The Future of Britain.

[Chips]

No, I understand where you're coming from. But as you go on to say, the EU is divided and rudderless. The problem is that the French can't accept that they don't run it anymore and the Germans don't want to pay for it. An EU that accepted a military policy largely run and planned by the UK might get somewhere. But given that would mean many member states actually spending more than 0.01% of GDP on defence it isn't going to happen.

To be honest I think the UK is doing ok all things considering. It still punches way above its weight and is a top-tier power (the US aside, as it's in its own class). Complaints that things are otherwise are down to harking after the "glory" days of ruling a large chunk of the world and shooting brown or black people that wanted independence.

Of course, Britain is always listed as a big headache for the EU, but we certainly aren't the only ones. Infact, given the defence cooperation with France it seems the biggest 'spanner' in the works, at least as far as defence goes in the EU, is likely to be Germany. They tend to want to stray away from conflict and would likely, and quite rightfully so, have a large issue with them being the biggest economic provider to a military that they don't really want. I'm outside the UK at the moment living in Estonia to study the EU and how these small member states work within it and obviously Estonia doesn't have much they can bring to the table, although they are certainly better off than the other baltic states as at least they have the massive cyber security hub going for them. As you say with the 0.01% of GDP though, unfortunately for the bigger states in the EU, including Britain, any future EU military cooperation is going to have to be a lot of give and not much take. At least though Estonia shows the example of the fact that smaller states can contribute in ways outside of manpower and resources by providing services and expertise, which is perhaps a way forward, but it would take a lot of convincing for the bigger states that this is a fair and good idea.

In my opinion, at least, the biggest shame for the future of Britain and the EU was the decision to join the JSF program. It would have been nice to have seen another EU developed project like the Eurofighter to promote further intergration, but it's nice to see that we've managed to sign cooperation with the French at least, which is a big step in the right direction. I suppose the solution to a divided and rudderless EU would be to build a european defence community outside of the EU with the possability to intergrate it later, or not if it's not necessary. That way it totally avoids issues that the EU has right now that it might solve later, but allows us to start intergrating now rather than later.

Either way, I certainly agree with that last statement. That's the biggest problem for Britain in almost all aspects, that people need to accept that we're not the country we were any more. We can, and do, still punch well above our weight, and being outside the UK and interacting with a lot of 'international types', one thing I've learned is that there is an extremely high level of respect for the British military in Europe (to the point where I've been told by scholars on the subject that there can never be an EU military without big British cooperation), so we are still a force to be reconed with, but unfortunately we can't do that alone on the global stage any more. Then we have to choose whether we persue a future with America or Europe, and I've always felt that it would be a better future working with your neighbour that it would be with your long-distance friend, even if you get along better with the latter. That said, with America's eyes turning to Asia it might be that we don't share as many interests as we used to, and that would leave us only with Europe where the relationship is much more mutual as opposed to the fairly one-sided relationship with the US.

 

[ASSAIL]

European leaders need to revisit the words of "Teddy" Roosevelt, "talk softly and carry a big stick". Seems to me that Europe's soft policy protagonists do exactly the opposite

 

[overlander]

Britain is now in a difficult process concerning to defense, the royal navy has been cut to operational limit, without carrier strike capability, the 2 carriers are being built simply because cancellation contracts make totally unaffordable the cancellation of the project but this was the original idea of the coallition government and with 19 escorts and counting down is totally impossible to keep the sea lanes open in a conflict.
In 2014 only hms ocean will be the only big platform for embarked helicopters.
The number of fighters to be embarked in the 2 carriers remain uncertain, I think that 1 carrier finally will be sold simply because will have no enough number of squadrons for the F.A.A. and because if during 11 years carriers strike have been deleted what is the problem to maintain only 1 carrier, even it will sound as a progress, better 1 carrier than nothing as in the previous 11 years. Brazil, India or even China maybe candidates to buy the carrier at a very reasonable price.

