I was just wondering how South American armed forces compared to the rest of the world. Obviously they are well equipt with western equipment and I believe they can be some of the strongest forces in the world. I think Brazil is the most powerful nation in South America. How do they compare to the rest of the world?
South American Armed Forces
- Thread starter NZLAV
- Start date
I'm going to post in general terms about South American armed forces, please don't fire back over a few exceptions.
Do you remember the Falklands? The Argentine armed forces with many transcripts were very capable of invading the islands and sinking British shipping, but were not able to maintain their presence on the islands. The volunteer British forces were able to retake the islands with slightly newer technology and better training.
It is still the same today. While many of the South American nations have seen significant economic growth, and with their armed forces getting smaller pieces of their governments appropriations, their defence forces are still not up to a NATO standards.
Having said that, I want to say they fall short not in organization, but in equipment. Outside of Chile their air forces are near obsolete. Their naval forces are not brand new except for several diesel electric submarines, and their armies are mostly fitted with equipment a generation behind NATO.
Fortunately, their airmen, sailors, and soldiers are well trained, their leadership is up to par with NATO. While most of the South Aemerican armed forces are involved mostly with stabilizing their own nations, not being involved with any UN missions abroad, Brazil sent police forces to East Timor and Argentina sent a couple of ships to the Arabian Sea.
I have been involved in US sponsored Unitas exercises with these nations, and have been awed by their abilities to wage anti-submarine, anti-surface, and anti-air warfare with their ageing ships. Their patrol vessels are able to do the fishery protection, observe and enforce their customs, and do search and rescue missions.
If the South American armed forces were able to receive the funding of NATO nations for equipment and pay a salary equal to NATO personnel, I honestly believe they would be able to match NATO in quantity and quality. Unfortunately, all of these nations are developing economies.
Do you remember the Falklands? The Argentine armed forces with many transcripts were very capable of invading the islands and sinking British shipping, but were not able to maintain their presence on the islands. The volunteer British forces were able to retake the islands with slightly newer technology and better training.
It is still the same today. While many of the South American nations have seen significant economic growth, and with their armed forces getting smaller pieces of their governments appropriations, their defence forces are still not up to a NATO standards.
Having said that, I want to say they fall short not in organization, but in equipment. Outside of Chile their air forces are near obsolete. Their naval forces are not brand new except for several diesel electric submarines, and their armies are mostly fitted with equipment a generation behind NATO.
Fortunately, their airmen, sailors, and soldiers are well trained, their leadership is up to par with NATO. While most of the South Aemerican armed forces are involved mostly with stabilizing their own nations, not being involved with any UN missions abroad, Brazil sent police forces to East Timor and Argentina sent a couple of ships to the Arabian Sea.
I have been involved in US sponsored Unitas exercises with these nations, and have been awed by their abilities to wage anti-submarine, anti-surface, and anti-air warfare with their ageing ships. Their patrol vessels are able to do the fishery protection, observe and enforce their customs, and do search and rescue missions.
If the South American armed forces were able to receive the funding of NATO nations for equipment and pay a salary equal to NATO personnel, I honestly believe they would be able to match NATO in quantity and quality. Unfortunately, all of these nations are developing economies.
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I would say that Brazil has a modern air force. They have AMX fighters and are looking for replacements for the mirage III's. They also have 200 Tucanos, 100 of which are well armed. I would say that is modern? The Brazilian army operates relitively modern vehicles and are probabably the most powerful force in the region. The Brazilian navy has 15 frigates, all well armed. Some are old but they are still well equipt. They are currently developing nuclear submarines. When a Mirage III replacement is found, wouldn't you compare their air force to a NATO countries?
The Brazilian army operates several hundred Leopard tanks, which a lot of NATO countries use. They have a huge inventory of artillary and have 409 EE-9's. The EE-9 is not new but is stil a high performing fighting vehicle.
The Brazilian army operates several hundred Leopard tanks, which a lot of NATO countries use. They have a huge inventory of artillary and have 409 EE-9's. The EE-9 is not new but is stil a high performing fighting vehicle.
Brazil's armed forces -its airforce and navy anyway - are fairly well equipped at best. They have decent platforms but with limited capabilities and in now way compare to the sort of weapons systems feidled by most NATO nations:
1. AIR FORCE
46 F-5E/F - about 36 are operational - they are going through an upgrade that will certainly inmmprove their cpabilities, but only one upgrade hasbeen delivered so far. Even when the upgrades are completed, they will still be no where in the same league as somthing like the F-16 Block 50/52
12 used Mirage 2000 were ordered from France. They will replace the Mirage III's. Decent aircraft, but still no where near the same as the F-16's.
