Sweden/Soviet Union provocative actions

Maskirovka

Banned Member
I can see why the export policy would be a problem and could restrict sales. I seem to recall problems with supplies to Australia, when the army was using the Carl Gustav in Vietnam, but these have evidently been resolved based on the fact that the Australians still use it along with other Swedish weapon systems like the RBS70. And of course Kockums was responsible for the design of the Collins class submarines.

Cheers
But these issues are mostly a thing of the past. The swedish companies have found away around this; they´ve been sold off to french, US or UK companies!

So no you can buy a swedish weapon, and still get delievered stuff when you are at war. The stuff is still being produced in Sweden and shipped via england. Is´nt it clever?
BTW. RBS 70 is still going strong. It´s considered the best MANPAD in the world, both australia, austria and Sweden have recently upgraded it. And just recently Finland, the Check Republic and Latvia have bought it to replace newer russian gear.

Don´t get me started on the Collins....
 

kilo

New Member
So is the navy. The russians only have 2 subs in the baltic sea. The swedish navy has 4. It will take at least 20 years before they can do anything...
Yes, but Russia has many submarines in its north sea fleet including two sierra IIs which have enough torpedoes/missiles to destroy the whole Swedish navy.
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
Yes, but Russia has many submarines in its north sea fleet including two sierra IIs which have enough torpedoes/missiles to destroy the whole Swedish navy.

Yeahhhhhhh................
But if you would have had just a little bit of geography-knowledge and a liiiiiitle bit of common sense, you would have realised that those subs does´nt pose any threat in the baltic sea.




Why?
They are in the north fleet.


So?
look at the map
 

kilo

New Member
Those subs could be off Gotland island in two at 20kts(13kts below full speed) weeks with the time time they will have to slow down to avoid ASW forces make it two-three weeks.
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
Those subs could be off Gotland island in two at 20kts(13kts below full speed) weeks with the time time they will have to slow down to avoid ASW forces make it two-three weeks.

Apparanly u know knothing about the geography in the straits between Sweden and Denmark.

Now, would Denmark had been another Kalingrad that move might perhaps have worked, But Denmark aint....


Sorry dude, there´s no way a sub can pass Öresund or the danish straits, it is impossible for the ruskies to get their northern fleet to attack sweden. They would have to put the smaller boats on lorrys and transport them the on roads all the way to Tallin.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
An injected comment:

United Nations Convention
on the Law of the Sea

Section 3. INNOCENT PASSAGE IN THE TERRITORIAL SEA
SUBSECTION A. RULES APPLICABLE TO ALL SHIPS


Article 20
Submarines and other underwater vehicles
In the territorial sea, submarines and other underwater vehicles are required to navigate on the surface and to show their flag.

Article 25
Rights of protection of the coastal State
1. The coastal State may take the necessary steps in its territorial sea to prevent passage which is not innocent.

2. In the case of ships proceeding to internal waters or a call at a port facility outside internal waters, the coastal State also has the right to take the necessary steps to prevent any breach of the conditions to which admission of those ships to internal waters or such a call is subject.

3. The coastal State may, without discrimination in form or in fact among foreign ships, suspend temporarily in specified areas of its territorial sea the innocent passage of foreign ships if such suspension is essential for the protection of its security, including weapons exercises. Such suspension shall take effect only after having been duly published.

http://www.globelaw.com/LawSea/lsconts.htm

These are applicable to the Danish Straits. The Straits are so narrow, that there is absolutely no way that a SSN is going to sneak past without detection and tracking.
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
There have been a lot talk here about the swedish crew who lost their lives spying for USA/UK.

This is a ripoff from mil.photo.net wich is a rippoff from mil.se
By signatory:

54 years on, a missing air crew is finally written into stone
Another chapter in the history of the cold war is now closed...
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8403/dc3minneshall4wy6.jpg
Background:

1952 June 12: A Swedish DC-3 goes missing over the Baltic sea.

1952 June 15: A Catalina plane involved in the search for the missing 8 man crew was also attacked and shot down by MIG-15 jets.

The catalina suffer 4 waves of attack and had to crash land, but survived as they could be rescued by a German boat.