The raf with only 200 operational fighters is totally overstretched and the army with only 150 challenger tanks and after the heavy cuts Royal army have less firepower than spanish or Italian armies.

By comparison France wich has finantial and economic problems too have not cutted the armed forces practically nothing in the last 2 years, even they have improved the amphibious capability with 3 new Mistral class ships.

Italy and Spain close to the bankrupt have done soft defence cuts and nothing compared to the heavy and massive cuts Britain have done.

The difference in my opinion is that british politicians of 2011 are not interested in defence and consider it like a secondary matter.

Spain with 23 % unemployment will not put for disposal any of the 2 operational carriers because these are red lines not possible to pass, the same as Italy, Britain with the last massive cuts have overpassed the tolerable and acceptable red lines reducing british military capability.
Can you imagine France scrapping the carrier Charles de Gaulle ??, french politicians are much more sensible to defence matters than british counterparts as is being demostrated with acts.

France is now a more balanced armed forces than Britain and especially without so heavy pressure on defence budget as Britain.
Morale in the british armed forces is not the best simply because they don,t know if in the near future more cuts will be introduced.

 

[swerve]

Spain has stopped paying suppliers. It owes a few billion at the moment. That can't go on forever. Deliveries will stop, if the suppliers aren't being paid. They can't afford to keep making and delivering weapons, spares, fuel, munitions, food, uniforms, & everything else without pay. Such 'soft' cuts end up with armed forces with no training, no stocks of munitions, fuel, or spares, old weapons worn out & no new ones - no operational capacity. The only ways to avoid that are either turn the money tap back on, or make some 'hard' cuts, to bring the size of the forces in line with the budget.

BTW, there is no such thing as the "Royal army". It's the British army.

 

[Jhom]

Spain has stopped paying suppliers. It owes a few billion at the moment. That can't go on forever. Deliveries will stop, if the suppliers aren't being paid. They can't afford to keep making and delivering weapons, spares, fuel, munitions, food, uniforms, & everything else without pay. Such 'soft' cuts end up with armed forces with no training, no stocks of munitions, fuel, or spares, old weapons worn out & no new ones - no operational capacity. The only ways to avoid that are either turn the money tap back on, or make some 'hard' cuts, to bring the size of the forces in line with the budget.

BTW, there is no such thing as the "Royal army". It's the British army.

The budget is by no way what you can call "big", the next spanish goverment will cut from education or social security but no from the armed forces.

You will be surprised to know how really well optimized is the military budget in Spain, plus Spain cant afford to loose the remainig capabilities of its armed forces, the carrier is a must for the Armada, the same with the Marines... or the Leos for the Army, they are not negociable at this point, the politicians cant afford loosing all the votes from the shipyards and the workshops

BTW what is the matter with the spanish armed forces? they are pretty small, with a low budget and they are not deployed too far from Spain, we have an small army, a small air force and a medium/small navy... why should them become ever smaller?

 

[Astute]

Britain is now in a difficult process concerning to defense, the royal navy has been cut to operational limit, without carrier strike capability, the 2 carriers are being built simply because cancellation contracts make totally unaffordable the cancellation of the project but this was the original idea of the coallition government and with 19 escorts and counting down is totally impossible to keep the sea lanes open in a conflict.
In 2014 only hms ocean will be the only big platform for embarked helicopters.
The number of fighters to be embarked in the 2 carriers remain uncertain, I think that 1 carrier finally will be sold simply because will have no enough number of squadrons for the F.A.A. and because if during 11 years carriers strike have been deleted what is the problem to maintain only 1 carrier, even it will sound as a progress, better 1 carrier than nothing as in the previous 11 years. Brazil, India or even China maybe candidates to buy the carrier at a very reasonable price.

The raf with only 200 operational fighters is totally overstretched and the army with only 150 challenger tanks and after the heavy cuts Royal army have less firepower than spanish or Italian armies.

By comparison France wich has finantial and economic problems too have not cutted the armed forces practically nothing in the last 2 years, even they have improved the amphibious capability with 3 new Mistral class ships.

