High-Low mix airpower for counter insurgency

i only recelntly discovered this forum, but have had the following idea for quite a while.

Counter Insurgency is more common that pure nation vs nation warfare. A good way to deal with insurgents, usually small bands of infantry is air power. However air power is expensive, especially for a small nation facing a destabilising guerilla war. Thus a cost effective air power would be desirable.

Something that came to me was a hi-low mix. The low mix would be a cessna 170 class aircraft. Maybe a fraction heavier with a bit of armour and carrying a few rockets and machine guns. Importantly it would carry a laser based GPS positioner. Point the laser to the target and get the coordiantes, knowing the vector, angle and position of aircraft using GPS. The exact same method that the americans have shrunk into a pair of binoculars!!

The light aircraft then transmits the coordianates to a heavy aircraft, a bomb truck. The heavy aircraft never has to get low and be exposed to light arms or shoulder launched SAMs. The aircraft that comes to mind is second hand Su 25s, approx 3 million dollars each. Quite good aircraft, good payload, spares available. Equip these aircraft with GPS guided bombs and you have a very powerful, very accurate, very survivable, air power system. Yes the light component can be shot down, on the other hand it only needs to make one pass in order to get the coordinates. Being cheap and simple the light component of the mix is thus 'replacebale'. Bad news for the crew of the low mix it is true.

Anyway that closes my thoughts. The aircraft I have used as examples of the mix are just that, examples. My thinking is based around value for money. Yes sophisticated supersonic fighter bombers are more survivable but they cost a fortune to buy and a fortune to maintain.

feedback appreciated,
regards, n peter evans
 

petrac

New Member
low end remarks

Hi Peter,

interesting remarks, I have been studying vietnam-era counter insurgency vs. modern ideas to this. Currently these ideas are being employed operationally, although often your 'low end' is either a UAV / UCAV for suveillance and/or people on the ground to lase the target.

Remember the B52 bombers dropping Paveway LGBs on targets in western Iraq, guided in by Australian SOFs or tagreting terrorist vehicles in Afghanistan using either on-board hellfires from the UAV or by weapons from an orbiting figher or even B1B bomber...

I have been thinking about your low-end aircraft yourself and I came up with the udea of a refurbished OV10 bronco with uprated engines and fitted with shields and deflectors for engine noise and IR levels. This aircraft would be fitted with an underslung laser designator, linked to GPS and using JTHS (target-handof system) or digital radio's.
Such an aircraft would be flown by experienced crews and able to conduct surveillance, forward air support and targeting. And also be available in numbers with a cheap prce tag, save for the rebuilding. The aircraft could be wired and fitted to carry Hellfire missiles or even 500lb LGBs, as the aircraft was able to carry up to 6 500 lb. unguided bombs in the older versions.

I am curious to your or any reaction!
regards, Petrac
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Why not B-1Bs as the 'hi', and A-10s as the 'lo'?
:eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl:

Oh geez, I crack myself up!

Magoo;)
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
For the USAF, yes.
But what about other airforces?
The A10 is the aircraft I would like supporting me if I was on the ground but I don't know whether the USAF would have any to spare.

A jet trainer such as the Hawk or perhaps the MB339, given the right equipment, also looks a reasonable alternative. Aircraft like these, working in conjunction with a two seat FA18 or similar (to act in the FAC role and co-ordinate the slower, simpler aircraft) would IMO be effective.

The proliferation of effective, portable SAMs has, IMO, made an over reliance on helicopter gunships a dangerous option.

In the future I see unmanned aircraft, working with something like a two seat Super Hornet, as the way to go for close air support.

Cheers
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
I will try and be brief.

The idea above was targeted at small air foreces with limited budgets. My thinking was that a cessna 170 class aircraft to be cheaper than a UAV. Obviously something a bit faster and a bit heavier with a little armour would be better suited.

For the high end something affordable, thus any subsonic aircraft in the inventory. Maybe Hawks, alphajets, whatever is in stock. My thinking was that because the high end does not get close to the target it does not require supersonic speed, does not need to be highly stressed, nor agile. Even a Lear Jet would work, or even a Cessna Caravan, whatever is on offer, whatever is cheap.

