Replacement for the SAW?

F-15 Eagle

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  • #21
Why not 300rd?

Why not 500rd?

Why is 200rd belt better than a 100rd drum?

Don't just throw numbers around. Please share your thinking.
Because if you replace the 200 round SAW with a 100 round IAR that is a down-grade in capability. You have half the volume of fire and you will have to reload twice as often. I also thought I'd throw out the fact that belts are much more reliable then drums. Drums tend to jam way to much. There is a reason why the U.S. Military went for the 200 round belt feed SAW.
 

Chino

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Because if you replace the 200 round SAW with a 100 round IAR that is a down-grade in capability. You have half the volume of fire and you will have to reload twice as often.
Have you ever tried clearing rooms with 7kg M249? Plus 200rds of ammo that should make it around 9 to 10kg in your hands, maybe more.

That's why the USMC is searching for a "Infantry Automatic Rifle" - not another SAW.

Nor, for that matter, are they saying that the IAR will replace ALL the SAWs.

I also thought I'd throw out the fact that belts are much more reliable then drums. Drums tend to jam way to much. There is a reason why the U.S. Military went for the 200 round belt feed SAW.
Please show proof instead of "throwing out" so-called facts. Or perhaps you have fired many drums from other SAWs and they jammed on you?
 
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F-15 Eagle

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Have you ever tried clearing rooms with 7kg M249? Plus 200rds of ammo that should make it around 9 to 10kg in your hands, maybe more.

That's why the USMC is searching for a "Infantry Automatic Rifle" - not another SAW.

Nor, for that matter, are they saying that the IAR will replace ALL the SAWs.


Please show proof instead of "throwing out" so-called facts. Or perhaps you have fired many drums from other SAWs and they jammed on you?
Whats your sources? Do you have any sources about the IAR having 100 round mags?

They already have M4s for room clearing. Whats next, make a shorter sniper rifle for room clearing.:rolleyes:
 

Chino

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Whats your sources? Do you have any sources about the IAR having 100 round mags?

They already have M4s for room clearing. Whats next, make a shorter sniper rifle for room clearing.:rolleyes:
OK, I can see where this is going...

It is quite obvious that I am talking to someone who is just shouting out numbers without really understanding anything.

Have a good day.
 

F-15 Eagle

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OK, I can see where this is going...

It is quite obvious that I am talking to someone who is just shouting out numbers without really understanding anything.

Have a good day.
You just completely ignored my question. I just wanted to know if you had any sources. And I'm not just saying random numbers or blank facts, I'm saying what I have read and heard before. Since you don't have any sources I guess that means your also shouting out random numbers as well.
 
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kotay

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Whats your sources? Do you have any sources about the IAR having 100 round mags?

They already have M4s for room clearing. Whats next, make a shorter sniper rifle for room clearing.:rolleyes:
Request for Tender Document ... I understand it's not cast in stone yet but ... quote:

Magazine.
The IAR shall utilize a magazine with a capacity of 100 rounds (Threshold).
The magazine shall permit rapid visual determination of the number of rounds remaining (Objective).

Magazine Compatibility.
The IAR shall accept and function with the current Marine Corps service rifle (the M16A4) 30 round magazines
In brief, the USMC, is looking for something that ...

* Weighs no more than 12.5 pounds empty
* Has MIL-STD-1913 rail interface
* Min. 36rpm sustained rate of fire -- 75rpm desired
* Feed from a detachable 100 round magazine
* Accepts standard M16 magazines
* Capable of both semi and full auto fire (select fire)
* Has folding collapsible stock
* Has magazine with visible round count
* Can be operated by an individual Marine

SO ... are we going to discuss if the USMC is smart/dumb to seek such a weapon for it's squad mix. Or are we going to discuss which weapon fits the bill best?
 

sgtgunn

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Because if you replace the 200 round SAW with a 100 round IAR that is a down-grade in capability. You have half the volume of fire and you will have to reload twice as often. I also thought I'd throw out the fact that belts are much more reliable then drums. Drums tend to jam way to much. There is a reason why the U.S. Military went for the 200 round belt feed SAW.
The 200 round box for the M249 was actually one of it's greatest flaws.

