Concept Study: a European Corvette Recipe

[alexsa]

Actaully to give a relative indication of costs if you are willng to buy seond hand (even in the current market which is only now on the way down from a high) you can get a 1989 built (keel lay) 18 to 19kt 15000 to 25000 DWT RO-RO, LO-LO (just completed dry dock) for 15.5million USD ONO.

http://www.frankshipbrokers.com/Roro.html

On the other hand a 1995 built 77m wave piecer (34knots) with it capcity limted to 151 cars (about 300 DWT) will still set you back 11.6m. Note the mainteancen on this will be much higher than the conventional vesel and these things are very limited in sea state.

http://www.frankshipbrokers.com/PassengerandFerries.html

 

[Todjaeger]

A race car fitted out might be consdered a threat at winning a race...

So by your logic you'd rather have something with such low performance you cannot win or even be considered a threat?

Why even try if you have already accepted defeat?

Having a ship that threatens hostile ships is exactly what a warship is designed for.

The Multi role corvette design is great, as most of the ships cost is in the weapons systems then it will not cost drastically more being an exotic design. Probably the best modular upgrade to a ship like this would be a armed helicopter. A helicopter can deploy to the ship quickly, increasing the firepower of the ship 10 fold. So if you focus on this helicopter centric design for increasing capabiliy then the MRC wins as it has more room for helicopters for its size. To get the same level of deck space on a single hullship you'll be looking at double the displaement and the bigger engines and fuel consummption that goes with it.

The only downside is its sea keepingg. Thats important for the open oceans around Australia but not so much around Europe. Apparently the MRC is quite stable for its size when in rough seas.

Umm... What?:unknown

What I suggested was a corvettte with modular systems, allowing it to be armed on an as-needed basis with such weapons as a 76mm cannon (a la the Danish Flyvefisken-class patrol boat). The hypothetical design I have in mind would have permanently mounted the requisite sensors and electronics/fire control systems to make use of such weaponry, as well as others like Harpoon AShM, or ESSM SAM... Such weaponry IMO is a respectable level of firepower, particularly for such a small ship (in the ~1,400 ton range...) being potentially similar to a number of different frigates.

Essentially, a corvette is a smaller frigate. Due to being a smaller ship, there are typically a few more operating restrictions, such as shorter range due to limited bunkerage and stores. Also, the armament is sometimes a little lighter (i.e. a 57mm of 76mm cannon vs. a 5"/127mm cannon...) and it often is not able to operate in weather is quite as rough, as the design is just smaller.

Properly equipped, an embarked helicopter can certainly help a vessel equipped as indicated above, however IMO it would not bring a "10-fold increase in the ships firepower... Nevermind that a helicopter is not always available as it will be dow for rest & maintenance and only available for ops roughly a 3rd of the time, weather permitting.

Similarly,

anti ship modules could simply be hellfire missiles again using laser guidance requires little integration with the ships radar.

Such a capability is not all that great for a ship of the indicated size and cost that the Austal MRC would be. If the Austal MRC were to have a hypothetical encounter with something like the German Type 143A Gepard (a class of ship it would be to replace...) the Gepard would be able to engage with Exocet AShM long before the Austal's Hellfires could be brought to bear. It is also quite possible that the Gepard's 76mm cannon could engage before the Hellfires could as well, since a 76mm has IIRC a range of ~12km. I have heard various ranges for Hellfire bandied about between ~4-16 km, but there is a great deal of variation between different versions of Hellfire missile, and also the altitude at which the Hellfire is fired. Given that it would be getting fired from a ship, the altitude would be low, therefore the range would be less than if fired from a helicopter at 5,000 ft.

-Cheers

 

[Vajt]

How about the MEKO CSL or MEKO Fusion designs? They are highly modular and should fulfill most of what you propose.

http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2008/07/littoral-dominance-requires-broader.html

-----JT-----

 

[tatra]

Would the new dutch patrol vessel fit this bracket?
http://www.scheldenavalshipbuilding.nl/nl/news.htm?item=4

"The new vessels will measure 108 metres in length and will displace approximately 3750 tons. They offer hangar space and landing facilities for one NH-90 helicopter or equivalent types. Their armament will consist of one 76 mm Oto-Melara gun, one rapid-fire gun and two Hitrole machine guns. The weapons will all have full remote control. Thanks to the state-of-the-art integrated sensor and communication technology in the mast, detection and tracking of high- and low-altitude air targets, fast boats, periscopes, mines and even swimmers will be possible."