Italy and Spain close to the bankrupt have done soft defence cuts and nothing compared to the heavy and massive cuts Britain have done.

The difference in my opinion is that british politicians of 2011 are not interested in defence and consider it like a secondary matter.

Spain with 23 % unemployment will not put for disposal any of the 2 operational carriers because these are red lines not possible to pass, the same as Italy, Britain with the last massive cuts have overpassed the tolerable and acceptable red lines reducing british military capability.
Can you imagine France scrapping the carrier Charles de Gaulle ??, french politicians are much sensible to defence matters that british counterparts as is being demostrated with acts.

France is now a more balanced armed forces than Britain and especially without so heavy pressure on defence budget as Britain.
Morale in the british armed forces is not the best simply because they don,t know if in the near future more cuts will be introduced.

Yes the current defence cuts are reshaping the the UK armed forces but i dont think there is any reason to panic ( YET), Firstly the Uk is an Island so does it really need a big army for defence look at are location is there a threat of invasion or a conflict on are door step no we are surrounded by the sea and allies its different if you are located on the main land of Europe like Germany,France etc the threat is different a large army is seen as a must, but even they are cutting there armed forces ,
The future British army will be a very different looking force not the cold war relic it as been ,it needs to be rebalanced , firstly the cuting of regulars so the armies make up is about a balanced 70% regulars and the TA being at 30% will bring us inline with the current US,and other allies armies make up,
The British army will be better armed more deployable and able to fight more effectively in any future conflicts and if needed the army can grow again but at this time i really dont see the need , by 2014-15 the 10.000 troops will be all but home from afganistan and the redeployment home of the 20.000 troops from Germany will be starting,
The loss of some heavy armour isnt the end of the world many countries are cutting there heavy armour as well, i would say its had its day, it takes time to deploy heavy armour unless you are fighting close to home which isnt the case for the british army, and the fire power of attack helicopters, and infantry AT teams means its not the force on the battlefield it use to be, But the tanks we do have are one of the best in the world,and so are our Attack helicopters 67 Apaches


The Royal Navy is still one of the best Navys in the world, yes i agree the current number of ships is low for the deployments the navy is asked to do,but the capabilities of the navy is improving all the time by 2012 the first 3 new type 45s will be ready for deployments,the other 3 are flying through there first sea trials or fitting out ,the type 23s are going through a very good upgrade process which will greatly improve there capabilities. The uk is still spending big on defence the problem is we never get value for money, and there are gaps in capabilities which need to looked into and sorted.


But the force planned for the Royal navy in the future force 2020 concept will give the Royal Navy a real punch ( 6 Type 45s ,13 type 26s, 1 (may be 2) aircraft carriers with jsf, 7 Astute class Attack subs and of cause a new nuclear deterent planned ,(we will know in 2015) ,YES YES i know the carriers , is it 1 or 2 who knows but yes they will be well over budget i would say only a few at the top really knows all the rest is hear say im afraid i would say 1 deployed 1 at extended readiness. ( sell one to China really i dont think so )
I cant see the problem that the faa will not have the aircraft to deploy an airwing which i would say will be 6-12 ,inlarged to may be 24-30 if needed as the RAF and the FAA will be using the same model jsf f-35c so im sure the raf pilots will be multi trained ,so can build up a carriers air group if needed ,
But with a planned increase to the defence budget from 2015 onwards (Britain even now with the cuts is still one of the biggest defence budgets in the world) who knows the planned 13 type 26s may increase to 16 may be a batch 2 type 45s and bae might get a pig to fly we just dont know.......

