Is the Libyan Air Force still a threat ?

[contedicavour]

Being Italian, I still watch with much interest the developments in North Africa. Since a couple of years Gheddafi has apparently become a friend of the West again, eliminated its stock of WMD, apologized and paid for all the terrorist acts its government did, etc.
However, just in case, in what real condition is the once-powerful Lybian air force ? How many of its remaining MIG-25 and MIG-23 and Mirage F-1 and SU-24 are still operational and with what missiles (nothing worse than the AA-6 acrid and AA-8 or do they have newer missiles) ?
What if Gheddafi spent some of its huge oil money to do as the Algerians and buy MIG-29ST and SU-27 with AA-10 and AA-12 missiles ? Would that be a threat our Typhoons (or the Rafale) could easily counter ?
Any input is welcome

 

[Burner]

First of all, any air force is a threat, at least on paper. The question is how big is this threat and how real is it. The first thing that crossed my mind after reading the title of this thread was "was it ever a real threat?!".
Yes, on paper, the Libyan Air Force ( Al Quwwat al Jawwiya al Jamahiriya al Arabia al Libyya) possed a small threat for the US Mediteranean Fleet and a bigger threat for some of it's neighbours, but from what I know, the reality is very different.

Their hardware is old (e.g. MiG-21, Su-22), poorly maintained and some aircraft are somewhat less potent than the versions that were used or are used by the russians. The Mirages would be of some use in combat if they would have well trained pilots, but they don't have them. So they had some out-dated aircraft, and from what I know they still use the majority of the aircraft that they were using in the 80's, without any major upgrade. Also, the serviceability is quite low. I may be wrong, as there are few informations available.

Even if they have new hardware, they would still be impared by their pilots. An aircraft is only as good as the pilot who flyies it. And Libyan AF pilots are really bad. They were cases when pilots avoided flying at night because they feared they wouldn't be able to find their way back to the air base, and they have almost no combat experience, they are under-trained. We've seens what happened to Libyan fighters when they were engaged by the USN's Tomcats.

I could get into some details here, but the bottom line is that the Libyan Air Force is no match for any NATO country (with the exception of countries who have a tiny or no AF at all like the Baltic countries and Iceland), including, of course, the US and Canada.

I'm looking forward to read some details about the current order of battle of the Libyan AF and any possible upgrading programs, as I couldn't find any recent info on these.

 

[SABRE]

they no longer have their mirage-3 and 5 aircrafts and the F-1 series is useless in terms of what Europe has now. There was roumer of them being interested in Mirage2000 but that not possible now since dessault has shut down the mirage2000 production.

They couldnt do any thing in the past to Europe, America or NATO; when they had proper airforce and their aircrafts were up to date. How do u expect them to be any threat when the aircrafts they r flying are dying around the world.

Libyan defence is quickly dying, no wounder Qaddafi is putting his arms and will down to west.

 

[Big-E]

It will be interesting to see what he buys now that the embargoes have been lifted.

 

[Burner]

Old and poor info

Sabre, I thought so too, but I found some info on the web and it was saying they operate Mirages. Mainly Vs and F-1s, but I think they were some IIIs also. Whatever, I think I'll look on the CIA's site.:unknown
About the Mirage 2000... I guess that if they were serious, Armee de'l Air would have had some to sell, especially now, with the introduction of the Rafale, but who knows. They will not get top aircraft for sure, at least not from Europe or the US. And even if they'd have the best hardware there is, if their pilots are still that poorly trained, it's all in vain. I'm not saying that they are idiots and the US rules, that's just childish, but the Libyans have some BIG problems with their AF.

 

[SABRE]

Well they need to get new fighters. They already have experience with French fighters, so they can get some 2nd hand Mirage2000-5 from France. May be Dessault can re-open facility to build them knew. They have only France, Russia and China to look up to.

France = Mirage2000/5
Russia = MiG-29, MiG-29/35 TVC, Su-27, Su-30
China (also Pakistan) = FC-1/JF-17

Thats the best available. If Qaddafi is looking for a good airforce which can with standing Europe and Americans, my advice would be Su-27/30 from Russia for high performance air superiority fighter and since I am a Pakistan I would like to see them buy FC-1/JF-17 and earn us some money .

Well to be serious they should go for Su-30.

 

[Big-E]

since I am a Pakistan I would like to see them buy FC-1/JF-17 and earn us some money .