Offensive capability from the use of missiles and torpedoes on NH-90.

 

[crobato]

What about the SIGMA class? Any opinion on that?

 

[Jezza]

Would the new dutch patrol vessel fit this bracket?
http://www.scheldenavalshipbuilding.nl/nl/news.htm?item=4

"The new vessels will measure 108 metres in length and will displace approximately 3750 tons. They offer hangar space and landing facilities for one NH-90 helicopter or equivalent types. Their armament will consist of one 76 mm Oto-Melara gun, one rapid-fire gun and two Hitrole machine guns. The weapons will all have full remote control. Thanks to the state-of-the-art integrated sensor and communication technology in the mast, detection and tracking of high- and low-altitude air targets, fast boats, periscopes, mines and even swimmers will be possible."

Offensive capability from the use of missiles and torpedoes on NH-90.

I reckon it does.
Great armament and helo sweet.............

 

[harryriedl]

Would the new dutch patrol vessel fit this bracket?
http://www.scheldenavalshipbuilding.nl/nl/news.htm?item=4

"The new vessels will measure 108 metres in length and will displace approximately 3750 tons. They offer hangar space and landing facilities for one NH-90 helicopter or equivalent types. Their armament will consist of one 76 mm Oto-Melara gun, one rapid-fire gun and two Hitrole machine guns. The weapons will all have full remote control. Thanks to the state-of-the-art integrated sensor and communication technology in the mast, detection and tracking of high- and low-altitude air targets, fast boats, periscopes, mines and even swimmers will be possible."

Offensive capability from the use of missiles and torpedoes on NH-90.

would you be able to bolt on a RAM or a SeaRAM on it as having the option to add a missile armament is would be useful

 

[tatra]

I suppose adding RAM into the vessel would not be too difficult. There would be room for it behind the integrated mast, just between the funnels. Don't know how an installation there would affect the things that the integrated mast does.

Video on integrated mast (on this patrol vessel):
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sMgEsHC1Lc"]YouTube - Thales integrated sensor mast[/ame]

Article on sensors contained in integrated mast (on this patrol vessel)
http://www.thalesgroup.com/netherla...s+Navy+selects+Thales's+Integrated+Mast&dis=1

Article on integrated mast (on this patrol vessel): http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blog...79a7Post:ae8245dd-2c90-4630-9a63-743f04d6c242

Article on patrol vessels' stern launch and recovery slipway for interceptor boats:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blog...79a7Post:e771f395-cb02-4cfd-aec4-df54117b91c7

About the Patrol Vessel
The Patrol Vessel as designed for the Royal Netherlands Navy measures 108 meter in length and 16 meter in breadth. Total displacement is 3750 tonnes.

The vessel accommodates 50 crew and up to 40 non-listed persons, such as helicopter crew and medical teams. Further some 100 evacuees can be boarded. The ship's speed is approx 22 knots. To optimize the seakeeping behaviour of the vessel the hull has been stretched, and the bridge and superstructure are located relatively aftwards.
The propulsion plant consists of 2 main diesel engines of approx 5400 kW each. Alternatively electric propulsion can be chosen for low speed operations.
To support interception operations, 2 large RHIB's and one NH-90 helicopter are boarded. The stern RHIB will be launched and recovered via a slipway in the stern.
The weapon suit consists of one 76 mm gun, one 27 mm automatic gun and two automatic medium calibre gun systems.
In order to reduce the vulnerability, the vessel will be outfitted with ballistic features, blast resistant constructions, redundant and decentralized systems, a gas citadel, extensive fire fighting systems and additional measures to reduce the effects of flooding.

Automation level for this vessel is high, and includes a shore support system, a shore management system, a calamity system, a warning system, an overview system and extensive subsystem automation.
Also the communication and networks are state of the art, so as to support and direct all authorities involved.
The Patrol Vessels will be the first vessels of the Royal Netherlands Navy equipped with the Thales Integrated Sensor & Communication Systems (ISCS), an integrated mast module which integrates practically all RF systems, radars as well as communication and optical sensors on board of the ship in one housing
Together with this Integrated Sensor & Communication Systems (ISCS) these four advanced Patrol Vessels can face the threats and missions of today and tomorrow.
Source: formerly the Royal Schelde Group

The projected number of ships for the class is four. Commisionings will take place during 2009-2012:

• P840: HNLMS Holland
• P841: HNLMS Zeeland
• P842: HNLMS Friesland
• P843: HNMLS Groningen

On December 20, 2007 the contract was signed for 4 ships at a cost of around € 600 million.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Dutch_Navy_OPV's

Keel for First Patrol Ship Laid Down
(Source: Dutch Ministry of Defence; issued Dec. 8, 2008)
(Issued in Dutch only: unofficial translation by defense-aerospace.com)
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cg...AAJYJ1YAAAA4&cat=3&prod=100447&modele=release#

 

[Vajt]

would you be able to bolt on a RAM or a SeaRAM on it as having the option to add a missile armament is would be useful

How about upgrading the 76mm to fire the DART guided round to defeat missiles?

I believe it has a range of close to 10km which is similar to that of the RAM. It may not offer the firepower of the RAM but it would be a lot more cost effective seeing how the 76mm gun is already there. Plus I would imagine a guided 76mm round probably costs a bit less than a RAM missile.

Oto-Melara has provided a very comprehensive package with their stealthy 76mm gun. With the new Super Rapid gun (120 rpm) and newest ammo (from multi-use, to long range-30km, and guided rounds) it offers a fairly complete platform.

http://www.otomelara.it/EN/Common/files/OtoMelara/pdf/business/naval/mediumCalibers/76-62SR.pdf

http://www.otomelara.it/OtoMelara/EN/Business/Sea/Under_Development/index.sdo

-----JT-----

 

[kato]

Alright, let's go over the suggestions...

First off, the Holland class and the Damen corvettes - seriously, we're not looking for a 100m+ open-ocean patroller. Besides, both would have prices that would yield us perhaps 25-30 hulls at most on our budget. The same issue is also there with Meko CSL and Meko Fusion. We're effectively talking a ship in the 60-80 m OAL range.

Remember, as laid out originally, this is looking to replace minehunters and very lightly armed patrol ships primarily.

Such a ship won't have a fixed helo assigned to it - way too much cost. It'd be nice if it can support one, and for certain missions it'd sortie with one, but it's not a fixed asset. It won't have ASuW missiles, that's not its mission - there could be a modded version carrying some, but for most of the class, this is a non-issue. It will likely have a hull-mounted sonar, especially for minehunting.

What it'll need for it's stated mission is a certain amount of space - internal and external - to mount its mission-specific equipment. It could therefore be useful designing it with a multifunctional hangar - used for a helo, for MCM drones, for loose cargo or for accomodation depending on specific mission, for example. Same thing with a flight deck, always a useful thing to have - even if you just use it to park two 20' containers on it. It's unlikely the ship would be used to ferry around vehicles, cargo or personnel other than mission-related, so we won't need a RoRo deck or anything like that.
Speed and propulsion in general is a non-issue - within its context, it won't need to move at 20+ knots. It doesn't have to intercept anything, or move across the ocean at high speeds - just reliably cruise on. Say 16-17 knots should be enough for its operational needs, 14-15 would still be alright. It would be nice to have at least 3, preferably 4 weeks unsupported endurance, and to have a range in excess of 6,000 nm at a low cruise speed of 12 knots.

Regarding armament, we're primarily talking self-defense, with the possibility to expand this at wartime. The latter could be achieved in a modular approach - like Stanflex - but could also be enabled with builtin ffbnw growth space for say torpedo tubes, or missile launchers. Bolt it on, set sail in a few days again. Keep a number of hulls with certain armament installed at peacetime, if the specific customer wants it. Such things could partially also be relegated to helicopter mission packages. In its peacetime duties the ship won't need any of that, all the navies involved have other ships for such duties - and for the most part won't fund such expenses.
Obviously the above affects the choice of armament. Think about it - you want it ffbnw ESSM? You need the necessary sensors and illuminators. You want it to carry a ASuW/LA SSM with an active seeker and perhaps GPS, like RBS-15 or NSM? No problem, no sensors needed. And so on.

 

[rjmaz1]

Well if those are the actual requirements then that rules out a trimaran hull as there is no need for a 40 knot top speed. It also rules out gas turbines in a CODAG setup as there is also no need for a 30 knot top speed.

So that leaves a monohull design with a pair of diesels and two props. One diesel running both props for long distance cruise and two diesels running both props for fast cruise. If the target weight is between 1000-2000 tonns then there is a popular ship thats already in service with many navies.