45 AMX - decent attack platforms, but certainly not as capable as most aircraft fielded by NATO
THey do have a bunch of Tucanos, but the majority are utilized for training roles. If I am not mistaken, about 20 to 30 are dedicated to a COIN role
NAVY
One carrier that has a published wing of 15 A-4's, but only 6 are active at any one time; an dthose A-4's have no significant ASuW capability.
14 Frigates - Some are new, but armament is limited to very basic SAMs and Exocets.
Actually, I would put Chile's airforce/navy over Brazil's
contedicavour
New Member
Well well... basic SAMs ... the 6 Niteroi have Aspide 2000 (20km range and Mach 3.5, with Dardo E illuminators with a range of 40km). The other ships are 4 (3 active) ex RN Broadsword Batch 1 with Seawolf.
Chile will now have 2 ships with SM1-MR (ex Dutch), 3 ex RN with VLS Seawolf and another 2 Dutch ships with VLS Sea Sparrow. Oh, and an 8th and last frigate, a Broadsword Batch 2 with non VLS Seawolf.
=> Although I'd still give an edge to Chile because of the SM1-MR, Brazil's carrier plus its 9 SAM equipped FFGs means IMHO that Brazil has better overall air defence capabilities than Chile's Navy.
cheers
Conte:
I usually defer to your wisdom, but let me run something by you and see if you do not agree:
BRAZIL CHILE
AIRCRAFT No carrier based fighters, but if
Carrier with 6 fighters that have no Brazil was ever intending to use its
ASuW wepon besides cannon and carrier based A-4s to protect its
dumb bombs - they are indeed an fleet from land based aircraft
asset when it comes to protection
against enemy aircraft, but a very
limited one at that
SUBS
4 Tupi 2 Scorpene ane 2 T209
As far as I can guess these
are about the same vs Chile
SURFACE FLEET
14 Frigates 8 Frigates
AsUW WEAPONS
14 Platforms with 56 MM40 8 Platforms with 4 MM38 Exocet and
Exocet 56 Harpoon
Pretty closely matched, but the Harpoons vastly out range the Exocets
AA WEAPONS FOR DEFENSE VS AIRCRAFT AND ASM
9 Platforms with 36 Sea Wolf 8 Platforms with 108 Sea Wolf,
and 48 Aspide 40 Sea Sparrow, and 80 SM-1
(TOTAL of 84 SR SAMS) (TOTAL OF 228 SR SAMS)
SAM cabable platforms are about the same, but Chile's ships have a lot more usable rounds
contedicavour
New Member
I agree the 2 navies are pretty close in terms of capability levels.
My point was more focused on AAW/air defence.
In a hypothetical (and completely not realistic given the friendly relationship between the 2 countries) scenario of direct confrontation away from both countries' shorelines, Brazil's A4s could shoot down Chile's helicopters armed with Exocets and doing OTH targeting for the ships' SSMs. Without OTHT Chile's mix of Harpoons and Exocets wouldn't fare any better than Brazil's shorter ranged MM38 and MM40. Hence it would come down to who has more ships with SSMs and Brazil would carry the day.
So to summarize I wouldn't use the A4s to attack Chile's FFGs because the SM1s would shoot them down 40km away from target, but rather as pure air defence with their Sidewinders and cannons. Or, eventually, as escorts for Brazil's ASH-3D helos equipped with Exocets. If the AM39 were launched outside of the envelope of the SM1, the Chilean ships would have to rely purely on Seawolf and the Dutch Goalkeepers for self protection. Delicate situation.
Anyway, as I said, Brazil and Chile are 100 times more likely to cooperate in joint missions than to end up opposing each other.
cheers
Excellent points
The news that Venezuela is buying 9 SSKs that was reported by contedicavour on another thread today will certainly have implications for other South American navies and the USN.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=89159#post89159
Countries like Brazil and Chile have a reasonable number of frigates but I wonder how up to date their ASW sensors and weapons are. Perhaps this is an area that will need to be given a much higher priority in the future (presuming the Venezuelan plans come to fruition). Is anyone able to provide info re the effectiveness of ASW forces in this region?
Cheers
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=89159#post89159
Countries like Brazil and Chile have a reasonable number of frigates but I wonder how up to date their ASW sensors and weapons are. Perhaps this is an area that will need to be given a much higher priority in the future (presuming the Venezuelan plans come to fruition). Is anyone able to provide info re the effectiveness of ASW forces in this region?
Cheers
contedicavour
New Member
As a partial answer I can say Brazil for example lacks VDS / towed array sonars on most of its FFGs - or , said the other way around, only 4 Niterois have VDS and no ships carry towed array sonars.
Same for Argentina btw.
That's quite a handicap although embarked Superlynx can do a very good job of tracking SSKs.
Vs Chile I don't know if the ex RN Type 23 and ex Dutch Doorman have kept their VDS/TAS systems after transfer. Does anybody know ?
cheers
With reference to the Brazilian Navy ASW capability:
- ALL VDS were removed during the Niteroi Class Frigate Upgrade Program (MODFRAG) 1996-2006.