Countries in recents times that have batteled guerilla forces armed with MGs and SAMs would include Sri Lanka, Mozambique, Ethipoa vs Eritrea, etc etc. In terms of dollars say a dozen high end = $36 miilion - say 12 second hand Su25s at $3 million each, then say 80 low end at say $0.5 million each = $40 million. Total under $80 million. Add to that running costs, refurbishment, arms, fuel, maintenance, training etc.

My thinking was getting something capable for an affordable price. I have read that the high speeds that jets move at makes it hard for them to define the target accurately and hence often hit civilians.

If money is short even second hand DC3s and ultralights would work. If all the low end has to do is make a pass and get the coordinates.

Now A10s, Broncos, B1s are great but a bit expensive. I have heard that the cessna T37 went quite well in Vietnam. My thinking was that technology can replace high quality well designed airframes by delivering GPS guided bombs from far far away.

regards,
peterAustralia
 

petrac

New Member
Hi Peter,
that was just my idea. of course a cessna 172 could do the job. Just look at what Rhodesia did whit very limited budget (converting cessna O2s in hunters while their Hawker Hunters made the kill). The same was done by South Africa and is still being employed by countries like The Phillipines (2nd hand Bronco's by the way).
There are a good deal of ex-military aircraft available suitable for this job. For the high-end any type of aircraft is good, as long as it is capably of delivering precision ordnance (like LGBs).

I agree on the SAM thing. Ultra-Lights and cessna's are good options but they won't stand a chance against a guerilla force with some heave MGs of even a SA7 or two. In order to make this thing work and have a survivable option for your low-end pilots (who need to be trained after all) you need a 'protected' aircraft.
Rhodesia did that very good. Bent under embargoes they secretly acquired about 8 Cessna O2s and modified them using IR mufflers and additional armour plating. With a couple of modern radio's it was very capable to defend itself and carry out its tasks.
That is why I launched the Bronco idea. The aircraft is highly survivavble given a few modification, is very cost-effective and can be very lethal.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
there are off the shelf airframes availible now like the super tucano and pucara.They are perfect for low level/coin missions,well armed and cheap. No real need to upgrade cessnas etc.
 

Distiller

New Member
Yip, Super Tucano with two Hydra pods.
And a UAV like the Hunter for surveillance.
Hands off PGM equipment, gets real expensive real fast.
 

petrac

New Member
I agree on the last two remarks, although a UAV has dome disadvantages over a manned airframe in my opinion. But that is another discussion ;-)

However, PGM kits can be a solution, as many targets in a counter-insurgency scenario might not be targetable with area weapons like hydra's. Russia manufacures cheap PGM kits of normal bombs, while the older Paveway series are already available in cheaper price segments.

Many countries are employing the described equipment (hydra-equipped light aircraft), like The Phillipines nowadays and countries like Oman in the seventies (with the Strikemaster).
Using a cheaper PGM-based Hi-low mix based on a PGM shooter and a manned or unmanned surveillance system is a development of this trusted and tried concept
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I agree on the last two remarks, although a UAV has dome disadvantages over a manned airframe in my opinion. But that is another discussion ;-)

However, PGM kits can be a solution, as many targets in a counter-insurgency scenario might not be targetable with area weapons like hydra's. Russia manufacures cheap PGM kits of normal bombs, while the older Paveway series are already available in cheaper price segments.

Many countries are employing the described equipment (hydra-equipped light aircraft), like The Phillipines nowadays and countries like Oman in the seventies (with the Strikemaster).
Using a cheaper PGM-based Hi-low mix based on a PGM shooter and a manned or unmanned surveillance system is a development of this trusted and tried concept
Its not only smaller countries using piston aircraft. the US is using them as well, and has lost a few to direct fire.

One of their COIN aircraft came back recently with 332 hits from small arms fire.

At the moment doctrine is that these aircraft act in pairs - one acts as CAP while the other does the biz.

An instructive lesson in the suitability of smaller piston aircraft can be found in the efforts of Count Carl Gustav Von Rosen. A further lesson is with the Thais. They had F5's imposed upon them when what they wanted and needed (and eventually got) was OV-10 Broncos.

re loadouts - if you look at what the AT6 RLA is railed for - then they certainly have bite.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
An instructive lesson in the suitability of smaller piston aircraft can be found in the efforts of Count Carl Gustav Von Rosen. A further lesson is with the Thais. They had F5's imposed upon them when what they wanted and needed (and eventually got) was OV-10 Broncos.

