China's military power

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long live usa

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some say china is rising at a rate to challenge American military power and it already has become a major reginal power i want to know your opinions on its military power here is mine
PLA:pockets of exellance are starting to pop up all over its equipment is up to date and once its t-99s go into large batch production it will have a very good MBT,certainly enough to handle reginal crisis or one in tibet

PLAN:well the navy is not up to snuff with japan's and its offensive projection is limited but certainly able to handle coast defense,also its power will increase with the adition of carriers perhaps the varvag?

PLAAF:the sukhoi numbers have reached some 280 aircraft and it purchased some 30 IL-76 transport planes and 8 IL-78 tankers these numbers will grow increasing the power of the PLAAF and making it a more modern force although i dont know how good the older upgraded MiG 21s would do but the PLAAF is certainly becoming a modern more powerful force
so please i would like to know your opinions
 
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Big-E

Banned Member
Wow! I coud write a small book on what I think of the PLA. How about asking a specific question... this topic is too broad.;)
 

long live usa

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well you could talk about what ever you want the PLA the PLAAF or PLAN,it does not have to be about all aspects of the board,just what you think of training and power of any branch,what did you have in mind?
 

Waylander

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If I look at the defence buget of the US and at that of China there is no chance the PLA is closing the gap in the near future not even if you take the hidden budgte into account.
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
Waylander said:
If I look at the defence buget of the US and at that of China there is no chance the PLA is closing the gap in the near future not even if you take the hidden budgte into account.
I think that what some forget is that China is in catch up mode for the most part, and that is expensive when you are tail end to the USA.
 

Totoro

New Member
Just what does it mean for you when you say china may challenge US military might? It all lies in the mission, the purpose of military. I don't know about future, but right now china is concentrating on home defense and limited power projection over its immediate neighbours, mainly taiwan. US on the other hand has a different mission for its armed forces - projection of force all over the world, being able to fight few wars at once.

Taking that into account, it would be safe to say that china wont be able to catch up with US world power projection capability in a long, long, long time. Save for some catastrophy in the US. On the other hand, if we're talking about a war in immediate neighborhood of china or even strikes on china itself - china is already a strong opponent, even today.

While US forces are bigger and better, there is just no way to put them all to work at once, attacking china. Which is why allies in that region would be important but the geography can often dicatate politics in such a case and it's unlikely than any other country than japan would truly stand on US side unless already attacked by china. Of course, japan alone has a mighty force which is quite capable of defening its mainland from chinese attack.

But lets not compare china to US. lets compare china with china. In last 15 years the advances made in all of the services have been monumental. Biggest advances, however, have been made in doctrine. Leaving the massive attack cold war philosophy of the 50s and 60s, chinese have fully accepted the information age warfare, of knowing what and where your enemies are, networking your own forces and doing precise strikes instead of massed waves. Problem is - the equipment just isnt there in enough numbers for such doctrine to be used exclusively and fully. Greater spending for military which has ben going on for more than a decade and isn't showing signs of slowing down is going to take care of that, with all of the chinese forces being fully dedicated to networked information age warfare by 2020. Certain services like PLAAF and SAM/AA networks will get there sooner.

PLA equipment inventory is just so huge that is unrealistic to expect that older items will be replaced any time soon. What is happening, however, is modernization of older systems like putting new sights and comm equipment on old tanks as well as gun launched guided missiles. Basically, while a good deal of tank and artillery pieces may still be old even in 2010 or 2015 they will use modern aiming systems with guided munitions, with the vehicles networked for greater efficiency. Relatively small number of helicopters for a force of PLA's size is currently one of biggest shortcomings, that will take at least a decade to remedy.

PLAN seems to know what it wants and is sticking to it. blue water power projection is not its mission. Building and running such huge fleet is just too expensive for china right now. But the technology for it is getting there. Dedicated AAW ships are being introduced, plenty of ASuW resources are already there but with a rather large hole in the ASW role which, again, will take at least a decade to get patched up. Submarine force is already the strongest dieselsub force in the world, good for littoral defensive warfare. deep sea offensive strikes are, however, still far away, with new nuclear subs only being tested and it'll again be decade till any sensible force will be available.

PLAAF seems to be going through quickest change, and rightly so, as its been clear for decades now just how decisive air superiority can be. J11 is ongoing production, j10 too, jh7 and h6 for PLANAF are being produced. Older planes like j8 and j7, if deemed suitable, are modernized with uptodate avionics and weapons. Biggest issues of the past are being adressed as we speak - AWACS fleet is being built up, turbofan engines are finally getting produced (for decades a weak spot of chinese engineering) tankers getting introduced, albeit in not great numbers, even with the russian il-78s. 5th gen fighter development has been underway for years and depending on when first flight is made - could be anything from 2010 to 2020, it will truly usher PLAAF into the era of technological near parity with anything else offered out there. I say near parity as its obvious that as long as US is spending several times more money on R&D than anyone else, actual parity will never be reached.

