Grenade launchers - Effects
- Thread starter MM90
- Start date
Not sure if I understand the question exactly, however, developments in the area of shoulder fired rockets has continued, with multiple warheads types for different situations having been, and continue to be researched.
Also, its not just RPG's or other grenade types that are used in these roles. One weapon is a large caliber sniper rifle (12.7mm, I believe) that had a programmable round. You aimed at the target, pressed a button to get a range reading, "Dialed in" the thickness of the cover being used, and then you aimed to the left, right, or window opening near the target and fired. The round would travel the distance ranged plus the added on distance, then explode hoping to catch the target with fragments. Other rounds just punch through the cover where you estimate the target to be.
A new "bunker Busting" shoulder fired rocket (Preditor SRAM) has recently been unveiled as an upgrade for the SMAW (Shoulder-Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon) which can either breech the walls allowing troops to enter, or simply blows a hole in the wall, allowing a tandem warhead to enter and destroy the target. The SMAW has been used in Afghanistan and Iraq using thermobaric warheads.
Depends what you mean by a grenade launcher, since you included RPGs in your question.
Grenade launchers and rocket propelled grenades are really very different animals despite both having the word "grenade" in them.
The grenade launcher is a weapon that was designed to be able to project a explosive projectile with about the same capaibilites as a hand grenade to distances much greater than what a hand grenade could be thrown. It was also designed to suplement or replace rifle grenades (which do basically the same thing as grenade launchers using a different method).
A typical grenade launcher is a single shot, 30mm-40mm breach loading weapon, that mounts under a rifle and fires a roughly hand grenade sized HE-FRAG projectile with reasonable accuracy out to ~400m. There are also stand-alone single and multi-shot grenade launchers as well, but these are less common. GLs of this type are used to give infantry soldiers grenade capaibilites at longer ranges than with hand grenades, as well as cover dead space and provide some very limited organic indirect fire capaibilites. They can also deploy smoke, riot control agents and flares as well. High explosive dual purpose rounds (HEDP) provide some (very limited) light anti-armor capability.
In the 1960s the US developed the grenade machinegun (GMG) a.k.a automatic grenade launcher (AGL). These are currently large, belt-fed, crew served weapons firing high velocity 30mm-40mm projectiles out to ranges in excess of 1,000m. These weapons are used in the heavy machinegun role, and are very different than individual grenade launchers.
RPGs were developed primarily as light anti-tank weapons with thier origins in the WW2 Panzerfaust. They are essentially a high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) grenade with a rocket motor attached. The RPG-2/7/16 family is the archtypical RPG. They are a reloadable, shoulder fired light anti-tank weapon, but also possesing some anti-personal capabilities.
These have had a much greater impact on warfare than aformentioned individual grenades by making a individual infantryman a credible danger to armored fighting vehicles. RPGs are nothing new however, nor is their impact on war. The German Panzerfaust & Panzerschrek and US Bazooka were used to great effect in WW2, forcing both sides to adopt a more combined arms approach to armored warfare (i.e. you need infantry to keep the other guys infantry and thier RPGs away from the tanks). RPGs played a major role in Vietnam against US and ARVN armor, and the US deployed the very successsful M72 LAW at the same time (though with a lack of armored targets it was used more as a bunker buster or AP weapon).
Adrian
Grenade launchers and rocket propelled grenades are really very different animals despite both having the word "grenade" in them.
The grenade launcher is a weapon that was designed to be able to project a explosive projectile with about the same capaibilites as a hand grenade to distances much greater than what a hand grenade could be thrown. It was also designed to suplement or replace rifle grenades (which do basically the same thing as grenade launchers using a different method).
A typical grenade launcher is a single shot, 30mm-40mm breach loading weapon, that mounts under a rifle and fires a roughly hand grenade sized HE-FRAG projectile with reasonable accuracy out to ~400m. There are also stand-alone single and multi-shot grenade launchers as well, but these are less common. GLs of this type are used to give infantry soldiers grenade capaibilites at longer ranges than with hand grenades, as well as cover dead space and provide some very limited organic indirect fire capaibilites. They can also deploy smoke, riot control agents and flares as well. High explosive dual purpose rounds (HEDP) provide some (very limited) light anti-armor capability.