The belt tends to rattle in the box (especially once you've fire the weapon, and you have less than a full belt inside) making noise discipline a problem. A field expedient solution has been to open the box and stuff pieces of carboard along side the belt, which helps but is hardly an ideal solution.

The spring loaded plastic tab on the box that attaches to the M249 is weak. Boxes have a annoying tendency to become detached at the least opportune moments. They are easily snagged when moving through heavy vegetation or crawling on the ground. Anyone who as carried a M249 for any length of time in the field has learn to dread the sound of the belt zipping out of the box as it falls to the ground or gets hung up on something. Putting the belt back in (correctly so with will feed back out smoothly) is, not suprinsingly, a pain in the ass.

Carrying the 200 round boxes can be a pain as well. Originally, the were left in the cloth "bandoliers" that they are shipped in and slung across the body. These of course bang around, rattle, and generally get in the way. Later the Army began to field saw box pouches for the LCE and later LBV which helped, but again the boxes still rattled in thier pouches, and having two full saw box pouches attached to the front of your LCE/LBV was hardly comfortable.

The US Army has come up with an excellent solution to these issues, a 100 round, soft cloth belt "bag" refered to (if you'll excuse my vulgarity) as a "ball bag" or "nut sack". Being made of nylon cloth, it is silent, it has a zipper on the bottom for ease of access, and a metal clip for more secure mounting on the weapon. They have been in use for several years, and are very popular. Odds are, if you see a photo of a US Soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan with an M249 it will have the 100 round soft pouch on it. The 200 round boxes are more commonly used when the M249 is mounted on a vehicle, or employed in a static, defensive role, such as in a tower or at a check point.

So I think the argument that the 100 round drum is "a down-grade" is really a moot point. 100 belts are the most common load out for the M249 these days anyways.

I'm not really sure of the value of an IAR per the USMC requirement. I'd be interested to see how they would integrate the weapon into thier infantry squad TO&E. As a 1 for 1 replacement for the M249, I think it would be a mistake. An IAR with a fixed barrel simply lacks the kind of sustained fire capability of a SAW for suppressive fires. If the IAR would be an addition to, rather than a replacement of the M249 - to provide the squad with added fire power in circumstances where using an M249 is less desireable, such as CQB, then I could see the utility of the weapon - though I'm not sure it justifies the expense of adding another weapon system to the inventory.

I'd like to see the M249 replaced with the lighter MK 46 Mod 1 - similar capabilities, less weight.

FYI - I've been in the Army & Army NG for 14 years, primarily as an infantryman, and have used the M249 extensively in many different enviornments. Overall good system - and IMHO most of its flaws are remedied by the MK 46.

Adrian
 

sgtgunn

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Oh, one difference bewteen the Army and USMC regarding the M249 - the USMC regards the M249 as a crew served weapon, while the US Army treats it as an individual weapon. While the M249 can be mounted on a tripod with a traversing and elevating mechanism, I have never seen this done in the Army, whereas I understand that the USMC use M249 tripods (though how frequently, I'm not sure). This doctrinal difference may be why the USMC sees a need for an IAR, where (as far as I know) the Army does not.