The Raf is still a powerful force typhoon,tornado, f-35 jsf in the future,as well has unmanned aircraft,like reaper,predator etc new transport planes, new refueling aircraft starting to be delivered (Voyager) a heavy lift helicopter capability soon to be 60 chinooks, its not how many strike aircraft you have its the capabilities of the aircraft you have and how you use them,

 

[overlander]

Spain has stopped paying suppliers. It owes a few billion at the moment. That can't go on forever. Deliveries will stop, if the suppliers aren't being paid. They can't afford to keep making and delivering weapons, spares, fuel, munitions, food, uniforms, & everything else without pay. Such 'soft' cuts end up with armed forces with no training, no stocks of munitions, fuel, or spares, old weapons worn out & no new ones - no operational capacity. The only ways to avoid that are either turn the money tap back on, or make some 'hard' cuts, to bring the size of the forces in line with the budget.

BTW, there is no such thing as the "Royal army". It's the British army.

Sorry about the expression, concerning to Spain the new conservative government has declared that the cuts in defence will be a 10 % of servicemen and nearly 30 % of civilian workers but NOTHING of military power, the 2 carriers will remain untouched, the number of escorts will increase from 11 to 12 with the addition of the new F100 frigate and the strenght of MBT Leopard and artillery of the army and the number of military aircraft will remain unchanged, another example that british politicians are the less concerned of Europe in defence matters, no other major country will be able to make such heavy even dangerous defence cuts in my opinion

 

[swerve]

BTW what is the matter with the spanish armed forces? they are pretty small, with a low budget and they are not deployed too far from Spain, we have an small army, a small air force and a medium/small navy... why should them become ever smaller?

You misunderstand. I did not suggest that the Spanish armed forces should be cut. I pointed out that the current spending level is not enough to maintain them - hence the unpaid bills. That situation is not sustainable.

 

[overlander]

Yes the current defence cuts are reshaping the the UK armed forces but i dont think there is any reason to panic ( YET), Firstly the Uk is an Island so does it really need a big army for defence look at are location is there a threat of invasion or a conflict on are door step no we are surrounded by the sea and allies its different if you are located on the main land of Europe like Germany,France etc the threat is different a large army is seen as a must, but even they are cutting there armed forces ,
The future British army will be a very different looking force not the cold war relic it as been ,it needs to be rebalanced , firstly the cuting of regulars so the armies make up is about a balanced 70% regulars and the TA being at 30% will bring us inline with the current US,and other allies armies make up,
The British army will be better armed more deployable and able to fight more effectively in any future conflicts and if needed the army can grow again but at this time i really dont see the need , by 2014-15 the 10.000 troops will be all but home from afganistan and the redeployment home of the 20.000 troops from Germany will be starting,
The loss of some heavy armour isnt the end of the world many countries are cutting there heavy armour as well, i would say its had its day, it takes time to deploy heavy armour unless you are fighting close to home which isnt the case for the british army, and the fire power of attack helicopters, and infantry AT teams means its not the force on the battlefield it use to be, But the tanks we do have are one of the best in the world,and so are our Attack helicopters 67 Apaches


The Royal Navy is still one of the best Navys in the world, yes i agree the current number of ships is low for the deployments the navy is asked to do,but the capabilities of the navy is improving all the time by 2012 the first 3 new type 45s will be ready for deployments,the other 3 are flying through there first sea trials or fitting out ,the type 23s are going through a very good upgrade process which will greatly improve there capabilities so things are not that bad. The uk is still spending big on defence the problem is we never get value for money,


But the force planned for the Royal navy in the future force 2020 concept will give the Royal Navy a real punch ( 6 Type 45s ,13 type 26s, 1 (may be 2) aircraft carriers with jsf, 7 Astute class Attack subs and of cause a new nuclear deterent planned ,(we will know in 2015) ,YES YES i know the carriers , is it 1 or 2 who knows but yes they will be well over budget i would say only a few at the top really knows all the rest is hear say im afraid i would say 1 deployed 1 at extended readiness. ( sell one to China really i dont think so )
I cant see the problem that the faa will not have the aircraft to deploy an airwing which i would say will be 6-12 ,inlarged to may be 24-30 if needed as the RAF and the FAA will be using the same model jsf f-35c so im sure the raf pilots will be multi trained ,so can build up a carriers air group if needed ,
But with a planned increase to the defence budget from 2015 onwards (Britain even now with the cuts is still one of the biggest defence budgets in the world) who knows the planned 13 type 26s may increase to 16 may be a batch 2 type 45s and bae might get a pig to fly we just dont know.......

