How good are the Israeli Airforce pilots?
- Thread starter kmandpn
- Start date
Not that that would be difficult.
Without a doubt. Look at the IAF strike on the Osirak Nuclear Power Plant in 1981. The Israeli pilots trained for weeks in flying their F-16s and F-15s as close to the ground as they could get, without any help from terrain following or avoidance radar to stay under Iraqi radar. And as you say, the Israelis are the most combat proven of the lot. IAF pilots get far more opportunites to test their skills in actual combat than any other Western pilots.
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The last real air-air combat Israeli pilots took part in was 1985, IIRC. I'm not sure if there are any Israeli pilots flying today with air-air combat experience.111Lover said:Not that that would be difficult.
Without a doubt. Look at the IAF strike on the Osirak Nuclear Power Plant in 1981. The Israeli pilots trained for weeks in flying their F-16s and F-15s as close to the ground as they could get, without any help from terrain following or avoidance radar to stay under Iraqi radar. And as you say, the Israelis are the most combat proven of the lot. IAF pilots get far more opportunites to test their skills in actual combat than any other Western pilots.
They have plenty of recent experience of bombing, but against almost non-existent air defences. Currently flying pilots in several other countries have similar experience, & some have more experience against air defences.
vijayshimla
New Member
How good are the Israeli Pilots
Inflamatory and baseless accusation. You are new on this forum and have already started to show your biases and hatred immediately. This is the only warning you will get.
I am sure the Israeli pilots are better than USAF pilots, the biggest reason will be motivation- Israeli Pilot knows if he fails, his country, his dear and loved ones will be messacred in cold blood by Islamists.kmandpn said:
Inflamatory and baseless accusation. You are new on this forum and have already started to show your biases and hatred immediately. This is the only warning you will get.
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Yes, they don't have much more real combat experiences than many other nation's pilots. So i guess tehy are just as good or as bad as every other pilot with the same amount of training and flying hours.
When it comes to experience i wager that the turkish and greek pilots get the most of that.
I heard the pilots of their airforces breach each other's air space and engage very often. They never really shoot each other, but almost on a daily basis they do "dry dogfights" in which they try to scare each other by assuming radar lock on and fire ready positions on each other without shooting.
It is a constant "i could kill you now with a push of a button"-situation sice decades now.
When it comes to experience i wager that the turkish and greek pilots get the most of that.
I heard the pilots of their airforces breach each other's air space and engage very often. They never really shoot each other, but almost on a daily basis they do "dry dogfights" in which they try to scare each other by assuming radar lock on and fire ready positions on each other without shooting.
It is a constant "i could kill you now with a push of a button"-situation sice decades now.
Israeli Air Force Record
The answer to all of this is in the record itself. In 52 years of Israeli Air Force history the IAF has shot down 1,250 enemy aircraft in Air2Air combat while losing only 28 of their own in the same engagements. That is a 1:23 kill ratio. Not many air forces can beat that reality.kmandpn said:
Are you really sure about that?Swannie said:
As far as i know in the "6-Days-War" and the and even in the "Jom-Kippur-War" most of the Israeli's enemy's aircraft have been destroyed on the ground.
I wouldn't wonder that much if they would have destroyed that many enemy aircraft alltogether, but the numbers seem way too high for air to air combat results.
Or well... even then i would wonder a bit at least. Since the history books all point out rather simultaneously that most egyptian and syrian aircraft have been destroyed on the ground, that would mean that the totall losses must have been more than double as high if your air to air kills number would be accurate and it is hard to believe that Egypt and Syria together did have more than 3000 aircraft to lose in the first place. Even 1250 seems to be awfully high for 2 developing countries, don't you think? Even if streched over 4 to 5 decades. We are not talking about WW2 propellar aircraft here, but the middle east wars took place in the age of expensive jetfighters already.
Nobody, not even the best pilot against the worst pilots can achieve such a ratio without being technologically superior to a large extend anyway. Even the best aces would need a lot of luck and good conditions to shoot down 23 enemy fighter jets. But a whole airforce with every single pilot achieving such a ratio over decades? Sorry, but that is far off every statistical and logical possibility.