I am starting to think that petrac's idea of a refurbished OV10 Bronco is a good one.

Are Broncos available on the second hand market and if so what sort of cost would be involved. Also, would there be a market for the OV10 line to be re-opened specifically to produce an aircraft for counter insurgency type operations? If so would this be feasible?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I am starting to think that petrac's idea of a refurbished OV10 Bronco is a good one.

Are Broncos available on the second hand market and if so what sort of cost would be involved. Also, would there be a market for the OV10 line to be re-opened specifically to produce an aircraft for counter insurgency type operations? If so would this be feasible?
There's merit in looking at the OV-10 Bronco if you can't afford new aircraft - but the new aircraft are getting cheaper.

the 3 main contenders currently available are the
  • Super Tucano
  • AT-6 (looks like a 2 seater mustang)
  • Ayres T-65 Vigilante
The T-65 is in heavy use (and is the aircraft type that got shot up recently). They have a titanium tub, are a converted crop duster (and thus used for anti-drug crop work), are twin seaters, fitted with GPS nav, guns, rockets are some classified unmentionables. They've been operating out of Patrick AFB, Melb in Florida since 1988.

they also act in concert with a specially fitted Cessna Caravan fitted out with multi-spectral digital imaging systems.

So, what you have in effect, is a 3 ship flight:
  • FAC
  • CAP
  • Duster
apparently its a potent combo. ;)
 

petrac

New Member
Thanks tasman,

I know there are dozens of ex USMC and USAF Bronco's baking in the desert, which are for sale. I would not know a price, sorry. I know however that several companies would be willing to invest in upgrade packages.

After all, just installing new avionics, radio's and the latest IR defence systems, together with a GPS laser designator, is all off-the-shelf technology...
Adding uprated engines and low-noise props would be even easier. I do not think a production line would be re-opened, as many think these aircraft are obsolete, something I disagree with ;)
I think upgrading types like Bronco's and Pucara's is the most feasible way for now. It would be interesting to see a new design however...
 

Wooki

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There's merit in looking at the OV-10 Bronco if you can't afford new aircraft - but the new aircraft are getting cheaper.

the 3 main contenders currently available are the
  • Super Tucano
  • AT-6 (looks like a 2 seater mustang)
  • Ayres T-65 Vigilante
The T-65 is in heavy use (and is the aircraft type that got shot up recently). They have a titanium tub, are a converted crop duster (and thus used for anti-drug crop work), are twin seaters, fitted with GPS nav, guns, rockets are some classified unmentionables. They've been operating out of Patrick AFB, Melb in Florida since 1988.

they also act in concert with a specially fitted Cessna Caravan fitted out with multi-spectral digital imaging systems.

So, what you have in effect, is a 3 ship flight:
  • FAC
  • CAP
  • Duster
apparently its a potent combo. ;)
The OV-10 was a good concept, but leave it at that.. It had a wicked swing on takeoff and landing if one of the engines failed.

Otherwise I would re-instate it yesterday,

cheers


w
 
Last edited:

Wooki

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Why not B-1Bs as the 'hi', and A-10s as the 'lo'?
:eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl:

Oh geez, I crack myself up!

Magoo;)
Boo! Boo! Hiss, Hiss... A10 forever!
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
How about something like the Pilatus PC-21? It's a prop trainer that is designed to allow advanced weapons training in place of using a fast jet.

I agree though, aircraft should operate in pairs for COIN ops, allowing more spotters in the air and rapid strikes when something is sighted.

-Cheers
 

vivtho

New Member
How about a light turboprop trainer like the PC-21/EMB-312 unarmed but equipped with a laser designation+IR pod. Contrary to what you might expect, this is the 'hi' component of the team. The low component would be a turboprop transport at a higher altitude with 8-12 500kg LGBs under the wings, plinking away at targets marked by the PC-21/EMB-312.
 

chrisrobsoar

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A pod such as the Litening III may be suitable.