In the 1960s the US developed the grenade machinegun (GMG) a.k.a automatic grenade launcher (AGL). These are currently large, belt-fed, crew served weapons firing high velocity 30mm-40mm projectiles out to ranges in excess of 1,000m. These weapons are used in the heavy machinegun role, and are very different than individual grenade launchers.
RPGs were developed primarily as light anti-tank weapons with thier origins in the WW2 Panzerfaust. They are essentially a high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) grenade with a rocket motor attached. The RPG-2/7/16 family is the archtypical RPG. They are a reloadable, shoulder fired light anti-tank weapon, but also possesing some anti-personal capabilities.
These have had a much greater impact on warfare than aformentioned individual grenades by making a individual infantryman a credible danger to armored fighting vehicles. RPGs are nothing new however, nor is their impact on war. The German Panzerfaust & Panzerschrek and US Bazooka were used to great effect in WW2, forcing both sides to adopt a more combined arms approach to armored warfare (i.e. you need infantry to keep the other guys infantry and thier RPGs away from the tanks). RPGs played a major role in Vietnam against US and ARVN armor, and the US deployed the very successsful M72 LAW at the same time (though with a lack of armored targets it was used more as a bunker buster or AP weapon).
Adrian
Rifle mounted grenade launchers have been around for awhile - they first came into widespread usage by the US in the 1970s with the M203. The M203 replaed the stand alone M79 (which fired the same 40mm round), which in turn had replaced rifle-grenades in the early 1960s. Both the M79 and M203 were designed to perform the same role that rifle grenades had been filling since WW1 - which was to provide the infantry squad with a light weight HE projectile capability between the hand grendade and the mortar. This role was also filled by such weapons as the British 2" 'Commando' Mortar and the Japanese 50mm Grenade Projector (a.k.a. 'Knee Mortar').
All of these weapon systems give the infantry squad the ability to fire a small HE projectile, directly or indirectly, at much greater ranges than was possible with the hand grenade.
The modern grenade launcher's advantage over rifle grenades is greater effective range and accuracy. The projectiles are also smaller and less cumbersome, allowing the grenadier to carry more ammunition. Finally the rifle mounted GL doesn't interfere with the firing of the rifle the way a rifle-grenade does when it is a loaded.
Rifle-grenades do have a couple of advantages themselves - they can be much larger (not being limited to the diameter of the GL barrel) which means they can be more powerful (bigger HE charge), as well as have a much better AT capabilty (the greater the diameter of the shape charge, the more armor penetration).
The RPG was primarily intended as a light anit-tank weapons with a secondary AP role (Russian RPGs have HE-FRAG and Thermobaric rounds as well as HEAT). They have comparable effective ranges to grenade launchers and rifle grenades, but are much larger and bulkier and lack any indirect fire capability. RPGs are also notoriusly inaccurate, especially at longer ranges. The larger round (85mm for RPG-7) does give them a much better AT capability and for the HE-FRAG rounds, a much larger casulty radius over 30-40mm GL rounds.
How are they all used?
US doctrine puts 1 40mm under-barrell M203 or M320 GL in every 4-man Fire Team.
In some organizations the GL is carried by the team leader, in others by a dedicated grenadier. SOPs vary.
The GL is used to engage enemy targets behind cover, in defilade, inside of buildings. It is also used to cover deadspace and to fire smoke for marking. It is an excellent weapon for urban enviorments, giving the infantry the ability to accurately enagage targets in upper story windows and rooftops. In the past this would have been done less effectively with rifle-grenades or hand grenades.
The US equivilent to RPGs - the M136 AT-4, the M141 BDM (aka SMAW-D), the M72, and the Mk 153 SMAW (all rocket launchers) - are used in the current operating enviorment primarily to engage enemies behind cover, in buildings or caves, or in vehicles. All of these weapons, except the Mk 153, are single shot "disposable" weapons. The AT-4 and M72 were designed primarily to enage AFVs. The M141 is primairly a bunker buster, and the Mk 153 can fire both HEDP and HEAT rockets.
