US Army making recruiting targets

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Dio, most of the people i know who've joined the military didn't do ot because of an external threat, they did it because they love their country, thought it would be a cool job or allways wanted to. Also there is a certain pride and respect that comes with military service, in this country at least. I think its rather simple to say that patriotism only works with a clear external threat like the GWOT. Why do people love representing their countries so much, not just in the military but diplomatically, on the sporting field ect? Mate thats all patriotism. Sure a clear threat will bumb recruiting but to say that without it no one would want to join the military is pretty simplistic. Also go easy on popeye. I agree we need look through the propaganda and bullsh*t, i think you and i might have the same views on some issues, but watch using it yourself. Stating that the war on terror is kept afloat to make recruiting targets or feed the U.S. military industrial complex is dangerous talk, and although i wouldn't mind debating this with you somewhare else, statements like that are just begging for a fight.

 

[dioditto]

Dio, most of the people i know who've joined the military didn't do ot because of an external threat, they did it because they love their country, thought it would be a cool job or allways wanted to. Also there is a certain pride and respect that comes with military service, in this country at least. I think its rather simple to say that patriotism only works with a clear external threat like the GWOT. Why do people love representing their countries so much, not just in the military but diplomatically, on the sporting field ect? Mate thats all patriotism. Sure a clear threat will bumb recruiting but to say that without it no one would want to join the military is pretty simplistic. Also go easy on popeye. I agree we need look through the propaganda and bullsh*t, i think you and i might have the same views on some issues, but watch using it yourself. Stating that the war on terror is kept afloat to make recruiting targets or feed the U.S. military industrial complex is dangerous talk, and although i wouldn't mind debating this with you somewhare else, statements like that are just begging for a fight.

Yes ofcourse, I do not deny I simplify the issues quite a bit.. maybe to dramatise the issue at hand. But I tend to think that, for people to join the military, it's sum of several VERY PRACTICAL ISSUES in their personal life.


Now, why is it dangerous to talk about this issue?? The recruitment shortfall is a critical issue in Australia and this discussion is to look at the issue in pragmatic manner.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Without external threat, people would not naturally want to join the military. This is why the war on terror, a war that is becoming the "perpetual war" is so important.

i've got a funny feeling i've missunderstood you but what did you mean by this statement? That the war itself is initiated and is continued to be fought just to feed the military industrial complex i.e make people richer? That without the war there would be no need for such huge spending on the military or munitions and equipment all made in the U.S. and therefore all the profits being made in the U.S.? if thats what you meant then that is dangerous talk. If not then forget what i've said cus i've compleatly misunderstood you.

 

[Big-E]

Haha! Some would say your biggest enemy is yourself.

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[watchman]

US Army

Haha! Some would say your biggest enemy is yourself.

Sad to say Americas biggest enemy is itself. Too many liberals from the media that more often than not portray the negative side of war. Too many liberal universities that do not teach the important leassons of history & warfare.

Result this new American generation as little perseverance. The public support for the war in Iraq is eroding because of casualties. Many current American families are losing heart that almost 3,000 U.S. troops already died. They forgot that in order to win World War 2, their ancestors sacrifice 400,000 troops to decisively defeat Germany & Japan. In the battle of Okinawa alone, within a few weeks time, as much as U.S. troops 12,000 troops died!

 

[RubiconNZ]

Sad to say Americas biggest enemy is itself. Too many liberals from the media that more often than not portray the negative side of war. Too many liberal universities that do not teach the important leassons of history & warfare.

Result this new American generation as little perseverance. The public support for the war in Iraq is eroding because of casualties. Many current American families are losing heart that almost 3,000 U.S. troops already died. They forgot that in order to win World War 2, their ancestors sacrifice 400,000 troops to decisively defeat Germany & Japan. In the battle of Okinawa alone, within a few weeks time, as much as U.S. troops 12,000 troops died!

The biggest problem is a definable enemy, the public at large need some one to rally against it always generally in the past been a country, Japan and Germany were a prominent threat and enemy, in Iraq and Afghanistan what a we fighting against? Iraq, No we are there to help, can't target that country afghanistan ditto, Muslims nope they are a broad and diverse group with many valuable members of society in all "allied" nations. The public is lost, fight against the terrorists? who are they? Osama is the only well known enemy at that is a well tapped resource, as for liberal universities, well universities have always been "liberal" since their inception that is part of their value out of the box thinking which might no always be correct but encourage freedom of thought and devlopment, Threat of invasion would see thousands enlist in the US Australia, UK and even NZ.

 

[Waylander]

Just because somebody is against a war, which has been justified in a very strange way (No WMDs found, no links to Al Quaida before the war, lies in front of the UN) and for which the planning for the afterwar operations has been awfull, they are weak?
And don't come with the argument that he was a cruel dictator.
There are dozens of dictators all around the globe which are at least as bad as Saddam was. And the west is still working together with them.

