's a different environment completely.
 

Snayke

New Member
Aren't the troops coming going to be from regional bases? I don't see the point of bringing in a unit from across the country.
 

Dark Wind

New Member
I also agree that I don't see much of "unconventional" in the army being used for that. The job of soldiers is to protect their country from foreign and domestic threats.
A soldier isn't only a guy "shooting up bad guys". So it's usual to see soldiers helping civilians, that is their job in special situations when the civilian forces are overflown with duty.

I also wish the best for people in Louisiana, and I wish the US governement listened earlier to the very many warnings given by local/national/international scientists about Louisiana.
 

Daelin

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  • #6
Anyone notice that Mississippi and Alabama are NOT having the same problems as the New Orleans area, with riots and looters?
 

Dark Wind

New Member
Daelin said:
Anyone notice that Mississippi and Alabama are NOT having the same problems as the New Orleans area, with riots and looters?
I don't think this is on the same "scale" and same "importance".

About this, I'd like to ask people how they feel the US government intervention about what happend? Should US citizens be satisfied by the government intervention or not (knowing that the flooding was exepected)?
Also what do you think about Bush's attitude of taking two days of holidays before doing his job?

Also I wish the best to the victims and their families. I hope they'll go through it, every difficulty encountered and you manage to go through makes you stronger.
 

Daelin

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I detect the off-board whiff of politics. Short answer, you need to look up "posse comitatus" to understand the transition of authority in these situations. But in functional response, I would remind you:

1. President Bush declared a 'State of Emergency' for Louisiana on August 27, two days before the hurricane hit New Orleans. This allowed for federal aid to be sent to Louisiana, as soon as State and Local authorities requested it.

2. At that same time, Bush requested the Louisiana Governor also declare a 'State of Emergency', and that the New Orleans Mayor order a Mandatory Evacuation. At that time, neither the Governor nor Mayor did this, although Mayor Nagin held a press conference to suggest a voluntary evacuation of New Orleans, which was largely ignored.

3. On August 28, the Governor of Louisiana ordered state disaster forces be made ready, but did not request federal aid or National Guard from outside the state. Mayor Nagin finally ordered a mandatory evacuation from New Orleans at 5 PM Sunday evening, just 13 and a half hours before the storm wave hit, and far less time than was necessary to get half a million people out of the city.

4. When the hurricane hit New Orleans, evacuation routes had not been secured by city, county, or state authorities, and so there were bottlenecks and jams caused from lack of control. No permission was granted to federal authorities to assist until WEDNESDAY, at which time Guard forces waiting at the border were finally able to move in, which required clearing hundreds of miles of debris and wreckage in order to get to New Orleans.

It's amazing how many people believe that a disaster of this scale could be magically fixed by the presumed superhero-powers of a few individuals, but in fact this is a case where the response has been textbook, and the mistakes made by local and state authorities a sad fact in the timeline of this storm.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
Ok people, this is a defence forum here, not a place to discuss politics. Further comments related to politics will be deleted without notice.
 

Daelin

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  • #10
Just to clarify, Pathfinder, did my timeline of events and actions constitute politics? I was trying (and perhaps failed) to make the point that the National Guard cleared its way through a couple hundred miles of fallen power lines, trees, wrecked cars and other storm debris in about 48 hours from the time they were first allowed entry by the LA governor. The response time is excellent in that context.

This also brings up the unique cooperation of forces in this event, with civilian authorities like police and the state government acting in concert with the U.S. Coast Guard, the National Guard, and of course the ubiquitous Media, which effectively acts as an opposition force in these situations...
 

Dark Wind

New Member
My bad, this wasn't a "political attack". If anyone felt it as so, then I truly apoligize. I was expecting reactions on a tactical point of view about deployement of rescue forces a bit long to react.

I really don't mind about politics, this situation has nothing to do with politic, I don't care much about politicians (I don't even vote).

Personnally I'm impressed from TV news and several policemen or rescue personnel in the area claiming the great lack of means.
But hopefully now "real" means are deployed and let's hope this will continue.

And Daelin: it doesn't require "super-hero powers" to be prepared for an expected flooding but tactical means...

PS: I apologize again if any
"pro-Bush" felt it as an attack.
 

Daelin

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  • #12
"Expected flooding" yeah right.


Louisiana was told the Hurricane would turn North and hit the Florida panhandle as last as Saturday morning (the 27th). When Katrina turned SOUTH instead or North around noon, the NWS went into Oh-Shoot* mode, and declared an alert for the entire Gulf Coast. Louisiana was not know to be the likely landfall until around 4-5 PM Saturday, roughly 38 hours before the storm surge hit. With an estimated 96 hours required to get the bulk of New Orleans out in an evacuation, that kind of kills the deal for everyone who wasn't either psychic or addicted to weather disaster preparation.

Add to that the extant Hurricane plan New Orleans drew up was only useful for up to a Category 3, and even then only if the dikes held, and you have the classic Cluster-Fudge*, especially since the Mayor did not even bother to put the plan into action. That means the first responders were dealing with a huge mass of angry, frightened people. Anyone with experience addressing refugees will tell you that multiplies the difficulty of your operations. When the looters got hold of guns and started firing on the helicopters, that really poured gas on the fire.

The more I look into this, the more impressed I am with the speed, cohesion, and discipline of the Guard, both Coast and National.





(* language cleaned up)
 
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