How about some F-16s, US needs to make some money to.

 

[Burner]

[...]
France = Mirage2000/5
Russia = MiG-29, MiG-29/35 VTOL, Su-27, Su-30
China (also Pakistan) = FC-1/JF-17

Thats the best available. If Qaddafi is looking for a good airforce which can with standing Europe and Americans, my advice would be Su-27/30 from Russia for high performance air superiority fighter and since I am a Pakistan I would like to see them buy FC-1/JF-17 and earn us some money .

Well to be serious they should go for Su-30.

Yeah, and since I am a Romanian, I would like to see them modernizing their MiG-21s in the Elbit Systems/Aerostar MiG-21 Lancer programme and since they would be into Romanian aircraft, they should also buy some IAR-99 for school, advanced training and light attack and if they get the Fulcrum, it would be really nice to turn it into MiG-29 Sniper, as this would bring extra cash to my country... and also to Israel.

Ok, enough joking. You're forgetting that they also need good, trained pilots to fly those aircraft. C'mon, their pilots have problems with navigation, fighting is out of the question, really. The Russians didn't had problems navigating in their aircraft, why should the Libyans have? I'm not saying they are naturally bad pilots, I find the idea of "naturally bad pilot" to be nonsense, but they should change their training programme and put more pilots in aircraft, often. Otherwise...

Sabre, since when has the MiG-35 VTOL capability?! It has trust-vectoring engines and a very short takeoff run, but not VTOL. Those are Harrier, F-35, Yak-38 etc.

 

[Big-E]

Ok, enough joking. You're forgetting that they also need good, trained pilots to fly those aircraft. C'mon, their pilots have problems with navigation, fighting is out of the question, really. The Russians didn't had problems navigating in their aircraft, why should the Libyans have? I'm not saying they are naturally bad pilots, I find the idea of "naturally bad pilot" to be nonsense, but they should change their training programme and put more pilots in aircraft, often. Otherwise...

Perhaps they should buy some trainers first.

 

[SABRE]

Sabre, since when has the MiG-35 VTOL capability?! It has trust-vectoring engines and a very short takeoff run, but not VTOL. Those are Harrier, F-35, Yak-38 etc.

oops sorry ... i ment to say TVC not VTOL. I'll correct it.

 

[Burner]

Perhaps they should buy some trainers first.

The current trainers would do the job if they would have a better training programme, but if they want some advanced training aircraft compatible with their new combat aircraft, say... a mix of Russian and French aircraft (just a scenario), they should go for the IAR-99, L-159, MiG-AT, in this order of preference, and I'm not saying that because I'm from Romania, but the experts consider the IAR-99 Şoim to be the third best advanced training aircraft, and the Hawk, whilst a very good trainer, it lacks eastern weapons compatibility.

 

[Mercenary]

LOL When were they ever a threat? Oh, maybe to Chad! That's what the French are for, someone's got kick some arse in Africa.

Since France has a stellar reputation for selling advanced weaponary to just about any nation with cash, I bet Libya will buy French again and ALOT more Russian advanced goodies.

France is in the runner up competion for India's new Fighter deal of 126 aircraft which means the MIRAGE 2005E/D Mk II is on the table for Libya as well, possibly even the RAFALE?

France would also be offering Helicopters such as AS-532UL Cougar, AS-555 Fennec, AS-565 Panther, and others.

Russian Su-30 MKIs, Su-27 Flankers, Su-25UBK Frogfoots, Mig-29SMTs, Mi-35s, Mi-26s, Mi-17s, etc. Any of these types or ALL would be a boon for Libya to procure. When the YAK-130 finally goes into production it'd be a serious option. Maybe if the Libyan AF orders Mi-28N Night Havoc Attack Helicopters that would set into motion this lethal machine for series procurement in Russia herself.

Libya is most likely in the market for new Tactical Transport Aircraft in the class of either new An-74 Coalers, CN or IPTN-235s, 'surplus' An-32 Clines, etc. Maybe even a few AAR Tankers, IL-78 Midas?

Lots of opporutunities for many weapon's firms to make some serious cash flow here. They probably don't have alot of cash to burn up-front after coming out of an Embargo, but if Libya does noe of Western style 10-to-15-year weaponary procurement plans than Russia and France are in there.

And it would be smart for Libya (like in the past) to diversify their inventory procurements.

