Can you supply any evidence for this, & some indication of when it was discussed? What about the UAE? I believe their consent would be needed for an sales of F-16E, since they financed its development (& would get a royalty on any sales).
Royal Saudi Air Force
- Thread starter SNIPER-15
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Apparently this dates back to 1997. Here are a few links:
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0497/9704021.htm
http://www.fas.org/MHonArc/AT-doc_archive/msg00009.html
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/comsite5/bin/pdinventory.pl?pdlanding=1&referid=2930&purchase_type=ITM&item_id=0286-5537995
The US said no or just didn't respond to the Saudis request to buy F-16 so they just ended up buying 72 Eurofighters (quite like what happened when Egypt requested 12 F-15's). I would've gave them the F-16's if I knew that if I said no they'd go out and buy something even better and it's not like they know how to use half of the crap that they buy.
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So, in 1996 Saudi Arabia talked to LM about buying F-16 (note that the F-16E didn't exist then), & asked for pricing information. In January 1997 this was officially made public. That would have been block 50/52, as the F-16 block 60 didn't exist then. Metro suggested that Saudi Arabia is going to buy F-16 in the future, which is clearly wrong. The idea seems to have been dropped long ago.
I'm not sure but the Saudis seem to have requested it again just before the Eurofighter deal. And the Block 60 was being discussed in 1997 (or maybe even before not sure) because the deal was only signed in 1998. It seems like the Saudis won't be getting alot of stuff from the US for a while and they won't get the F-16 definitely because the Eurofighter buy was because they didn't get it. And as for the UAE not agreeing lets not forget that these two gulf states are very close friends and would probably informed the Saudis about the deal.
Who said anything about the UAE not agreeing? I said their agreement would be needed, not that they didn't agree.
I don't think that a Eurofighter contract in 2007 is related to an F-16 deal in 1997 falling through. Too big a time gap, too big a capability gap, too many alternatives which weren't taken up.
The F-16 block 60 was an unfinanced proposal until 1998, & the UAE funded it. Saudi Arabia trying to join in the negotiations (in full swing at the time we're discussing) would have been interesting. Also, since the UAE was granted permission to buy the thing, how does that square with the close friendship between Saudi Arabia & the UAE, both having similar relations with the USA, & Saudi Arabia being refused permission to buy it?
Where's your evidence for the Saudis requesting it a second time? Remember that you haven't actually given any evidence of them requesting it before, only them requesting price data on F-16 (model not specified). Price data is usually sought when considering whether to request the aircraft, & does not necessarily mean that they actually wanted ithe planes: they may merely have been seeking information to evaluate other options against. This is fairly normal. I fear that you are reading too much into things.
BTW, Saudi Arabia was still taking delivery of Strike Eagles at that time.
Maybe I am reading to much into this. I am quite interested in the ME countries especially Saudi so I may jump to conclusions sometimes on how military purchases maybe politically connected.
I couldn't remember where I read that they wanted the F-16 particularly the Block 60/62 but I found it here it; is scroll down to Saudi Arabia: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article27.html
And heres another link that states that the F-16 Block 60 discussions date back to 1996 right around the time Saudi Arabia asked for them: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article22.html
Then again maybe I'm reading way too much into this. But I still believe the Eurofighter deal and the F-16 request were connected because the F-16 announcement was made to replace their F-5's and they bout the Eurofighters to replace the F-5's they already had.
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The RSAF isn't as impressive in combat as it is on paper & despite having some key assets like the E-3A, & some inflight refueling assets it's ability to actually 'orchastrate' a campaign is questionable. It's more probable that it's forces can conduct limited defence (but against a depleted IRIAF or Iraqi AF under Saddam Hussein) this would be so hard, but they lack the ability to defend against dedicated ground assault & the RSAF doesn't have the assets needed to fend off a major ground invasion. Even the Army Apaches aren't exactly deployable either.
On the other hand, servicbility is shocking, & there are shortages in pilots & mechanics alike. Needless to say, Saudi pilots (from my dad's experience & he was an instructor on F-5s) spend about as much time on religious studies as they do in flight training. In the end, they really are religion students as much as they are pilots but the combination does not produce harmoney, it produces pilots who are only half-focused (note: my dad used to pray five times a day even when he was in the RMAF, although he wasn't one to get distracted) for instance, Saudi pilots often wouldn't practice because they had assignments overdue!
On the other hand, servicbility is shocking, & there are shortages in pilots & mechanics alike. Needless to say, Saudi pilots (from my dad's experience & he was an instructor on F-5s) spend about as much time on religious studies as they do in flight training. In the end, they really are religion students as much as they are pilots but the combination does not produce harmoney, it produces pilots who are only half-focused (note: my dad used to pray five times a day even when he was in the RMAF, although he wasn't one to get distracted) for instance, Saudi pilots often wouldn't practice because they had assignments overdue!
Thats why I said in the very beginning Saudi Arabia's air force isn't the best probably Egypt is. They actually have surplus of pilots that they send to serve in the UAE's air force and so on. But the RSAF dose have all of their planes flying with pilots, even though not all of them are Saudi some are Pakistani.
No evidence is required when Saudis are already decided on Euro Fighter. & I see more Middle Eastern Air Forces turning their backs on American products.
Like who for example? So far the Saudis haven't taken delivery of the Eurofighters and the deal ,as far as I know ,isn't sealed. Both the RSAF's and EAF's, IAF's, and the UAE-AF's (the 4 largest AF's in the middle east) front line fighters are 100% American.So which middle eastern countries are you talking about exactly?