The Raf is still a powerful force typhoon,tornado, f-35 jsf in the future,as well has unmanned aircraft,like reaper,predator etc new transport planes, new refueling aircraft starting to be delivered (Voyager) a heavy lift helicopter capability soon to be 60 chinooks, its not how many strike aircraft you have its the capabilities of the aircraft you have and how you use them,

Believe me I would like to see that in 10 years Britain is finally a well balanced military power with 2 carriers (I think that the price thay can get for the sale of 1 of them will not compensate the sale of it, in the worst situacion extended readiness will be the best solution but salami slicing is always present in british politicians for defence questions)
Thyphoon and enough numbers of f35,s.
The army as you have mentioned is not necessary to maintain so may tanks in service but a minimum number is required mainly to be deployed outside Britain in a medium scale operation or an allied mounted deployment.
The world is becoming more and more uncertain and in this context I would like to see a decent military british military capability as it will be necessary for the european stability and the protection of our european way of life.

 

[overlander]

You misunderstand. I did not suggest that the Spanish armed forces should be cut. I pointed out that the current spending level is not enough to maintain them - hence the unpaid bills. That situation is not sustainable.

As Jhom mentioned the new spanish governemt will have to cut in many matters before to cut the military capability, reduction in civilian manpower and around 10
% servicemen are the only proposed cuts in defence budget but military capability will remain untoucched in the medium term.

 

[Astute]

Believe me I would like to see that in 10 years Britain is finally a well balanced military power with 2 carriers (I think that the price thay can get for the sale of 1 of them will not compensate the sale of it, in the worst situacion extended readiness will be the best solution but salami slicing is always present in british politicians for defence questions)
Thyphoon and enough numbers of f35,s.
The army as you have mentioned is not necessary to maintain so may tanks in service but a minimum number is required mainly to be deployed outside Britain in a medium scale operation or an allied mounted deployment.
The world is becoming more and more uncertain and in this context I would like to see a decent military british military capability as it will be necessary for the european stability and the protection of our european way of life.

I agree the sale of one carrier would be a good idea but there would be billions lost and who could we sell it to South American countries are changing the way they look at the UK i would say most are becoming more anti than pro and not just the usual suspect and China wow there would be a political mess if ever there was one that deal would never happen or would ever be on the table we would never sell a capability like an aircraft carrier to a country like China a protential foe of are biggest allies no way but i bet they would fall over them selfs and pay big for it , I would say France maybe at a discount with maybe a few Mistral class ships in with the deal, this would fill a few gaps in the uks defence needs and more hulls in the water,

I totally agree we must co-opperate with are European allies this would cut the costs of getting the very best tec and equipment but there are always politics involved in such projects and that is why most break down and fail,

 

[swerve]

As Jhom mentioned the new spanish governemt will have to cut in many matters before to cut the military capability, reduction in civilian manpower and around 10
% servicemen are the only proposed cuts in defence budget but military capability will remain untoucched in the medium term.

You don't seem to understand that military capability will not, and can not, remain untouched unless more money is spent. If the bills aren't paid, deliveries of spares, fuel, etc. will stop. The suppliers (commercial firms, many of them foreign) won't, & in some cases can't, keep delivering goods they don't get paid for.

What happens to military capability when Eurofighter or Airbus or Boeing stops delivering spare parts? Or aviation or marine fuel suppliers stop delivering? Or new aircraft are put into storage at the manufacturers, instead of being handed over?

The Spanish MoD has a large & increasing debt to suppliers, because it's not been making payments. What do you think is going to happen about that?