Oh, and j10 sure does have potential to have greater capabilities than su27. It really depends on the version though. if we comapre the original su27, its already vastly superior, with only range being on sukhoi's side. Of course with all the new versions, su35, j11b and what not - the line of who's better keeps constantly changing. In the end, with equal level tech applied, j10 will always be limited by its smaller size when it comes to range and payload, radar and other avionics space. Its design, however, is inherently somewhat better for dogfights at higher altitudes.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Waylander said:
If I look at the defence buget of the US and at that of China there is no chance the PLA is closing the gap in the near future not even if you take the hidden budgte into account.
Just look at naval procurement. They are building twice as many hulls as the US but spend 1/6th the cost of procurement. I'm not saying they equal capability but if you multiply the PLAN by 12 which equals a dollar for dollar basis you might be getting close to force equalizers. What I'm saying is the cost of U.S. platforms are begining to exceed their worth.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
Totoro said:
Just what does it mean for you when you say china may challenge US military might? It all lies in the mission, the purpose of military. I don't know about future, but right now china is concentrating on home defense and limited power projection over its immediate neighbours, mainly taiwan. US on the other hand has a different mission for its armed forces - projection of force all over the world, being able to fight few wars at once.

Taking that into account, it would be safe to say that china wont be able to catch up with US world power projection capability in a long, long, long time. Save for some catastrophy in the US. On the other hand, if we're talking about a war in immediate neighborhood of china or even strikes on china itself - china is already a strong opponent, even today.

While US forces are bigger and better, there is just no way to put them all to work at once, attacking china. Which is why allies in that region would be important but the geography can often dicatate politics in such a case and it's unlikely than any other country than japan would truly stand on US side unless already attacked by china. Of course, japan alone has a mighty force which is quite capable of defening its mainland from chinese attack.

But lets not compare china to US. lets compare china with china. In last 15 years the advances made in all of the services have been monumental. Biggest advances, however, have been made in doctrine. Leaving the massive attack cold war philosophy of the 50s and 60s, chinese have fully accepted the information age warfare, of knowing what and where your enemies are, networking your own forces and doing precise strikes instead of massed waves. Problem is - the equipment just isnt there in enough numbers for such doctrine to be used exclusively and fully. Greater spending for military which has ben going on for more than a decade and isn't showing signs of slowing down is going to take care of that, with all of the chinese forces being fully dedicated to networked information age warfare by 2020. Certain services like PLAAF and SAM/AA networks will get there sooner.

PLA equipment inventory is just so huge that is unrealistic to expect that older items will be replaced any time soon. What is happening, however, is modernization of older systems like putting new sights and comm equipment on old tanks as well as gun launched guided missiles. Basically, while a good deal of tank and artillery pieces may still be old even in 2010 or 2015 they will use modern aiming systems with guided munitions, with the vehicles networked for greater efficiency. Relatively small number of helicopters for a force of PLA's size is currently one of biggest shortcomings, that will take at least a decade to remedy.

PLAN seems to know what it wants and is sticking to it. blue water power projection is not its mission. Building and running such huge fleet is just too expensive for china right now. But the technology for it is getting there. Dedicated AAW ships are being introduced, plenty of ASuW resources are already there but with a rather large hole in the ASW role which, again, will take at least a decade to get patched up. Submarine force is already the strongest dieselsub force in the world, good for littoral defensive warfare. deep sea offensive strikes are, however, still far away, with new nuclear subs only being tested and it'll again be decade till any sensible force will be available.

PLAAF seems to be going through quickest change, and rightly so, as its been clear for decades now just how decisive air superiority can be. J11 is ongoing production, j10 too, jh7 and h6 for PLANAF are being produced. Older planes like j8 and j7, if deemed suitable, are modernized with uptodate avionics and weapons. Biggest issues of the past are being adressed as we speak - AWACS fleet is being built up, turbofan engines are finally getting produced (for decades a weak spot of chinese engineering) tankers getting introduced, albeit in not great numbers, even with the russian il-78s. 5th gen fighter development has been underway for years and depending on when first flight is made - could be anything from 2010 to 2020, it will truly usher PLAAF into the era of technological near parity with anything else offered out there. I say near parity as its obvious that as long as US is spending several times more money on R&D than anyone else, actual parity will never be reached.