- All Niteroi class EDO 610E sonars were upgraded to the EDO 997(F).
- The Brazilian Navy operates (5) SH-3 Sea King helicopters with the AN/AQS-18(V) active/passive dipping sonar and MAD.
- (4) Tupi Class (IKL-209) will have combat management, sonar and fire control and weapons launch system upgrades by Lockheed Martin to employ the MK 48 Mod 6AT heavyweight torpedo.
Chile celebrates the commissioning of the Almirante Condell
29 May 08
Chile officially welcomed the Almirante Condell (the former-HMS Marlborough) into the Chilean fleet at a Commissioning Ceremony yesterday, Wednesday 28 May 2008.
The former HMS Marlborough was re-named the Almirante Condell and the Director General of Procurement, Vice-Admiral Cristian Jantes, officially invested her new commanding officer, Captain Jorge Cruz at Her Majesty’s Naval Base, Portsmouth.
Read more
(Source: UK Ministry of Defence; issued May 29, 2008)
29 May 08
Chile officially welcomed the Almirante Condell (the former-HMS Marlborough) into the Chilean fleet at a Commissioning Ceremony yesterday, Wednesday 28 May 2008.
The former HMS Marlborough was re-named the Almirante Condell and the Director General of Procurement, Vice-Admiral Cristian Jantes, officially invested her new commanding officer, Captain Jorge Cruz at Her Majesty’s Naval Base, Portsmouth.
Read more
(Source: UK Ministry of Defence; issued May 29, 2008)
i feel that ,even though the braziian airforce is a very professional force and capable force ,i think they should increase their combat capability further.
Brazil AF
On a side note nothing to do with the UAE or Brazil, France just put 9 F1 Rafale's in storage not long ago.
Maybe some kind of deal will be worked out with the UAE for the Mirage 2000-5/9 fighters down the road, one never knows. One thing for sure they won't be cheap the UAE paid top dollar for those fighters. Brazil would have themselves a capable fleet of fighters which would match up pretty nicely against other South American air forces.
On a side note nothing to do with the UAE or Brazil, France just put 9 F1 Rafale's in storage not long ago.
Those Rafales have been replaced in service by Rafale F2s, & are planned to be upgraded to F3 standard later. I don't see them being offered for sale, or anyone being interested in a handful of Rafales at a standard which will soon no longer exist elsewhere.
Yes, the possibility of the UAE retiring its Mirage 2000s opens up interesting opportunities. Let's see: India scraps or reduces the MMRCA deal, negotiates a 3-way deal with France in which the French take the M2Ks in part exchange for Rafales (picking up the Qatari planes at the same time) & sells them on to India, with an upgrade package (to be carried out in India, of course)?
That would give India about 120 M2K, of which 50 or so would be fairly new & low hours.I will go with a long shot. . . . India and Brazil are now cash rich as emerging market countries with positive balance sheets and cash flows. Unfortunately both have slow bureaucratic processes which run at a snail's pace which means MRCA is further delayed and subsequently scrapped like Brazil's previous F-X program. We are now well past 2012 and only one viable contender remains, . . the F-35 JSF.Those Rafales have been replaced in service by Rafale F2s, & are planned to be upgraded to F3 standard later. I don't see them being offered for sale, or anyone being interested in a handful of Rafales at a standard which will soon no longer exist elsewhere.
Yes, the possibility of the UAE retiring its Mirage 2000s opens up interesting opportunities. Let's see: India scraps or reduces the MMRCA deal, negotiates a 3-way deal with France in which the French take the M2Ks in part exchange for Rafales (picking up the Qatari planes at the same time) & sells them on to India, with an upgrade package (to be carried out in India, of course)?
If we're past 2012, then we're pretty much in open waters. Anything, from the Chinese J-XX to the PAK-FA, to the Russo-India 5th gen. (if it is indeed a different project rather then the PAK-FA). By then even the F-22 could end up cleared for export (around 2020-25).
I'm surprised everyone overlooks the Venezuelan air force. They have the most modern aicraft in the region.
I wouldn't discount the PAK-FA or the J-XX either, however, do these fit the MRCA and the new FX-2 program criteria? Hard to say since both are just concepts being developed. At least the F-35 is in flight testing and will be operational sooner than the Russian or Chinese versions.
Most likely you have high regards for the FAV (Venezuela) with their new Su-30MK2 fleet. I would still give the edge to the FACH (Chile) with their F-16s (a variety) armed with JDAM, AMRAAM and Pythons as well as a handful of F-5s. The Chileans are quite a bit more professional than the FAV. Same with the FAB (Brazil) with their Mirage F-2005C/D with Magic II and Super 530D and F-5s with Python III. Even with their new Sukhois, I would not put the FAV at the top in South America.