This is how democracy works. Just because there are people who have not the same opinion towards the war like the government should be no problem. Instead of a problem it should be healthy for the democracy in the US.

 

[abramsteve]

The biggest problem is a definable enemy, the public at large need some one to rally against it always generally in the past been a country, Japan and Germany were a prominent threat and enemy, in Iraq and Afghanistan what a we fighting against? Iraq, No we are there to help, can't target that country afghanistan ditto, Muslims nope they are a broad and diverse group with many valuable members of society in all "allied" nations. The public is lost, fight against the terrorists? who are they? Osama is the only well known enemy at that is a well tapped resource, as for liberal universities, well universities have always been "liberal" since their inception that is part of their value out of the box thinking which might no always be correct but encourage freedom of thought and devlopment, Threat of invasion would see thousands enlist in the US Australia, UK and even NZ.

I agree.

Patriotism is a difficult thing to grasp, and in many regards, lyes in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes I think its that fuzzy feeling you get when you hear the National anthem at the footy, other times it could be blind arrogance that you feel when sombody insults your nation. Just because someone doesnt or hasnt joined the military doesnt mean they dont love their country. Many of my mates have never considered joining the services, yet if all of a sudden some idiot was going to try to invade I'd bet every one of them would want to know where to enlist.

Its important for people to be able to tell the difference between what the soldier is doing and what the politicans are telling him to do. As simple as it seems somtimes people get blured images.

I attend a university, I am also joining the forces. Im going to not because I think Iraqs the right thing to do, or because Im a liberal voter or whatever... but Im going to because as a free citizen I feel we've got somthing worth protecting, and you know what, Im hopefully going to have a good time aswell!

Theres my 2cents!

 

[icelord]

2nd that steve, cept the uni part, i'd rather not waste my life...lol

 

[abramsteve]

2nd that steve, cept the uni part, i'd rather not waste my life...lol

Same here! If only I could convince my family of that....

 

[dioditto]

Sad to say Americas biggest enemy is itself. Too many liberals from the media that more often than not portray the negative side of war. Too many liberal universities that do not teach the important leassons of history & warfare.

Result this new American generation as little perseverance. The public support for the war in Iraq is eroding because of casualties. Many current American families are losing heart that almost 3,000 U.S. troops already died. They forgot that in order to win World War 2, their ancestors sacrifice 400,000 troops to decisively defeat Germany & Japan. In the battle of Okinawa alone, within a few weeks time, as much as U.S. troops 12,000 troops died!

The public support is eroding is not because of the casualty. It is because the public are starting to realise they have supported a regime that is waging an illegal war.

WWII is different. Germany and Japan have DIRECTLY attacked America, and it is justifiable to goto war with them no matter amount of the sacrifice to win the war for the peace and defense of oneself against such enemy.

 

[dioditto]

I agree.

Patriotism is a difficult thing to grasp, and in many regards, lyes in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes I think its that fuzzy feeling you get when you hear the National anthem at the footy, other times it could be blind arrogance that you feel when sombody insults your nation. Just because someone doesnt or hasnt joined the military doesnt mean they dont love their country. Many of my mates have never considered joining the services, yet if all of a sudden some idiot was going to try to invade I'd bet every one of them would want to know where to enlist.

Its important for people to be able to tell the difference between what the soldier is doing and what the politicans are telling him to do. As simple as it seems somtimes people get blured images.

I attend a university, I am also joining the forces. Im going to not because I think Iraqs the right thing to do, or because Im a liberal voter or whatever... but Im going to because as a free citizen I feel we've got somthing worth protecting, and you know what, Im hopefully going to have a good time aswell!

Theres my 2cents!

Good on you mate, for joining the military.

But your last sentence disturb me somewhat. I suppose "KILLING" is always fun in some people's book.

 

[icelord]

But your last sentence disturb me somewhat. I suppose "KILLING" is always fun in some people's book.

I think wat steve means is that he hopes his experience in the ADF is fun, while important, hell if you can't have fun in something you do, why the hell are you doing it? I've got the same opinion for my application.
Think the killing part is little excessive, thats just taking it out of context...do you happen to work for Beazley dio?

 

[RubiconNZ]

I think wat steve means is that he hopes his experience in the ADF is fun, while important, hell if you can't have fun in something you do, why the hell are you doing it? I've got the same opinion for my application.
Think the killing part is little excessive, thats just taking it out of context...do you happen to work for Beazley dio?

Indeed, how many people have the regular ADF actually killed in there world ops, then how many lives have been saved in eg East Timor, Somalia despite restrictive ROE's, Bosnia to name a few, I would actually think more Bob Brown, (spit twice and turn around and wash my keyboard out with soap) than Beazley, its atypical misunderstanding by "those" people, the Army is there to protect and when nescessary use lethal force not as Death Squad whose aim is to kill kill kill. As some would lead you to believe.