Where did you get that numbers from?
Yes I am absolutely sure about that. The 'destroyed on the ground' tally in June 1967 was 400 Egyptian alone. And 650 for all of the Arab countries combined.
<<Nobody, not even the best pilot against the worst pilots can achieve such a ratio without being technologically superior to a large extend anyway.>>>
Yes. Quite right. And so it is with the Israeli pilots.
In any event here is some reference for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Air_Force
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6025161638089519952
<<Nobody, not even the best pilot against the worst pilots can achieve such a ratio without being technologically superior to a large extend anyway.>>>
Yes. Quite right. And so it is with the Israeli pilots.
In any event here is some reference for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Air_Force
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6025161638089519952
Israeli Air Force Record-Extra
And just to add to my comment about Israeli Air Superiority take this into acount:
In June 1982 as part of the "Peace for Galilee Operation" (Israel's invaion of Southern Lebanon the Israeli Air Force was tasked to neutralize the Syrian and other Arab States Air Forces and prevent air strikes on the invading military columns heading for Beirut. After 2 days of aerial combat over the Bekaa valley (June 8th and 9th) the Israeli Air force emerged the victor leaving 85 downed Mig-21 and Mig 23 smoking on the valley floor. The Israeli Air Force losses? Zero. So 85 to 0 is pretty much a good indicator of superiority wouldn't you think? What ratio does that give?
And just to add to my comment about Israeli Air Superiority take this into acount:
In June 1982 as part of the "Peace for Galilee Operation" (Israel's invaion of Southern Lebanon the Israeli Air Force was tasked to neutralize the Syrian and other Arab States Air Forces and prevent air strikes on the invading military columns heading for Beirut. After 2 days of aerial combat over the Bekaa valley (June 8th and 9th) the Israeli Air force emerged the victor leaving 85 downed Mig-21 and Mig 23 smoking on the valley floor. The Israeli Air Force losses? Zero. So 85 to 0 is pretty much a good indicator of superiority wouldn't you think? What ratio does that give?
Thanks for the informations.
But your number of the IDF losing 28 aircraft all together is contradicted by the Wikipedia article too.
It says:
1.) 6-Days-War: 10 IAF aircraft lost (The video speaks of 26.)
2.) Yom Kippur War: quote: "The IAF suffered heavy casualties from Soviet anti-aircraft surface-to-air missiles." That are no dogfight-losses, but still.
quote: "the IAF lost 102 planes"
And on the plus-side we got:
1.) 6-Days-War: quote: "a claimed record of 451" (quote: "the IAF destroyed most of the Egyptian air-force while their planes were still on the ground")
And the video at least makes it look like there really were only a small hand full of egyptian or syrian fighters in the air and all of them in a situation where the airspace over their bases was swarming with IAF fighters, which would leave even the best pilot rather helpless, even if he would be able to get off the ground.
2.) The War Of Attrition: 16 egyptian fighters shot down
3.) Yom Kippur War: quote: "the Egyptian Air Force lost 235 and the Syrian Air Force lost 135"
Not saying how many of that were lost to SAMs.
The video also says that most or even almost all of the arab airforce was destroyed on the ground. So there just hasn't been much to shoot down in the air.
That would be all together 837 and most of them destroyed on the ground against 112 to 128.
The kill ratio thus should be 7.4 to 6.5 from the sources you have linked here.
And at least from that article you really can't say what the actual air to air dogfight kill ratio is because we don't know how many of aircraft on both sides actually were lost in a classical dogfight situation, how many destroyed on the ground, how many lost to SAMs and AA-guns and how many of those dogfight-kills were made against heavily disadvantaged fighters that were barely able to leave the ground while their base was attacked and were, although in the air, still pretty much sitting ducks.
Considering that, the dog fight shoot down ratio can't be that high.
At least the informations you have linked rather confirmed my disbelieve in your claim that 1250 arab jets have been shot down in dogfights.