Oh, and j10 sure does have potential to have greater capabilities than su27. It really depends on the version though. if we comapre the original su27, its already vastly superior, with only range being on sukhoi's side. Of course with all the new versions, su35, j11b and what not - the line of who's better keeps constantly changing. In the end, with equal level tech applied, j10 will always be limited by its smaller size when it comes to range and payload, radar and other avionics space. Its design, however, is inherently somewhat better for dogfights at higher altitudes.
wow, a really good post, totoro.

I think you made several great point. But I just want to emphasize one thing.

China is getting a lot of new and modern equipments, but it's only going to the elite units, the majority of PLA, PLAN and PLAAF are still using outdated stuff. Of course, the outdated stuff are getting a lot of upgrades, but PLA simply doesn't have the money to upgrade its entire force. My personal opionion is that it should just cut down on every force to smaller numbers, but that causes more headache like retirement pension for PLA and doesn't really help the budget all that much.
 

long live usa

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how do you rate a countrys military power?of course how much troops it has and how new its equipment is have somthing to do with it,but in my opinion its how fast a country can deploy its forces there is no one who can compare this with America no one,i remember that a chinese embassey was on mistake blown up i think this was in yugoslavia,then china made a threat that it would send 100,000 troops there,(again im not sure this info is true) but the point is it would be very very hard for china to do this,perhaps it will become easier for them as they increase thier small presance in south America and elsewere but not for a long while
of course landing troops on the ground in china would be very hard china just cant project forces over seas like America
 
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Waylander

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I think global deployment is one of the minor facts. You could build up an army which is able to take the US head on but it may still not have the ability to deploy many of its forces all over the world.
Transport assets are for sure a part of the formula but not that important like you say.
 

long live usa

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for America it does not even have to be how fast we can get them to a place, they are already near china in japan with i think some 17 American ships there as well,look at how fast we put down troops and equipment in saudi arabia,for china this would be a difficult task,im not saying how fast you can deploy your forces is important above all just a factor,but china can damn well defend itself and deal with reginal crisis with some ease
 

long live usa

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lets not forget about the J-XX 4th generation fighter program that could enter service in as early as nine years it is said that it will be able to out perform the EF-2000 typhoon and french rafale,but probably not the f/22 raptor,also some say the ukranian aircraft carrier varvag could possibly become fully operational although it was originally supposed to be an amusement park,or possibly a trainer?
 

Snayke

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I think there's one aircraft carrier that they are studying. However, any aircraft carriers that were sold to China were stripped weren't they? Not sure if they were stripped of engines but I don't doubt it.
 

Waylander

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Most experts think that they are going to convert the carrier into a training center for their future naval fighters.
It is no in really good shape and it could be cheaper to or build a new one than modernize the old one.
 

long live usa

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Snayke said:
I think there's one aircraft carrier that they are studying. However, any aircraft carriers that were sold to China were stripped weren't they? Not sure if they were stripped of engines but I don't doubt it.
they were striped (on the varvag) and it was agreed that it would not be used for military ends but i hear the private company that purchased it went"bankrupt"thus making the contract useless
 

long live usa

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ComSec said:
Hi everyone! Ok about the above procurements but what about force multipliers????
on the varvag?there is a separate thread regarding that in the naval section and you can also introduce yourself in introduction thread
 

ComSec

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Please bare with me while i familiarise here, however what i meant is that China is indeed modernising its forces but has no significant power projection capability, many remaining to do to achieve a qualitative leap. As far a their C4ISTAR capabilities are concerned -- almost a mystery, does anyone know of situation here?? Rgrds
 

Wild Weasel

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Well, in regards to the PRC's C4ISR, most likely they are in the process of research and development. Of all the areas that they must become competitive with the US, this is by far the most critical.

The US has developed and fielded mulitple generations of their command and control networks for decades already, and they are constantly pouring ever-increasing sums of money into maintaining their dominance in this field.
China on the other hand, is just getting started. And any future conflct between China, and anyone else, will be determined by who dominates the information high ground.

As to a showdown with the US herself, I'd say the likelyhood is no greater than the potential was for open conflict with the USSR during the Cold War. The cost would be immense for either nation, not only in terms of lives and destruction of national assets- but the long-term impact for the economy of the global community would most likely be tragically catastrophic.
Entire nations would be bankrupted, and fall to ruin, millions of innocent people all over the world would face starvation. This is actually a "brighter" course of events, because the worst-case scenario would probably involve nuclear warfare as well. If that is the case- even a "limited exchange" of warheads by either side- it's possible that the resulting global impact could be disasterous for many decades thereafter.
Much of mankind may be reduced to a lifestyle more like that of the late 19th century.

When you put it in those terms, and consider the power and influence of international corperations and global economic infrastructure on the governments of these two nations today- it's easy to believe that enough political pressure could be brought to bare to smother almost any potential US/PRC firefight.
They would only ( be allowed to ) go to war against each other over the most dire possible circumstances.
 
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