The Saudis havent taken the EF-2000 delivery dsnt mean they r not taking it & as far as I remember u ur self stated the Egypt is looking into MiG-29SMTs.
The Egyptions abt couple of yrs back bought K-8 trainers (jointly developed by Pakistan & China), not only that they got ToT for that. & many ppl dnt knw tht Egyptions also had a chat abt JF-17 Thunder (another Pakistan-China project) & its ToT, along with ToT of SD-10 BVRAAM. But since it was kind of just a chat during IDEAS 2006.
The Libyans are looking into Europe for their Air force modernization & so are the Moroccons (though they are more of an African countries but nevertheless part of greater Middle East).
UAE is not 100% American dependent. Their fleet comprises of Mirage2000-9 as well, which are not much less qualitative. UAE is also investing in air-power & air-defence missile/weapon systems in cooperation with European countries & not with Americans.
Qatar airforce is based on Mirage2000-5 & BAE Hawks trainers.
The Egyptians are veering away from American equipment because the US denies them alot of stuff like the 24 F-15E's, the AIM-120, the JDAM. and the Saudis went with the typhoon because its the best in their eyes not to mention they were gunna buy f-16E's but denied. I think it is in both Israel and Americas interest to sell these weapons to the Arabs. Every time they get denied for something they go for something even better from a different country.Not to mention get pissed at America.
radiosilence
jints
I wonder in times of conflict would the Saudis and other Middle Eastern countries be able to count on these foreign nationals who supposedly make up a large portion of their airforce(gound crews and pilots etc.).
As far as the region of Hijaz is concerned the Pakistani Air Force pilots based in KSA will lay their lives down without thinking twice. As for the rest, the PAF officials are told to maintain deterrence & defence posture only. I dont think any country is willing to loose best of its men for another. Sad but reality, Saudis should emphesize more of Mechiavelli's concepts in their military thought.
However, since the defence of Hijaz is linked with the defence of rest of the KSA, I think the Pakistani pilots there wud not take the back seat in time of conflict.
Exactly the reason why ME countries are turning their backs to Americans - although its just a start.T-95 said:
UAE only agreed on F-16E/Fs when USA gave UAE ToT of spare parts & asured that weapon systems wont be barred in future. Still UAE is pursuing greater cooperation with Europe in air-power & air-defence.
The only way to future is to start your own projects & although Oil Rich ME countries have all the finance in the world, they neither have the man power nor will to establish their own R&D. Saudis once again, as usual, went for out right purchase (for Eurofighter) & did not even ask for cooperation in the project - no ToT for either complete product or spare parts. I dont think Europeans would keep the logistic supply open in times of conflict.
Not all ME countries have foreigners for pilots and ground crews. Egypt actually sends pilots to other countries. The only Americans in the Egyptian air force are there to train new pilot9although i think they stopped doing that now). As for the Pakistanis in the RSAF they are some of the best pilots currently based in the ME and they would score kills for Saudi no problem.
chaoticsensatio
New Member
I would agree with your's and Sabre's point here, the dening of equipment by the US, in the last two decades, has caused a major change in the future planning of the third world countries with in ME and even in other parts of the world. It also has impacted on the US influence in the region. At the same time Russia, China and Europe has taken good advantage of " to attend the ignored".
The impact of refusal can get very complicated and can become vital decisions to advantage or disadvantage in the long run.
For example, in early 80s Pakistan was in negotiation with the US for aircraft R&D fascility, but all of a sudden there was a policy shift, the idea was dumped and PK was given the F-16s in 83, followed by the sanctions right after the cold war. China introduced Pakistan to super seven project and they came out with JF-17.
I think RSAF is going under the same transition phase except RSAF is only looking for finished solutions instead of getting into R&D or ToT.
Alpha Epsilon
New Member
Here European fighters and trainers in Middle Eastern service:
RSAF: 120 Tornado GR1s and F3s and ca. 50 Hawks
UAEAF: Ca. 40 (iirc) Mirage 2000s and ca. 50 Hawks
Oman: Had Jaguars until recently and still have ca. 12 Hawk 100s/200s
Qatar: Had Mirage 2000s iirc
Bahrain: 6 Hawk 100s
Jordan: Ca. 18 C101s
Kuwait: Ca. 18 Hawks
The Eurofighter deal (and the Tornado upgrade deal) should be signed soon. There also opportunities for European jets with Saudi-Arabia (new Hawks), UAE (new Hawks or M346s), Oman (new Hawks), etc...
Egypt has one squadron of Mirage 2000 in front-line service.
UAE has bought ca 60 Mirage 2000-9, & they are very much front-line aircraft, having some capabilities (e.g. being able to fire Black Shahine missiles - a Storm Shadow/Scalp variant) which their F-16Es lack, & which the USA will not permit to be added to them.
Saudi Arabia has Tornados in front-line service. Their IDS Tornados are being upgraded, & will soon have capabilities their F-15s lack, e.g. the ability to fire Storm Shadow.
You guys are living in a make believe world that has no basis in reality.http://fas.org/asmp/profiles/notif_...=%&descin=&date1in=1992&date2in=2006&typein=%
They are buying our weapons as fast as we are making them. Already there is huge regional interest in the F-35.
Here, even tho "no evidence is required"
nfloorl: Some of you guys are just to much. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1111-02.htm"Turning their backs on us"? They are all bigger customers then they have ever been.