The RPG is a very popular weapon with all kinds of unconvential combatants (insurgents, militias, rebels, terrorists, etc.) becuase they are cheap , simple and everywhere. They tend to be the heaviest direct fire weapons these kinds of forces have access to, and are as a result are used for everything . They give unconventional forces a credible short ranged anti-armor capabilty (especially in close terrain like cities or mountains), when massed or volley fired act as a kind of pocket artillerty - great for initiaitng ambushes.
The RPG (along with the mortar) is the poor man's artillery.
On potential game changer is the new US XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement (CDTE) System. The XM25 is a 25mm semi-automatic, magazine fed GL that uses an advanced sights and a targeting system to accuratelty fire electonically fused 25mm airbursting greandes out to nearly 800m. They are being field tested in Afghanistan and have proven to be devestatingly lethal against the Taleban. The airburst feature detonates the grenade ~1m above the target, rendering traditional cover (i.e. hiding behind a rock or wall) ineffective.
Adrian
S&T Daewoo K11
The S&T Daewoo K11 is an assault rifle chambered to fire 5.56mm rounds, as well as 20mm air-burst shells from its overbarrel launcher.[3] Two conventional 20mm shells either detonate immediately on impact or on a timed fuse after impact. A third type of shell is controlled by the weapon's integrated electronics to explode a few meters from the target, yielding an air burst effect capable of killing targets within a 6m area and seriously wounding those within a 8m area. Users enter a range at which the shell is to detonate, allowing targets in ditches, in buildings, or behind walls to be destroyed without requiring the shell to strike the target
This gun is used in korea and i just wanna ask u guys that will this gun be useful when the Korean war continues???
The S&T Daewoo K11 is an assault rifle chambered to fire 5.56mm rounds, as well as 20mm air-burst shells from its overbarrel launcher.[3] Two conventional 20mm shells either detonate immediately on impact or on a timed fuse after impact. A third type of shell is controlled by the weapon's integrated electronics to explode a few meters from the target, yielding an air burst effect capable of killing targets within a 6m area and seriously wounding those within a 8m area. Users enter a range at which the shell is to detonate, allowing targets in ditches, in buildings, or behind walls to be destroyed without requiring the shell to strike the target
This gun is used in korea and i just wanna ask u guys that will this gun be useful when the Korean war continues???
I have always wondered why no one has ever made a under-barrel launcher for rifle grenades. It does not look that difficult and it would have the advantage of:
- Not blocking the gun barrel with the grenade.
- Allowing the use of heavier grenades than permitted in the 40mm.
- Using ballistic cartridges instead of bullet trap grenades means they are lighter, with higher velocities and longer range. The ballistic cartridges can also be better matched to the grenade for more performance improvements.
I think the main attraction with the 40mm was that it is relatively easy to carry useful quantities. Where as rifle grenade are cumbersome no matter how user friendly the launcher is(if it were to be re-engineered to be attached under the barrel rather than on it).
Maybe a French user could elaborate on the pros and cons of rifle grenades.They will have first hand experience. Why did the french keep them? seems odd
Maybe a French user could elaborate on the pros and cons of rifle grenades.They will have first hand experience. Why did the french keep them? seems odd
Rifle grenades were big, bulky things and you could not carry many. The 30mm and 40mm are much lighter and you can carry a few of them in your pocket.
You still have to launch the grenade, and rifle grenades first required a special blank to be loaded prior to firing. After enough soldiers blew themselves up by forgetting to load the special blank round, they went to the bullet trap grenade.
The 30mm and 40mm combined the propellent in the grenade cartridge making it quicker to load and easier to use. The launchers are also more accurate than the rifle launched grenades.
The old grenades also created very high pressures and caused terrific recoil.
In many cases this damaged the rifle over a short time. The British had dedicated Enfields with wire reinforcement to help prevent damage from firing rifle grenades. The new grenades use a much lower pressure when firing and do not damage the launcher.