“LITENING is a targeting pod integrated and mounted externally to the aircraft. The targeting pod contains a high-resolution, forward-looking infrared sensor (FLIR) that displays an infrared image of the target to the aircrew; it has a wide field of view search capability and a narrow field of view acquisition/targeting capability of battlefield-sized targets. The pod also contains a charged coupled device (CCD-TV) camera used to obtain target imagery in the visible portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. An on-gimbal inertial navigation sensor has established line-of-sight and automatic boresighting capability.

The pod is equipped with a laser designator for precise delivery of laser-guided munitions, a laser rangefinder provides information for various avionics systems, for example, navigation updates, weapon deliveries and target updates. The targeting pod includes an automatic target tracker to provide fully automatic stabilized target tracking at altitudes, airspeeds and slant ranges consistent with tactical weapon delivery maneuvers. These features simplify the functions of target detection and recognition, and permit attack of targets with precision-guided weapons on a single pass.


Length: 87 in (2.20 m)
Diameter: 16 in (0.406 m)
Weight: 440 lb (200 kg)

Cost $1.5M

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LITENING_targeting_pod


Using this pod targets can be positively identified and the exact position of the target recorded, making it possible to hand-off the target to another platform.

This can be done in real time using such systems as ROVER. The there are many advantages to such systems, but the main one is that the people who call for the strike can confirm that the correct target has been identified before the weapon is released.


“ROVER, which stands for Remotely Operated Video Enhanced Receiver, is a system which allows ground forces, such as Forward Air Controllers (FAC), to see what an aircraft or unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) is seeing in real time by receiving images acquired by the aircraft's sensors on a laptop on the ground. There's no time delay and usage of ROVER greatly improves the FAC on the ground reconnaissance and target identification which are essential to close air support.

ROVER IV seeks to use GPS and other systems to allow the controller to click a target they would like the aircraft to engage or the UAV operator to focus on. ROVER is compatible with UAVs and aircraft carrying the LITENING targeting pod as well as other targeting systems.”


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROVER


Some data on the PC-21.

http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/media/Pilatus-PC-21.pdf

http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/media/Pilatus-PC-21-Fact-Sheet.pdf


At 200kg the pod is rather heavy and I would expect that ideally it should be mounted on a centre station. However the undercarriage on this aircraft folds inwards and the gap between the semi-recessed wheels is only 0.6m/2ft. This is rather tight but I think its OK. The ground clearance is 0.82m/2.7ft, which would be reduced as the oleo legs compress, but this still should provide adequate clearance.

Obviously we are assuming that an armed version of the aircraft will be produced, with hard points etc. This should not be a problem as there are likely to customers for large numbers of armed versions of this aircraft.

In addition to the pod the aircraft would probably need external fuel tanks and be able to carry some light weapons.

Which brings me to the other turbo-prop transport aircraft. Mounting the weapons under the wings could be problematic as hard points will also be required. Extensive modifications would be required to install the hard points and the associated wiring. This would be a difficult task and would best be carried out during the original built rather than as a retrofit. Transport aircraft are designed to carry the load internally, rather than on the wings. So perhaps the weapons could be dropped from the rear ramp of a suitable aircraft, such as the C-27J Spartan.

Over the years many similar aircraft have been used to deliver loads by parachute. One technique is to put the load on a pallet attached to one (or more) large parachutes, the package sits on rollers and is extracted from the aircraft by a small drogue chute. A similar technique would work with bombs. Once clear from the aircraft the drogue chute would be released and the bomb would be guided to the designated target. This technique would not work with dumb bombs as the release would be too inaccurate, but it certainly would be good enough for smart bombs.

The USAF has used this technique for dropping very large bombs that could not be carried by fighters.

Another factor to consider is the cost of using smart weapons, they are very expensive, but few are required to take out a target. Also the value of the target has to be taken into account, there is little point in dropping a $1m weapon on $1,000 truck.


“Viper Strike is a gliding munition capable of stand-off precision attack using GPS-aided navigation and a semi-active laser seeker. It is intended for operations that require a flexible angle of inclination (steep or shallow), particularly in mountainous terrain or built-up areas where strict rules of engagement are in force. Its small size and precision provide for low collateral damage in cluttered urban environments.”