 

[ASSAIL]

British Army in Germany

Yes the current defence cuts are reshaping the the UK armed forces but i dont think there is any reason to panic ( YET), Firstly the Uk is an Island so does it really need a big army for defence look at are location is there a threat of invasion or a conflict on are door step no we are surrounded by the sea and allies its different if you are located on the main land of Europe like Germany,France etc the threat is different a large army is seen as a must, but even they are cutting there armed forces ,
The future British army will be a very different looking force not the cold war relic it as been ,it needs to be rebalanced , firstly the cuting of regulars so the armies make up is about a balanced 70% regulars and the TA being at 30% will bring us inline with the current US,and other allies armies make up,
The British army will be better armed more deployable and able to fight more effectively in any future conflicts and if needed the army can grow again but at this time i really dont see the need , by 2014-15 the 10.000 troops will be all but home from afganistan and the redeployment home of the 20.000 troops from Germany will be starting,
The loss of some heavy armour isnt the end of the world many countries are cutting there heavy armour as well, i would say its had its day, it takes time to deploy heavy armour unless you are fighting close to home which isnt the case for the british army, and the fire power of attack helicopters, and infantry AT teams means its not the force on the battlefield it use to be, But the tanks we do have are one of the best in the world,and so are our Attack helicopters 67 Apaches


The Royal Navy is still one of the best Navys in the world, yes i agree the current number of ships is low for the deployments the navy is asked to do,but the capabilities of the navy is improving all the time by 2012 the first 3 new type 45s will be ready for deployments,the other 3 are flying through there first sea trials or fitting out ,the type 23s are going through a very good upgrade process which will greatly improve there capabilities. The uk is still spending big on defence the problem is we never get value for money, and there are gaps in capabilities which need to looked into and sorted.


But the force planned for the Royal navy in the future force 2020 concept will give the Royal Navy a real punch ( 6 Type 45s ,13 type 26s, 1 (may be 2) aircraft carriers with jsf, 7 Astute class Attack subs and of cause a new nuclear deterent planned ,(we will know in 2015) ,YES YES i know the carriers , is it 1 or 2 who knows but yes they will be well over budget i would say only a few at the top really knows all the rest is hear say im afraid i would say 1 deployed 1 at extended readiness. ( sell one to China really i dont think so )
I cant see the problem that the faa will not have the aircraft to deploy an airwing which i would say will be 6-12 ,inlarged to may be 24-30 if needed as the RAF and the FAA will be using the same model jsf f-35c so im sure the raf pilots will be multi trained ,so can build up a carriers air group if needed ,
But with a planned increase to the defence budget from 2015 onwards (Britain even now with the cuts is still one of the biggest defence budgets in the world) who knows the planned 13 type 26s may increase to 16 may be a batch 2 type 45s and bae might get a pig to fly we just dont know.......

The Raf is still a powerful force typhoon,tornado, f-35 jsf in the future,as well has unmanned aircraft,like reaper,predator etc new transport planes, new refueling aircraft starting to be delivered (Voyager) a heavy lift helicopter capability soon to be 60 chinooks, its not how many strike aircraft you have its the capabilities of the aircraft you have and how you use them,

Can one of the more knowledgeable posters please explain the rationale for keeping such a large British force in the european powerhouse economy?
When such large cuts to capability are made to the RN, the expenditure incurred in manning and maintaining this force is, to this antipodean, almost Monty Pythonesque.
The cold war has ended why, why, why

 

[StevoJH]

Can one of the more knowledgeable posters please explain the rationale for keeping such a large British force in the european powerhouse economy?
When such large cuts to capability are made to the RN, the expenditure incurred in manning and maintaining this force is, to this antipodean, almost Monty Pythonesque.
The cold war has ended why, why, why

Because it was cheaper to leave it there then to build the facilities back home that would be required to move it back.

Recent/future force cutbacks mean that new facilities either wont be required or will be required in much smaller numbers.

 

[ASSAIL]

Because it was cheaper to leave it there then to build the facilities back home that would be required to move it back.