Why do some countries still use old rifle type grenades? I would bet its because they still have a bunch of them. The Serbians and Bosnians used them on the M59/66's during their war in the 90's.
It gets even more confusing when you consider that a lot of what Russia calls rocket-propelled flamethrowers, are also grenade launchers.
They're used in a role similar to but not quite that of an HMG. A .50 cal can do a lot less of defilade fire then a Mk19. It doesn't have a minimum arming distance and deals a lot less collateral damage, so it can effectively be used as a turret mount for MOUT, where as a Mk19 would be unadvisable. A .50cal is realistically man-portable (at least in theory). A Mk19 is a different story (75.6lbs receiver....
). Not to mention the ammo is much much heavier. With a Mk19 you also have a much more significant anti-vehicle capability then .50cal APIs.A .50cal M8 API has 25mm penetration RHA at 200m, 19mm at 600m, 13mm at 1000m, and 8mm at 1500m. M903 SLAP has 32mm at 300m.
A BMP-3 allegedly has 35mm RHA front armor making it almost immune to .50cal.
A Mk-19 HEDP has 3" armor pen at any range, as long as the impact is between 0-45 degrees. That 76.2mm. Over twice the SLAP round, and easily enough to put holes in our BMP-3.
At the end of the day if I'm in a COIN situation, or MOUT, I'd much rather have a .50. If I'm expecting a heavy assault by a conventional opponent I'd much rather have a Mark.
Fewer rounds but bigger payloads. A rifle grenade round weighs 2x to 3x that of a 40mm grenade, but has 4x to 8x the payload and terminal performance.
- 40mm DP can penetrate 50mm of armor. HEAT rifle grenades can penetrate 300mm
- 40mm HE has a kill radius of 5m. Rifle grenades are 10m to 15m.
- Smoke rifle grenades are good for obscuring targets. 40mm smoke grenades are for marking targets.
But you would now be using a dedicated launcher that cannot fire the standard rifle cartridge. Much safer.
Quicker to load and easier to use, yes. Also longer ranged.
But I suspect that the greater accuracy of the 40mm is mostly due to having a dedicated sight, something that current rifle grenades lack. That could be remedied in a dedicated under barrel launcher, as it was with the 40mm. There are also computing sights with built in laser range finders coming out that will enhance the performance of both.
Were those for the modern rifle grenades, or the old style ‘cup’ launcher for the Mills bomb? Just asking.
The France and Israel still use them a lot and are producing new designs.
Essentially what you are describing is a larger bore grenade launcher then.
Yes, in my example of the Wire Wrapped Enfield they were usually using the Mills Bomb "Cup" launcher type. However, the recoil is still very bad on the more modern rifles also. Videos you may see of them firing from the shoulder are dummy grenades usually being fired by parade blanks for the camera, not the intended ballistic cartridge that originally came with the grenade.
Just to clarify – When I stated “Quicker to load and easier to use, yes. Also longer ranged.”, I was referring to the 40mm grenade launcher, not rifle grenades.
The "Ultimate" rifle grenade:
Rifleman's Assault Weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Brunswick Rifleman’s Assault Weapon (RAW)
Adrian
Rifleman's Assault Weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Brunswick Rifleman’s Assault Weapon (RAW)
Adrian
IronsightSniper
Member
They basically can FUBAR anything on the battlefield right now.
The RPG-28, for example, is a disposable launcher that can fire a round that penetrates over a meter of steel.
The RPG-29 is a reloadable launcher, that can fire similarly devastating rounds, can penetrate 750 mm of steel.
The RPO-M is perhaps, one of the funnest weapons in use today. It's a launcher purely designed around thermobaric projectiles, and has seen heavy use within the Russian Spetsnaz. Complete devastation to whatever it hits. In fact, after watching some videos of Spetsnaz ops in the Caucuses, their basic strategy is, 1) Hide behind cover 2) Suppress the enemy with LMG fire 3) Fire a thermobaric rocket at enemy position 4) Mop up
In fact, the funny thing is, the Russians have developed pretty much every rocket you'd need for the RPG-7. It got your generic PG-7V, which you can do whatever with, really. Than you got your PG-7VR, which can penetrate the backside of any tank. Next you have your OG-7V, which can disperse frag like a boss. And finally, you guessed it, it got a TBG-7V, which has a thermobaric warhead that can kill troops wearing NIJ level IV armor within a 10 m radius.
