Switzerland halts Saab Gripen E aircraft procurement, $3.5 billion in 2013 orders

[kato]

For the most part, people shrugged their shoulders and were of the opinion that if money's tight, priorities have to be set.

The incident mostly fuelled the anti-Gripen movement. As in "if apparently QRA ain't seen as a priority so they don't pay pilots for night duty - why do they need to spend money on new jets?" The problem here was mostly that VBS previously tried to use QRA duties as justification for what later became the Gripen program, and people do remember that.

 

[AegisFC]

The Swiss likely have the same problem as Canada would in opting for Superhornets. The amount of time required for getting funding in place, issuing a RFQ, and getting an actual order off will occur after the SH production line closes down. A USN purchase of more Growlers between now and early 2015 is the only way this line can last long enough for a possible order for Superhornets from Canada as no formal order for SHs or F-35s will come until after our 2016 election.

I'm going off memory here, but the Swiss wanted pretty much a direct F-5 replacement and the SHornet was considered to be to large and expensive and thus wasn't considered even though the Typhoon and the Rafale was.

 

[kato]

Nah, Boeing was initially in the running with the SH, but dropped out of the tender on its own in March 2008 claiming a "requirement gap" that would have made it unlikely for them to win against the other three.

Or in other words, they estimated that they wouldn't be able to underbid them or offer enough in compensation business. Probably because at that point, Dassault was waving around promises of near-200% trade-off compensation.

 

[AegisFC]

Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks for the correction.

 

[StobieWan]

This does leave Sweden pretty tucked up in terms of getting E flying - they'd previously said they definitely needed Swiss participation to get the thing to fly - I wonder if the Brazillian tie up fixed that? And I wonder how many of the contracts to Swiss firms will be ditched?

 

[RobWilliams]

AFAIK they've since said they'll go it alone, presumably because they know Brazil is a sure thing

 

[t68]

The same outcome would happen in Canada and probably for any selected jet. Perhaps people in Australia are not stupid but in Canada people are stupid. Just look at how our country is falling apart due to people electing morons at the municipal, provincial, and federal level.

Perception is king when it comes to politics or style over substance is how most people get elected, it's not just a problem in Canada one only has to look at the last federal goverment in Australia.

 

[Bonza]

Nah, Boeing was initially in the running with the SH, but dropped out of the tender on its own in March 2008 claiming a "requirement gap" that would have made it unlikely for them to win against the other three.

Or in other words, they estimated that they wouldn't be able to underbid them or offer enough in compensation business. Probably because at that point, Dassault was waving around promises of near-200% trade-off compensation.

Thanks for that, good information to have. I would have thought they'd go down the path of "already being a Hornet operator" (even though there's only something like 10% commonality between the Rhino and Hornet), but that explanation makes a lot of sense. Cheers.

 

[koxinga]

Should this be viewed as a vote against Gripen E as the replacement or a vote against the idea that there should be an replacement for the F-5 in the first place?

 

[tonnyc]

Should this be viewed as a vote against Gripen E as the replacement or a vote against the idea that there should be an replacement for the F-5 in the first place?

It's a vote against spending billions on fighter jets. In theory this doesn't mean they can't replace the F-5, but considering that modern fighter jets are expensive, it works out the same as not wanting to replace the F-5.

Defense is not cheap.

 

[StobieWan]

Gripen was probably the best option for a modern fast jet. A LIFT jet with winders? There's a couple on the market?

 

[colay]

A LIFT like the F-50 would be a low-cost option in it's current configuration. Upgrades like AESA radar, AMRAAM, targeting pods, F414, etc. are reported to be in the jet's roadmap but the added expense negate any cost,advantage it enjoys over Gripen.

 

[koxinga]

A LIFT like the F-50 would be a low-cost option in it's current configuration. Upgrades like AESA radar, AMRAAM, targeting pods, F414, etc. are reported to be in the jet's roadmap but the added expense negate any cost,advantage it enjoys over Gripen.

If it's a vote against a F-5 replacement, then I doubt even a pimped up F/A-50 would pass the referendum.

My question is really about what is at the hearts of the voters in Switzerland. Yes, cost is probably a consideration, but it also has to do with perceptions (or lack of) of threats and priorities.

 

[pkcasimir]

This does leave Sweden pretty tucked up in terms of getting E flying - they'd previously said they definitely needed Swiss participation to get the thing to fly - I wonder if the Brazillian tie up fixed that? And I wonder how many of the contracts to Swiss firms will be ditched?

The sale of the Gripen to Brazil is hardly a done deal. The engines and most of the major system components are US or UK. The Brazilians are demanding a great deal of technology transfer that Saab just does not have the authority to grant. The whole issue of technology transfer of foreign licensed or owned components has still to be negotiated and it is unlikely that the US will agree to what the Brazilians are demanding. Roussef has burned her bridges with the Obama administration and is unlikely to receive a sympathetic ear. Nor, does the US Congress have any special affection for Brazil

 

[tonnyc]

If it's a vote against a F-5 replacement, then I doubt even a pimped up F/A-50 would pass the referendum.

My question is really about what is at the hearts of the voters in Switzerland. Yes, cost is probably a consideration, but it also has to do with perceptions (or lack of) of threats and priorities.

It didn't help that the Switzerland government basically ceded the media landscape to the opposition. This allowed the opposition to shape the public perception.

 

[Volkodav]

Looking outside the square I wonder if a JAS 39 C/D lease could still be an option for Switzerland? Its a real leap in capability over the F-5E/F and likely much more affordable than the Gripen E/F.

 

[StobieWan]

It's possible they could lease or buy the C - Sweden has already indicated they're going new build for E rather than re-work the existing airframes. It's hard to read without knowing the political landscape - if there's a definite trend against replacing the F5's and they've already campaigned and won against Gripen E, I suspect anything with "Gripen" in the title is a gonner.

 

[swerve]

As I understand it, it's generally felt that the 'No' vote was motivated by opposition to the idea of buying new jet fighters in general, & was not Gripen-specific.

What follows from that is that in the near future, the acquisition of new fighters will be very difficult, regardless of model. To have any chance of success, it must be shown that there's a need (i.e. something has to be done that the current fleet of F-18s can't do), & that the price is worth paying.

Nobody who voted 'No' will be convinced that Switzerland needs to spend money on more fighters while the current fleet sits on the ground outside office hours because the state thinks it has higher priorities for spending than 24 hour air defence. And, to be fair, they have a point. The current F-18 fleet is perfectly adequate for providing Monday-Friday 9-5 air policing. Indeed, it's overkill. The remaining F-5Es are plenty for that job, & if confined to that, could last a while.

The Swiss state & armed forces need to think about what Switzerland needs, & demonstrate to the public that their procurement decisions are based on an assessment of needs (which they utterly failed to do this time) before trying to sell a big purchase to the public.

Lease, buy, Gripen, F-22 - it doesn't really matter, in this context. Seriously, how can you justify to the taxpayers spending a few billion on fighters to replace part of your fleet, when you ground your entire air force out of office hours to save a vastly smaller sum? That's the issue here. How does Switzerland persuade the voters that it needs any new fighters?

 

[kato]

As said before, the "no" only affects the special fonds the government wanted to establish to pay for the aircraft outside the regular military budget. If the military would buy or lease aircraft within its regular allotted budget there'd be no voting sheep intervention.

 

[swerve]

But given the number of things that can be voted on in Switzerland if you get enough signatures, is it that hard for it to be blocked?

And how could the military fund such an acquisition within a budget which is so tight it's not funding out of office hours air policing?