The weapon will be used on MQ-1 armed Predator and AC-130 gunships.”

http://www.defense-update.com/directory/viper-strike.htm


Length: 0.9 m
Weight: 20 kg
Diameter: 14 cm
Wingspan: 0.9 m
Warhead: 1.8 kg (HEAT)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viper_Strike

Viper-Strike is a very small weapon. The installation on the AC-130U allows the weapon to be deployed in a canister through the floor of the aircraft in a similar manner to deploying sonar buoys on maritime aircraft. In this case the arrangement acts as an airlock and allows the aircraft to be pressurised, so that it can remain at high altitudes. This tactic allows the enemy to be engaged at considerable standoff ranges, offering good protection to the delivering aircraft and also providing considerable cross-track coverage.

Work is underway to reduce the weight and cost of the weapon. Other enhancements are being developed including modifications to the warhead and different warheads to enable the weapon to be used against a wide range of targets.

This weapon would also be suitable for use with the armed PC-21.


As mentioned elsewhere in this thread in COIN operations working in pairs has lots of advantages. Perhaps in this case two pairs might be better. In jungle or mountainous regions where it maybe difficult to spot targets from medium altitude, one pair could go down and identify targets, whilst the other pair operated at medium altitude and designated the targets handed off by the low pair. Singletons could be used but flying with a wingman is always better.

In this scenario (really a three layered approach), the weapons would be deployed from a turboprop transport aircraft operating at height (well high for a turboprop). It could carry a wide range of smart glide weapons (i.e. bombs of different sizes). Some versions of the C-130 even have under wing hard points and could carry large missiles or other equipment. These aircraft would have relatively long endurance and range when compared with the PC-21 aircraft. The transport aircraft could loiter in the area and service waves of PC-21s. With a mixed squadron of 4 transport aircraft (C-130 or C-27J) and 16 PC-21s a large area could be engaged on an almost continuous basis.

These transport aircraft would have an airlift capacity greater than required, smaller aircraft could be used, however this arrangement would allow the whole team to quickly be redeployed to another area. Flying high above the scene the aircraft could act as a relay and link the troops on the ground and local airborne forces back to base, allowing commanders to adjust forces as required.

COIN operations are often required in remote regions where airfields are few and far between, and those that are available are rough and ready. The C-130 and the C-27J can operate in such conditions; but I doubt if the current PC-21 could operate off such strips. So let us hope that the military version also addresses this issue.

Implicit in this mix are ground troops and helicopters. It might be possible to equip the transport aircraft (particularly the C-130), so that the helicopters, the troops and the ground crew could all deployed to a new base at the same time. Leapfrogging from forward base to forward base (clearing the new base from the old) would allow limited forces to control huge areas. After reoccupying a base regular logistic support channels could be used to re-supply the new base.

Before departing an old base, using modern equipment it should be easy to leave a few things around that would discourage intruders. With the protection of quick reaction support a few troops could remain on each forward base to “feed the dog”.

The ability to quickly deploy to an area with a full range of capability is compelling.

For countries with long borders and small budgets, with rough forward bases, using mobile self-contained agile forces, may be a cost effective way of making the opposition kept their heads down.




Chris
 

vivtho

New Member
At 200kg the pod is rather heavy and I would expect that ideally it should be mounted on a centre station. However the undercarriage on this aircraft folds inwards and the gap between the semi-recessed wheels is only 0.6m/2ft. This is rather tight but I think its OK. The ground clearance is 0.82m/2.7ft, which would be reduced as the oleo legs compress, but this still should provide adequate clearance.
Actually 200 kg is a reasonable load that can be handled by many light aircraft. IMO the best platform for such a pod would be the Grob G520 Egrett, but it might be slightly pricey. However, it has excellent altitude and loiter capabilities.

Also, while transport aircraft can (and have) drop bombs from their rear doors, this can only be performed with dumb and GPS-guided munitions. But unguided munitions are not accurate enough for the task, and GPS guided weapons are too expensive (I'm assuming that the nation looking for this hi-low combination is either poor, or denied advanced weaponry). Laser guided weapons provide good accuracy, low price and can limit collateral damage. However, a laser guided bomb cannot be dropped from the rear ramp since it needs a lock before it is dropped, which is why I mentioned external hardpoints. Installing hardpoints is not a terribly difficult job, especially if the launch aircraft is not going to do any laser designation.
 
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