Of course, the elephant in the room that I'm not mentioning is the RShG-2 (and modern derivative, the RMG). The RMG is a unique weapon in that it has a tandem-HEAT/Thermobaric warhead. The first warhead, a small HEAT charge, penetrates about 120 mm of steel, and than a thermobaric charge detonates within say, a bunker, completely neutralizing anyone nearby. It truly is, a cool weapon.
The RPG-28, for example, is a disposable launcher that can fire a round that penetrates over a meter of steel.
The RPG-29 is a reloadable launcher, that can fire similarly devastating rounds, can penetrate 750 mm of steel.
The RPO-M is perhaps, one of the funnest weapons in use today. It's a launcher purely designed around thermobaric projectiles, and has seen heavy use within the Russian Spetsnaz. Complete devastation to whatever it hits. In fact, after watching some videos of Spetsnaz ops in the Caucuses, their basic strategy is, 1) Hide behind cover 2) Suppress the enemy with LMG fire 3) Fire a thermobaric rocket at enemy position 4) Mop up
In fact, the funny thing is, the Russians have developed pretty much every rocket you'd need for the RPG-7. It got your generic PG-7V, which you can do whatever with, really. Than you got your PG-7VR, which can penetrate the backside of any tank. Next you have your OG-7V, which can disperse frag like a boss. And finally, you guessed it, it got a TBG-7V, which has a thermobaric warhead that can kill troops wearing NIJ level IV armor within a 10 m radius.
Of course, the elephant in the room that I'm not mentioning is the RShG-2 (and modern derivative, the RMG). The RMG is a unique weapon in that it has a tandem-HEAT/Thermobaric warhead. The first warhead, a small HEAT charge, penetrates about 120 mm of steel, and than a thermobaric charge detonates within say, a bunker, completely neutralizing anyone nearby. It truly is, a cool weapon.
winnyfield
New Member
Corps to field more grenade launchers - Marine Corps News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Marine Corps Times
On the M32 six-shot grenade launcher:
On the M32 six-shot grenade launcher:
According to:
http://tucson.com/news/business/ray...cle_aff67d37-d31c-5eaf-a331-a1987b3bda21.html
Raytheon is building a laser-guided missile called "Pike" that can be fired
from a rifle-mounted M203 grenade launcher.
Considering that you can carry several normal grenades in the space that one of
these missiles takes up, and that you need a laser designator to use it, is it really
worth it?
According to the article, the missile is 17 inches long. Assuming it has a warhead
about equal to a 40mm rifle grenade, about how much range would something
like this have? This is an important consideration, since Pike is *not* a fire-and-
forget weapon, you'd want it to have enough reach so that you can use it from far
enough away to avoid enemy counter-fire.
http://tucson.com/news/business/ray...cle_aff67d37-d31c-5eaf-a331-a1987b3bda21.html
Raytheon is building a laser-guided missile called "Pike" that can be fired
from a rifle-mounted M203 grenade launcher.
Considering that you can carry several normal grenades in the space that one of
these missiles takes up, and that you need a laser designator to use it, is it really
worth it?
According to the article, the missile is 17 inches long. Assuming it has a warhead
about equal to a 40mm rifle grenade, about how much range would something
like this have? This is an important consideration, since Pike is *not* a fire-and-
forget weapon, you'd want it to have enough reach so that you can use it from far
enough away to avoid enemy counter-fire.
FormerDirtDart
Well-Known Member
Raytheon seems to imply it will have significantly more range than the typical 40mm grenade:
...“When you have the capability to send something a mile and a half and hit within five yards or less of a bad guy, you are achieving what our troops have always wanted – take out a specific target and minimize collateral damage,"...
Though I question the ability to fire it from an M203, unless it is somehow muzzle loaded.