Recent/future force cutbacks mean that new facilities either wont be required or will be required in much smaller numbers.

I am not an expert on the BA hence my question, however, referring to wiki with all its limitations, i find the following:
The 2009 review will cut total numbers in the army to 95,000 a reduction of only 7,000 by 2013.
The current strength of the deployed British Army force in Germany is 40,000 troops and 20,000 civies. This is to be halved by 2015 and removed by 2020
Under this scenario there seems to be enough capacity in the UK to have all the troops home now.
The cost of travel, o'seas allowances etc etc surely must be horrific and, under the current strategic and economic circumstances, it would seem logical to bring them back sooner rather than later.
Must be some very influential Generals sitting at Westminster.

19 destroyers and frigates for goodness sakes.........Give the once proud RN a break

 

[StobieWan]

I am not an expert on the BA hence my question, however, referring to wiki with all its limitations, i find the following:
The 2009 review will cut total numbers in the army to 95,000 a reduction of only 7,000 by 2013.
The current strength of the deployed British Army force in Germany is 40,000 troops and 20,000 civies. This is to be halved by 2015 and removed by 2020
Under this scenario there seems to be enough capacity in the UK to have all the troops home now.
The cost of travel, o'seas allowances etc etc surely must be horrific and, under the current strategic and economic circumstances, it would seem logical to bring them back sooner rather than later.
Must be some very influential Generals sitting at Westminster.

19 destroyers and frigates for goodness sakes.........Give the once proud RN a break

Leaving the troops there gets the MOD around having to provide a stack of new homes for service personnel right at a time they have just pushed a load of renovation work into the future to avoid expense right now. I see what you're saying but it wouldn't produce any savings right now (the very opposite in fact) so better to leave things where they are and then work out what needs to be moved where, with possibly the bulk of them simply not being replaced as they're rotated out.

Ian

 

[swerve]

Because it was cheaper to leave it there then to build the facilities back home that would be required to move it back.

Recent/future force cutbacks mean that new facilities either wont be required or will be required in much smaller numbers.

Not quite. It's partly because past governments sold off as much of the military housing & land stock in the UK as they could, not considering whether it might be cheaper to keep some of it & use it to house troops moved back from Germany, & only afterwards realised that they'd rendered the option of pulling out of Germany much more expensive than it need have been.

The army was cut by 54000 between 1989 & 2007, which is slightly less than the numbers in BAOR & Berlin. Numbers in Germany were cut by 36000. Total numbers of troops in the UK were cut at the same time, & bases & housing sold. IIRC all the RAF personnel & aircraft in Germany in 1989 could have been re-housed in UK facilities vacated as a result of cuts.

 

[ASSAIL]

Not quite. It's partly because past governments sold off as much of the military housing & land stock in the UK as they could, not considering whether it might be cheaper to keep some of it & use it to house troops moved back from Germany, & only afterwards realised that they'd rendered the option of pulling out of Germany much more expensive than it need have been.

The army was cut by 54000 between 1989 & 2007, which is slightly less than the numbers in BAOR & Berlin. Numbers in Germany were cut by 36000. Total numbers of troops in the UK were cut at the same time, & bases & housing sold. IIRC all the RAF personnel & aircraft in Germany in 1989 could have been re-housed in UK facilities vacated as a result of cuts.

Does the MOD ever consider the private rental market with subsidies? It's a lot cheaper than owning the stock.

 

[swerve]

1) It's not just housing.
2) Private rentals aren't always available where the MoD wants them.
3) Private rentals can't provide the right type of housing for some of what the MoD wants.

 

[ComeonBritain]

who knows the planned 13 type 26s may increase to 16 may be a batch 2 type 45s and bae might get a pig to fly we just dont know.......

That would make my whole year!
Is there any plan on a second batch of type 45s? I presume it's a but too early for an increase for the type 26s, maybe when the budget increases they might announce it.

Thanks to everyone for your contributions, I'm enjoying reading these