The MEKO A-100 patrol corvette. It has various levels of weapons fit outs from a crew of 30 as a basic patrol shnip to a crew of up to 100 when equipped with a helicopter, land and sea missile systems. It also comes equipped with a 76 or 62mm cannon and comes fitted for but now with exocet anti-ship missiles. At 1,650 tonn it has excellent seakeeping and an excellent 6000 mile range when cruising on the single diesel engine. Most importantly it can support a helicopter and has a hanger. Price is all over the shop as the weapons set the cost. Anywhere from 100 million to 300 US dollar per ship. The hull is such excellent value for money that it will be cheaper with any given weapon package.

 

[B.Smitty]

Well if those are the actual requirements then that rules out a trimaran hull as there is no need for a 40 knot top speed. It also rules out gas turbines in a CODAG setup as there is also no need for a 30 knot top speed.

So that leaves a monohull design with a pair of diesels and two props. One diesel running both props for long distance cruise and two diesels running both props for fast cruise. If the target weight is between 1000-2000 tonns then there is a popular ship thats already in service with many navies.

The MEKO A-100 patrol corvette. It has various levels of weapons fit outs from a crew of 30 as a basic patrol shnip to a crew of up to 100 when equipped with a helicopter, land and sea missile systems. It also comes equipped with a 76 or 62mm cannon and comes fitted for but now with exocet anti-ship missiles. At 1,650 tonn it has excellent seakeeping and an excellent 6000 mile range when cruising on the single diesel engine. Most importantly it can support a helicopter and has a hanger. Price is all over the shop as the weapons set the cost. Anywhere from 100 million to 300 US dollar per ship. The hull is such excellent value for money that it will be cheaper with any given weapon package.

There are a few OPV hulls in that size range on which this could be based. The Meko A-100 is certainly a candidate, as is a stretched VT River class, and the Akers-designed NZ Protector OPV.

The River and Protector OPVs both offer very low prices (on the order of $60-80 million (USD)). They would need minor enhancement to allow carriage of MIW gear or modules.

Modular armament sounds nice, but whether you want to incur the cost of making it drop-in replaceable is an open question to me. Maybe you just send them back to the yard for a refit, if needed.

These aren't warships, so a 76mm or 57mm may be overkill. A 25mm-40mm is plenty to shoot up pirate ships or other small craft.

I also wouldn't bother with SSMs or SAMs - just too expensive. Maybe just have the option to partner with Lockheed to install a few Netfires containers on deck somewhere, if needed.

An open question is, will an OPV-like top speed of 20-23kts be sufficiently flexible for the range of patrol duties envisioned? I don't know. My gut says, "don't increase the speed, and use the savings to buy more ships."

 

[kato]

An open question is, will an OPV-like top speed of 20-23kts be sufficiently flexible for the range of patrol duties envisioned?

The ships being replaced, as laid out by me:

- Einheitshülle Minenabwehr: 14-15 knots
- Tripartite: 14 knots
- River: 17 knots
- Lerici: 14 knots
(- Minerva: 25 knots)
(- Gepard: 42 knots)

Currently, roughly: 20 hulls faster than 17 knots; 70 hulls up to 17 knots.
If at all, presumably a portion of the vessels could be acquired in a "Block 1B" with different, faster propulsion.

 

[B.Smitty]

kato,

You list ASuW as a primary role of this vessel. Do you mean small-boat ASuW? Or duking it out with warships?

For the most part, the ships being replaced do not have the later capability.

 

[rjmaz1]

There are a few OPV hulls in that size range on which this could be based. The Meko A-100 is certainly a candidate, as is a stretched VT River class, and the Akers-designed NZ Protector OPV.

The River and Protector OPVs both offer very low prices (on the order of $60-80 million (USD)). They would need minor enhancement to allow carriage of MIW gear or modules.

For 50% more cost you get a slightly faster ship with more range and room for 30 extra crew. The biggest advantage is MEKO 100 comes fitted for but not with many weapon systems and comes standard with a bigger gun. Ideally there would have to produce exact requirements for the ship, not some forum user making them up.

The ships being replaced, as laid out by me:

- Einheitshülle Minenabwehr: 14-15 knots
- Tripartite: 14 knots
- River: 17 knots
- Lerici: 14 knots
(- Minerva: 25 knots)
(- Gepard: 42 knots)

Currently, roughly: 20 hulls faster than 17 knots; 70 hulls up to 17 knots.
If at all, presumably a portion of the vessels could be acquired in a "Block 1B" with different, faster propulsion.