The DC-3 crew was never found and both the Swedish and Russian military kept quiet. The official line in Sweden was that Russia had unprovoked shot down a DC-3 training plane. The Russians otoh said they never even fired on a DC-3.

1991: The cold war is over, Russia now admit to shooting down the DC-3.

1993: Over 50 years has passed and Swedish documents become declassified since no further reason exists.

The Swedish military now confim rumours that it had flown a SIGINT mission for Sweden, UK and the USA. Packed with the latest electronics.

2003: A civilian search ship finally find the DC-3 on 120m depth. But 25 Km further east than as marked on the military maps. It is believed the 'error' was intentional.

2004: The Plane is lifted from the bottom using the HMS Belos salvage ship and transported to Muskö navalbase.

The plane is full of gun holes.
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/1860/0021017042minneshall640af5.jpg
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1849/trevapen2de1.jpg
The missing names as it looked in the past
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4991/dc3tu4.gif
The recovered plane at Muskö base

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7411/kulor298gp9.jpg
Gun holes in and near the insignia

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6012/overflygningfanvakt640hg4.jpg
In 2004 the relatives receive a private ceremony
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
An injected comment:

United Nations Convention
on the Law of the Sea

Section 3. INNOCENT PASSAGE IN THE TERRITORIAL SEA
SUBSECTION A. RULES APPLICABLE TO ALL SHIPS


Article 20
Submarines and other underwater vehicles
In the territorial sea, submarines and other underwater vehicles are required to navigate on the surface and to show their flag.

Article 25
Rights of protection of the coastal State
1. The coastal State may take the necessary steps in its territorial sea to prevent passage which is not innocent.

2. In the case of ships proceeding to internal waters or a call at a port facility outside internal waters, the coastal State also has the right to take the necessary steps to prevent any breach of the conditions to which admission of those ships to internal waters or such a call is subject.

3. The coastal State may, without discrimination in form or in fact among foreign ships, suspend temporarily in specified areas of its territorial sea the innocent passage of foreign ships if such suspension is essential for the protection of its security, including weapons exercises. Such suspension shall take effect only after having been duly published.

http://www.globelaw.com/LawSea/lsconts.htm

These are applicable to the Danish Straits. The Straits are so narrow, that there is absolutely no way that a SSN is going to sneak past without detection and tracking.
Thats what I´ve been saying.



But it would be fun seing the northern fleets subs surfacing and trying to sneak by as fishingboats...


Just like the whiskey on the rocks tried to do. It would have been a grand hunt, swedish Hkp-4 with torpedoes/dephcharghes and danish the danish coast guard dont know what to do
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
We still have a couple of STANFLEX in ASW config around. That should do the job. Just as a MU-90 dropped from a helo would. No need for big searches in the Straits - nowhere to hide and heavily monitored.
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
We still have a couple of STANFLEX in ASW config around. That should do the job. Just as a MU-90 dropped from a helo would. No need for big searches in the Straits - nowhere to hide and heavily monitored.
Hunting SU subs in he danish straits would have been a walk in the park.

Remember that Sweden had hunted SU mini-subs/and conv.subs in the most diddicult terrain ever. And we perfected it, swedish subhunters could place a anti-sub grenade at the exact place and force the sub retreat.
(We did´nt dare to sink one, killing 20 russian saliors, we detonated our torpedoes and depth-charges ahead of the sub so it could withdraw.

Sweden became the world champions in ASW, but they never sank a sub. That is a great accomplishment! You try to explode a mine 90 metres away from its target when you could have destroyed it at 75 metres... It would be so fun to talk to a russian saloir that made it into the swedish waters, I can imagine how those mines or depth charges would have rocked my world.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I can only answer in what the way I want the swedish defence to be.
Yes, in the least week there have been reports that we should look at what the russkies are doing.


AFAIK that wont be a problem. In sweden they have transformed all brigades into armoured battalions, mech. battallions, arty. battallions and so on. Ten years ago we had like 20 brigades, now we maybe have like 5-10 it´s still enough to be be able to grow and face any potentional threat. Our forces are alot more mobile today aswell. In a few years we will have an air assault brigade. The army is smaller and much more flexible.