Even this ratios of 6.5 to 7.4 can't tell us much about the actual quality of the IAF pilots.
They certainly are among the world's best, but nobody is 23 times as good as everybody else - especially not every single pilot of a whole airforce.
But your number of the IDF losing 28 aircraft all together is contradicted by the Wikipedia article too.
It says:
1.) 6-Days-War: 10 IAF aircraft lost (The video speaks of 26.)
2.) Yom Kippur War: quote: "The IAF suffered heavy casualties from Soviet anti-aircraft surface-to-air missiles." That are no dogfight-losses, but still.
quote: "the IAF lost 102 planes"
And on the plus-side we got:
1.) 6-Days-War: quote: "a claimed record of 451" (quote: "the IAF destroyed most of the Egyptian air-force while their planes were still on the ground")
And the video at least makes it look like there really were only a small hand full of egyptian or syrian fighters in the air and all of them in a situation where the airspace over their bases was swarming with IAF fighters, which would leave even the best pilot rather helpless, even if he would be able to get off the ground.
2.) The War Of Attrition: 16 egyptian fighters shot down
3.) Yom Kippur War: quote: "the Egyptian Air Force lost 235 and the Syrian Air Force lost 135"
Not saying how many of that were lost to SAMs.
The video also says that most or even almost all of the arab airforce was destroyed on the ground. So there just hasn't been much to shoot down in the air.
That would be all together 837 and most of them destroyed on the ground against 112 to 128.
The kill ratio thus should be 7.4 to 6.5 from the sources you have linked here.
And at least from that article you really can't say what the actual air to air dogfight kill ratio is because we don't know how many of aircraft on both sides actually were lost in a classical dogfight situation, how many destroyed on the ground, how many lost to SAMs and AA-guns and how many of those dogfight-kills were made against heavily disadvantaged fighters that were barely able to leave the ground while their base was attacked and were, although in the air, still pretty much sitting ducks.
Considering that, the dog fight shoot down ratio can't be that high.
At least the informations you have linked rather confirmed my disbelieve in your claim that 1250 arab jets have been shot down in dogfights.
Even this ratios of 6.5 to 7.4 can't tell us much about the actual quality of the IAF pilots.
They certainly are among the world's best, but nobody is 23 times as good as everybody else - especially not every single pilot of a whole airforce.
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Israeli Air Force Record
Thanks for the reply. In fact as I was compling my data I noted my quoted kill ratio figure of 1:23 contradicted again by other sources which spoke of a figure of 1:30. I felt the former was more accurate and conservative. I suppose a lot of figures are brought to the fore from various sources-including those of the victors and the losers.
All of the info provided seems to come from official sources. But whatever the source the same thing emerges-the Israeli air force is and has been far superior in tactics, skill and results to anything the Arab states have been able to fling at them. And this is probably true for them compared to any air force in the world.
And at the end of the day I think its pretty clear that the 1982 Bekaa Valley results pretty much define the crux of the debate-argument well enough. As I said what ratio does 85-0 actually provide?
Thanks for the reply. In fact as I was compling my data I noted my quoted kill ratio figure of 1:23 contradicted again by other sources which spoke of a figure of 1:30. I felt the former was more accurate and conservative. I suppose a lot of figures are brought to the fore from various sources-including those of the victors and the losers.
All of the info provided seems to come from official sources. But whatever the source the same thing emerges-the Israeli air force is and has been far superior in tactics, skill and results to anything the Arab states have been able to fling at them. And this is probably true for them compared to any air force in the world.
And at the end of the day I think its pretty clear that the 1982 Bekaa Valley results pretty much define the crux of the debate-argument well enough. As I said what ratio does 85-0 actually provide?
How can you know? Is there a chart somewhere where you can see how many flight training hours the pilots of all the airforces of the world get?Viktor said:
I have no clue, but i would be astonished if anybody here would know enough data about this to really be able to judge that.
Actually, the fact that Israel is such a small and densely populated country isn't really an advantage for the education and training of military pilots.