 

[Mercenary]

The Romanian Jet Trainer uses alot of Elbit avionics i.e., Israeli made.

Do you really think LIBYA under G' would buy anything with an Israeli label/content in it? LOL

The Mig AT has not even been accepted by the parent nation who builds it, the Russian Air Force does not want it. They are going to procure the more advanced YAK-130. Algeria is the only country that is rumored to have bought a few Mig ATs.

The L-159B is definetly out because of Boeing's investment of electronics used and ALL the politics that would surround that purchase to Libya.

British HAWK Mk 100s are very pricey nearly $15 Million US each! Overkill for what they are, for that price you 'ought to get supersonic.

What are past and current relations between Libya and Italy? The latter have not one but two Combat Jet Trainers to offer. The MB-339FD and the radar equipped, strike capable AMX-ATA. The latter is also manufacturered in Brazil and Brazil has sold ALOT of weapons to Arab Muslim nations in the past from heavy armored cars to multipule Rocket launchers to APCs. I bet Brazil would have no political fallout to worry about selling weapons to Libya.

 

[Burner]

1)First, a few words about the Şoim (Falcon in english, but they translate it "Hawk", I have no idea why, but whatever)...
The Romanian trainer, IAR-99C Şoim, is nothing more than a heavily upgraded version of the original IAR-99 (sometimes refered to as IAR-99 Standard).
The 99 is designed by the National Institute of Aerospace Research "Elie Carafoli" and manufactured at Avioane Craiova. The engine is a Rolls-Royce Viper 632-41M produced under license at Turbomecanica. Components are also manufactured at Aerostar Bacău, IAR Braşov, and Aerofina Bucharest. The first prototype flew in '85.
The Israelis came with the advanced avionics only, so it's not an Israeli aircraft, as the L-159 in not an American aircraft and so on.

2)When I said they should buy the Şoim It was purely on technological, cost/performance ratio and east/west weapon duality, it was all politics aside.
If we take politics into account, I doubt that the Israelis would be happy with us selling advanced trainers full of Israeli avionics to an Arab country, the L-159 sells to Libya would be "bad" thing to do from the US point of view and the Hawk 100 is out cause of price and also cause I guess the Brits would not be very excited about selling aircraft to Libya. And of course the Yak is better than the MiG-AT, but if I'm not mistaken, the first is not in production, while the later is ready to be sold.
The MB-339 would also do the job, but it's not in top 3 and has only western weapons, an imparement for what would still be a Russian aircraft-dominated Libyan AF. The AMX would be an option too.

 

[umair]

Sabre, I thought so too, but I found some info on the web and it was saying they operate Mirages. Mainly 5s and F-1s, but I think they were some IIIs also. Whatever, I think I'll look on the CIA's site.:unknown
About the Mirage 2000... I guess that if they were serious, Armee de'l Air would have had some to sell, especially now, with the introduction of the Rafale, but who knows. They will not get top aircraft for sure, at least not from Europe or the US. And even if they'd have the best hardware there is, if their pilots are still that poorly trained, it's all in vain. I'm not saying that they are idiots and the US rules, that's just childish, but the Libyans have some BIG problems with their AF.

Actually we (Pakista ie) picked up their Mirage III and Vs for our airforce. Low houred birds at bargain prices with seal packed spare engines. Some were upgraded and the rest will be used for spares.

 

[contedicavour]

Who's ready to sell what to Libya...

Well well... I guess France has already proposed Rafale to Libya. Not a single country has ordered Rafales for now outside France, even though Algeria is rumoured to be considering it...
I think Mirage 2000s second-hand from France for the moment are not an option because the delays in the Rafale programme are already stretching the fighter force of the Armée de l'Air very very thin.
Russians are certainly around, and mercenary pilots to fly SU-27 and MIG-29 certainly are available (if there were enough to pilot Eritrean and Ethiopian jets a few years ago, Libya can surely pay more to attract enough pilots).

Concerning my country, we've sold very recently to Libya Agusta 109 helicopters for search & rescue and coast guard missions. The latest versions of MB-339CDs could be next, though the M346 would be even better, especially as this very advanced trainer has been jointly developed with Sukhoi...

One last thing, even Mr Blair went see Gheddafi last year in Tripoli. Who says the Typhoon itself could not be for sale to Libya... with European missiles such as Meteor and IRIS-T...

cheers