The airforce had almost 400 fighters 15 years ago.
Tomorrow it will have like 100-150. On the other hand. 15 years ago the russians fighters could´nt reach our territory. Except a few hundred MiG-29, Su-24 , and so on.
So the airforce is well set


So is the navy. The russians only have 2 subs in the baltic sea. The swedish navy has 4. It will take at least 20 years before they can do anything...
Maskirovka, I hadn't realised how much the Swedish forces have shrunk in size. 400 fighters 15 years ago down to 100-150 tomorrow! One of my first military aviation books,William Green, World Aircraft Directory, Butler and Tanner, London, was published in 1961, when the Royal Swedish Air Force was the fifth largest in the world, based on the number of operational combat aircraft. At that time it had approx 700 front line aircraft in 24 day fighter, 6 all weather fighter, 12 all weather attack and 5 recce squadrons, backed up by Bloodhound and Hawk SAM batteries. I couldn't get over how a country with such a small population could have such a powerful air force, but with its long borders and coastline, I guess there was no alternative, if it was to be able to defend its neutrality.

Fortunately the forces of countries bordering Sweden have also shrunk and qualitatively Sweden seems to be well equipped. What do you think are the main areas of Sweden's armed forces that need to be improved to preserve the balance of power with Russia?

Cheers
 

kilo

New Member
Does anyone have an accurate chart of the danish straights? specifically one showing depth and currents? if there is water there has to be some way a sub can get through.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
I found a chart heres the link http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/61562.pdf

Are these depths in meters?
The numbers are soundings in fathoms (=1.829m). In Øresund a Sierra II will only be able to transit in the navigation channels if surfaced. If you look at the map you'll notice that the maximum depth at some points of a transit is 7 m.

Then there is the Øresund Bridge to consider which only have one point of passage for a vessel the size of a Sierra II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Øresund_Bridge

The same circumstances apply to Lillebælt, where there would be 15-20m in the middle of the channel, which is 250m wide, but the Strait is extremely narrow and also has a bridge.

Storebælt generally has a depth of 20 m and a 35 m channel in the middle carved out by a Ice Age river. However, there is also a bridge and all the traffic is using this feature as a navigation channel. Where the bridge is, the depth is around 6-7 m leaving the 400 m wide channel as the only option.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Belt_Bridge

In Øresund there is no choice other than being surfaced and the other two straits have single entry and exit points.

They are also heavily monitored.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I found a chart heres the link http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/61562.pdf

Are these depths in meters?
According to the accompanying chart, it listed depths in fathoms, which is 6 feet or a little under two metres. I tried to enlarge the actual chart, but couldn't increase magnification enough to read the depths without distortion. The chart appears to be from 1970, but not sure if the conversion to nautical depths had been done in metres or left as fathoms, or even measured in feet given it was a US product.

As for the depth of water, etc. obviously a sub can pass through. The question becomes, can a sub pass through submerged. According to the chart, at the shallowest, the depths if only 5 fathoms at two different points. That would in IMV keep a number of subs from safely transiting submerged. Not being a submariner I can't say for certain, but I would be uncomfortable in a sub with a draught of 7m passing through submerged in 9m of water. Not to mention, if it was done, would 2m of water be sufficient to avoid detection? I somehow doubt it would be effective. Now if a sub was in a main shipping channel, I believe those have greater depths than 5 fathoms, but there would still be potential observation by shipping, not to mention the risk of collision.

-Cheers

PS Well, GD beat me to the punch... I hadn't even taken into account any bridges passing through the area.
 
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Maskirovka

Banned Member
Maskirovka, I hadn't realised how much the Swedish forces have shrunk in size. 400 fighters 15 years ago down to 100-150 tomorrow! One of my first military aviation books,William Green, World Aircraft Directory, Butler and Tanner, London, was published in 1961, when the Royal Swedish Air Force was the fifth largest in the world, based on the number of operational combat aircraft. At that time it had approx 700 front line aircraft in 24 day fighter, 6 all weather fighter, 12 all weather attack and 5 recce squadrons, backed up by Bloodhound and Hawk SAM batteries. I couldn't get over how a country with such a small population could have such a powerful air force, but with its long borders and coastline, I guess there was no alternative, if it was to be able to defend its neutrality.