 

[abramsteve]

Good on you mate, for joining the military.

Thanks!

But your last sentence disturb me somewhat. I suppose "KILLING" is always fun in some people's book.

Umm maybe but not in mine. Like Icelord said, I mean the experience of being in the forces.

You seem to think like a lot of people I know, mainly uni people, who immediatley relate anything to do with the military to killing. This to me is disturbing. I never get into the whole 'killing is killing, or is killing for ones country different' debate, its one you cant win. Im not having a go at you, I just wonder why that is (in general, not personaly) because if that perception could be challenged then maybe there would be less trouble with recruting.

 

[icelord]

don't worry steve(hmm, it is ur name right?) but many uni students from newie are the same, a mate argues to death during history lectures, which are trying to educate about past wars, with the anti-military group, this is why many political parties target uni students for membership, cause they think they know it all cause they go to uni, again, not having a go at u dio, but hey u know its true.
Too many people are anti-military in australia because of NAM, it could be 500 ppl but this is 499 too many-i care little for Bob 'sparky' Brown so hes the 1.
Thanks to the whole getting bak to basics with history and a new wave of patriotism(not the cronulla type!), ANZAC days have grown to its largest numbers with people supporting the Returned Veterans and their legacy they have made. We don't hate our serving and former members of the ADF, and wat happened in the return from nam is a joke, as well as the currently helled beliefs about Long tan, where they fought in true Digger spirit.

 

[abramsteve]

Well alot of uni students are know it all's, but some are just there as a means to an ends. But on the whole I'd say your right on!

The biggest problem with unis, at least by my own experience, is that the tutors (like a class room teacher) are able to bring their own views into disscusions, which is a pretty potent opinion swayer. I had a World Politics tutor try to tell us that the US bombs Cuba all the time (he also belonged to the Australian socialist movement) and the most horrifying thing was that people who knew no differently were willing to believe him, Not because they were anti American, but because he was a tutor. You know what I mean? Another thing that always interests me is how lots of uni tutors go from being a uni student to a tutor straight away. Clearly they know lots about the world outside....

At least at school levels things are looking better. My 7 year old sister can tell me about Gallipoli and the Kakoda trail. She doesnt know the politics behind it, but that is unimportant compared to the human story.

BTW yea Steves my name

 

[dioditto]

Indeed, how many people have the regular ADF actually killed in there world ops, then how many lives have been saved in eg East Timor, Somalia despite restrictive ROE's, Bosnia to name a few, I would actually think more Bob Brown, (spit twice and turn around and wash my keyboard out with soap) than Beazley, its atypical misunderstanding by "those" people, the Army is there to protect and when nescessary use lethal force not as Death Squad whose aim is to kill kill kill. As some would lead you to believe.

I don't doubt the mission of the army is to protect.
But the mentality of "having fun" in battlefield is a dangerous one to have. This is exactly why we have these scandals of Private Kovco and also ADF soldiers displaying blantant disregard of law. ("Playing" with firearms in barrack- and you wonder why there wasn't more casualties resulting from these)

Worst would be to "seek" fun in local population, and resulting in such thing as Mahmudiyah incident.

 

[dioditto]

I think wat steve means is that he hopes his experience in the ADF is fun, while important, hell if you can't have fun in something you do, why the hell are you doing it? I've got the same opinion for my application.

I think the perceptions of a lot of people joining the military nowadays is that it is exciting, it is just like a "VIDEO GAME". This isn't helped by the fact that US Army is using exactly that, video game as recruitment tool. So, it is not too far fetch to assume that a lot of soldiers exhibit such mentality.

Think the killing part is little excessive, thats just taking it out of context...

Perhaps it is a little bit excessive. I am sorry I have say it. But I like to bring my point across. Becoming a professional soldier is a serious business.

do you happen to work for Beazley dio?

What does my party affliation have to do with anything? What?? I can't state my opinion now ?? Only rightwing rednecks are allowed to state his opinions?

 

[Grand Danois]

I think the perceptions of a lot of people joining the military nowadays is that it is exciting, it is just like a "VIDEO GAME". This isn't helped by the fact that US Army is using exactly that, video game as recruitment tool. So, it is not too far fetch to assume that a lot of soldiers exhibit such mentality.

Perhaps it is a little bit excessive. I am sorry I have say it. But I like to bring my point across. Becoming a professional soldier is a serious business.

What does my party affliation have to do with anything? What I can't state my opinion now ?? Only rightwing rednecks are allowed to state his opinions?

The US may have some "novel" ways of recruiting. I can tell you that how it done in my country, it is nothing but sober. "Fancy" ways of recruiting would be subject to fierce criticism.

I think you're letting yourself being taken away by ideology and semantics, disregarding the motives and very serious choices and considerations behind a military career.

It may be lack of empathy or comprehension, it could also be an unwillingness to accept that others may have a different outlook because it doesn't fit yours.