They pretty much would have to fly in relatively small circles all the time.
Or are they sending their pilots to Goosebay Canada for training like european airforces?
And do they perform simulated combat situations with other nation's airforces like it is common in Europe?
I think that the training level of all airforces world wide who can afford the cerosine for the aircrafts, is pretty much the same. If you got the money to have your machines flying, you naturally do that as much as possible and the day has 24 hours and the week has 7 days everywhere just the same.
Some air forces publish figures. There are also estimates, of varying reliability, for those which don't. Some of these figures are collated by, e.g., the IISS. My Military Balance 2003-2004 says Israeli regulars fly 180 hours, reservists 80. I expect any combat hours are additional to that. The upper figure is about the same as most NATO countries.TrangleC said:
Flying hours aren't everything. Egyptian pilots get plenty of flying hours (far more than Syrians, nowadays), & Saudis probably more than Israeli. Doesn't mean they're more effective. Quality of training - how well they use those hours - is also important.
They sometimes train in Turkey, where there's plenty of space, & the Turkish air force as DACT opponents.
everything that glitter is not gold
In 1967 Israelis got much advanced planes then Egyptians and Syrians. They were well supported by USA and good intelligence was provided to them by UK & USA. Friendz dont see how many people killed by Israelis Aircrafts missiles but its potential to deliver. Israeli pilots are reported to miss many targets on ground that would result in killing of civilian.
But their is no proof that they are best. They donot even enter in first ten places. Their are many airforce around who are yet to prove their pilot capabilities.
And friend it also doesnt depend on how many hours they credit but type of training they are given. When Israelis come to fight with UAE or Saudi Arabia Airforces or some other then we could conclude on some point because both Airforces are equiped with state of art technologies. :sniper
Israelis pilots are not the best but the fighter planes they have are many time advanced then their rival like f-16 and f-15. Every fighter pilot knows his real test would be when he enters the dog fight with his enemy.vijayshimla said:
In 1967 Israelis got much advanced planes then Egyptians and Syrians. They were well supported by USA and good intelligence was provided to them by UK & USA. Friendz dont see how many people killed by Israelis Aircrafts missiles but its potential to deliver. Israeli pilots are reported to miss many targets on ground that would result in killing of civilian.
But their is no proof that they are best. They donot even enter in first ten places. Their are many airforce around who are yet to prove their pilot capabilities.
And friend it also doesnt depend on how many hours they credit but type of training they are given. When Israelis come to fight with UAE or Saudi Arabia Airforces or some other then we could conclude on some point because both Airforces are equiped with state of art technologies. :sniper
When the IAF claims a 23:1 ratio, I don't really think they meant that all "23" kills were made in air to air combat. It may include kills made by anti-aircraft systems since they are under the command of the IAF as well IIRC.
Are their pilots the best in the world? Maybe... but pilots are just humans after all, and only 1 component of the IAF. It is the different components, put together that makes the IAF one of the most well-respected air force in the world. Aside from the US, their air force has probably seen the most action in the modern jet age. The experience gained from the pilots then, today's senior commanders would not be lost, but handed down to their rookie pilots as well.
Selection for pilots are stringent, and most students were watched and selected by the IAF based on their academic performances on relevant subjects such as physics and math. And not many make the cut to become fighter pilots in the IAF.
With such systems in place, there is a bound to be a minimal standard of quality that comes out from it.
Are their pilots the best in the world? Maybe... but pilots are just humans after all, and only 1 component of the IAF. It is the different components, put together that makes the IAF one of the most well-respected air force in the world. Aside from the US, their air force has probably seen the most action in the modern jet age. The experience gained from the pilots then, today's senior commanders would not be lost, but handed down to their rookie pilots as well.
Selection for pilots are stringent, and most students were watched and selected by the IAF based on their academic performances on relevant subjects such as physics and math. And not many make the cut to become fighter pilots in the IAF.
With such systems in place, there is a bound to be a minimal standard of quality that comes out from it.