The MEKO being the faster of the OPV ships gives it comparible speed to the Minerva. So only the Gepard is significantly faster. I believe the best option here would be to have a helicopter permanently attached to the ships in that role. The life cycle cost of having two propulsion types would probably be greater than the cost to purchase and operate a few light helicopters.

 

[B.Smitty]

For 50% more cost you get a slightly faster ship with more range and room for 30 extra crew. The biggest advantage is MEKO 100 comes fitted for but not with many weapon systems and comes standard with a bigger gun. Ideally there would have to produce exact requirements for the ship, not some forum user making them up.

"For 50% more"...

5 billion Euro will get you,

- 83 x Protector OPVs (@ 60 million Euro)
- 55 x Meko 100s (@ 90 million Euro)

So does numbers or ship capability matter more?

Yes, the softness of the requirements makes it impossible to make a firm decision. The best we can do is come up with a range of options.

 

[kato]

You list ASuW as a primary role of this vessel. Do you mean small-boat ASuW? Or duking it out with warships?

Within reason. It'd probably be feasible to use it as a carrier for a relatively sensor-independent long-range strike missile (that only needs the rough GPS coordinates of a target, with an active terminal seeker), but unless this is an option for each relevant navy it'd probably be ASuW operations within onboard or helo sensor range (let's say 15 miles or so) against small boats up to the size of common coastal patrol boats. What i mean is: we're definitely not talking duking it out with the surface warfare assets of the Russian fleet.

 

[B.Smitty]

Within reason. It'd probably be feasible to use it as a carrier for a relatively sensor-independent long-range strike missile (that only needs the rough GPS coordinates of a target, with an active terminal seeker), but unless this is an option for each relevant navy it'd probably be ASuW operations within onboard or helo sensor range (let's say 15 miles or so) against small boats up to the size of common coastal patrol boats. What i mean is: we're definitely not talking duking it out with the surface warfare assets of the Russian fleet.

I, for one, would be leery of using an OPV like the Protector in a long-ranged missile duel with anybody. It really can't defend itself against this sort of attack. I would at least want RAM, if not ESSM, along with decent radar and ECM suites. This stuff consumes space and weight and costs a lot.

Maybe the right answer is a hi-lo mix of platforms. Buy a smaller number of high-end corvettes or small frigates, and a larger number of simpler OPVs.

 

[harryriedl]

I, for one, would be leery of using an OPV like the Protector in a long-ranged missile duel with anybody. It really can't defend itself against this sort of attack. I would at least want RAM, if not ESSM, along with decent radar and ECM suites. This stuff consumes space and weight and costs a lot.

Maybe the right answer is a hi-lo mix of platforms. Buy a smaller number of high-end corvettes or small frigates, and a larger number of simpler OPVs.

would they both be compatibility with modular equipment (in particular min hunting gear). Or would the basic OPV have the capability for mine hunting as you don't need SAM's or big guns for mine hunting.

Would a Mix of say for example a mix of FM400 and extending Rivers being the high low mix of a Euro corvette. with perhaps a using a Stanflex system for a common architecture and a mix of engine options

 

[rjmaz1]

I, for one, would be leery of using an OPV like the Protector in a long-ranged missile duel with anybody. It really can't defend itself against this sort of attack. I would at least want RAM, if not ESSM, along with decent radar and ECM suites. This stuff consumes space and weight and costs a lot.

Maybe the right answer is a hi-lo mix of platforms. Buy a smaller number of high-end corvettes or small frigates, and a larger number of simpler OPVs.

The OPV designs would require a fairly decent redesign to fit the weapon systems you suggest.

The MEKO 100 however has the option of having all of them fitted to make a powerful warship. You could order just a fleet of MEKO 100 and have a handful fully optioned out at double the price to allow it to handle enemy frigates and destroyers.

Th MEKO 100 no doubt comes at a premium price, but its available upgrades and extra space makes it attractive. It all comes down to how many ships you need.if numbers are most important then the OPV style ships are a better option.

Having a high low mix may not be a good option. As there is already high end warship so two levels of patrol ships would then make low-medium-high classses. I'd instead go with a medium capability ship and put any extra money into an extra destroyer or whatever ship the Navies in question already operate.