Fortunately the forces of countries bordering Sweden have also shrunk and qualitatively Sweden seems to be well equipped. What do you think are the main areas of Sweden's armed forces that need to be improved to preserve the balance of power with Russia?

Cheers

In my book "Ett år i luften" a swedish airforce "own" book from 1964 it claims Sweden had 850 frontline aircraft back in 1962, and supposedly was the 4th largest in the world (after USA, USSR and China). Don´t know if that´s true. The a/c back then were Draken, Lansen and Tunnan.


The reduction of the swedish forces really took off in the 70´s. At this time it was mainly the naval forces that was affected. From having a blue water navy in 1970/late 60´s (wich had a couple of cruisers and a couple of dozen destroyers/frigates) we built an brown water navy with MTB´s and FAC´s. At the same time the number of subs were allmost cut in half.

All the submarine hunts in the swedish waters (wich escalated in the 70´s and resulted in Whisky on the rocks in 1981) showed that the navy needed more resources. It was still to be a brown water navy but more money were invested in ASW, like helicopters, corvettes and such. At the same time the introduction of the Viggen was expensive so the airforce cut back to 4-500 aircrafts, but they were still given the same/or more amount of money. At the 80´s the biggest loser was the army, the number of brigades decreased and more seriuos, the army was´nt modernized...

The end of cold war left us with and airforce of some 360+ fighters, 20 armybrigades, 12 subs and 30-40 FACs and HUGE reserves (mainly armyreserves, several hundreds of battalions). Since the army was so obsolete and big they were the first one to the slaughter. 20 brigades became 16, then 12. then transformed into rapid deployment battalions or something like that- I don´t even know how many they are today. But at least the army got some new flashy equipment (Leo2 tanks, CV90, nightvision gear, ARTHUR, etc). The airforce and navy have been downsized with roughly 2/3´s. With 204 Gripens ordered to the SwAF, 28 already being sold to Hungary and Czheck and more are being offered I think the SwAF will end up with something like 120 a/c. The navy will due with 4-5 subs and about 10 corvettes.

The main focus today is international duties within UN, the EU and rapid deployment forces. Sweden has commited about 2000 soldiers to the EU rapid deployment forces, mainly in the Nordic Battlegroup. It´s bulk consists of a swedish armoured battalion, JAS-39 Gripen fighterwing, corvettes, subs and swe/fin amphibous battalion. And beside that Sweden have increased its forces under UN-colours. Having large contingents in Afghanistan, Kosovo and just finishing a mission in Liberia plus having a corvette ouside Lebanon.

With all these cuts and shifting the focus on defending the homecountry to international missions the swedish forces still have kept the ability to grow and shift once again on more "traditional" homeland defence tasks. Maybe we will soon see such a shift, in the last weeks voices have been raised in sweden (as well as Norway and Finland) about a concern in the growing strenght in russian military in our neighbourhood as well as a more "agressive" russian attitude in foreign policy. Such a shift will mean more money to the armed forces and not a step down in the international mission capabilities.

One good thing with all these cut downs and shifting of defencepolicies have at least meant one good thing. The swedish forces have top of the notch gear! We basicly went from trucks, Centurions, flares, 90mm ATG and WW2 howitzers to CV90, Leo2S, nightvision goggles, BILL-2 ATGM and ARCHER... :)

The main area that needs to be improved IMO is the navy. We need bigger ships with longer endurance. But there are plans to build a couple of frigates so... Other then that I don´t see how russia could pose any military threat against Sweden in a foreseeable time. It was different in the cold war when they had the whole of eastern baltic sea and our biggest threat were amphibousoperations, their airborn divisions and frontline bombers/fighters. Today those threats does´nt exist, and will never do- thanks to geographic reasons. A strong navy is still important to defend your own borders, specially in peacetime. The worst scenario is if Russia in the future would invade and occupy Finland. Then Sweden would be in an even worse stragetic position then during the cold war. But such an attack would have the world reacting and sweden would immediately beacome a NATO-member, the most important member. :)
 
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