Adrian
 

buglerbilly

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A short/lightweight LMG is what the USMC is talking about and Knight Armaments are one company who appear to be going down that path along with Herstal Inc..............KAC call it the Stoner LMG which may be a bit of arrogance on their part...........they must have got permission to do so..........it sure looks the business. NOT in service yet but...........;)

http://www.knightarmco.com/lmg.html
 

lobbie111

New Member
A short/lightweight LMG is what the USMC is talking about and Knight Armaments are one company who appear to be going down that path along with Herstal Inc..............KAC call it the Stoner LMG which may be a bit of arrogance on their part...........they must have got permission to do so..........it sure looks the business. NOT in service yet but...........;)

http://www.knightarmco.com/lmg.html
Looks great to me but can someone tell me why there are not side mounted boxes? so as to free up the bottom for placing it flush with cover? Can this accept M16 magazines although I wonder why one would need the capability to do that considering that the other members of the team who always use their M16s and are used to firing accurate bursts would give up their precious magazine to their spray and pray partners in crime?

Well another thing I have noticed which I hope no-one will take as an insult is that Americans tend to shoot like they are surrounded on all sides and keep shooting until nothing shoots back. example Vietnam American snipers have a kill ratio of 6500 rounds to one kill or something ridiculous and Australians had two kills to three shots don't quote me on this it came up in general conversation not a source.
 

merocaine

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Well another thing I have noticed which I hope no-one will take as an insult is that Americans tend to shoot like they are surrounded on all sides and keep shooting until nothing shoots back. example Vietnam American snipers have a kill ratio of 6500 rounds to one kill or something ridiculous and Australians had two kills to three shots don't quote me on this it came up in general conversation not a source.
You got that backwards, american snipers had a kill rate of 1/2 rounds per badybag.
The grunts had a 5000 rounds per body bag average.
At the end of the day in a combat situation most of the killing is done with crew seviced weapons, tanks, arti, HMG, air support, in vietnam all those bullets were used to pin the enemy down while a fire mission was called in. Not because the grunts were blazing away. Added to that the number of engagements that took place at night lended to the high ammo expenditure, for obvious reasons.

Money played a part also, the US army in vietnam was'ent short of cash, ammo was cheap, there was'ent the same bullet counting that went on in other armies that perhaps did'ent have the same financial latitude the americans did.

Other than your one example (wrong) what do you base your observations on?
 

lobbie111

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Well, the Australian RAR used semi auto (or self loading) rifles and lost less men in direct combat than americans and only used machine guns to pin down the enemy now can you say that the Americans had to use their entire amount of ammo to pin the enemy down, maybe this is a tactics issue not one of the american soldiers themselves, my apologies.

Plus Americans were said to have attracted the enemy because they liked to smell pretty...
 

merocaine

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I sense a little bit of "our boys are better than there boys" in your post.

The americans were conscipts for the most part, were the Aussie's professionals?
Perhaps this could explain why the Aussie's proformed better.

There defiantly are doctrinal difference between the Americans and other western countries. Mostly as a result of the Americans wealth of resources.

Plus Americans were said to have attracted the enemy because they liked to smell pretty...
Ah do I detect strain of Aussie chauvinism.

Yes the VC could track an American over about 20 miles by the scent of his cologne.... Actually this was how most engagements occured, rather than intelligence and staff work, as might be assumed.
In Alfred J poofrock's monumental study "Scent and Warfare" the US's use of Cologne was sighted as one of the most important factors in the eventually American defeat.
The US did try to to close the "scent gap" with the use of full blooded native american trackers who detected their enemies by the distinctive aroma of Nam yum sauce, but alas this was to little to late.
A fascinating subject to be sure.
 

Chino

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....example Vietnam American snipers have a kill ratio of 6500 rounds to one kill or something ridiculous and Australians had two kills to three shots don't quote me on this it came up in general conversation not a source.
I read a couple of books of Aussies in Vietnam and they, too, emphasise firepower. They too, had to pour great volumes of fire at an enemy they couldn't see due to low light and vegetation etc. The author mentioned that firepower volume was itself a determining factor in firefights.

You can't see the enemy - but the enemy also can't see you.

So if you can pour out great volume of fire, the enemy might think they are facing great odds and retreat or take less aggressive initiatives.

The best illustration of this doctrine is the illegal but rather popular trick of wedging a bit of matchstick in the sear of the SLR and turning it into a full-auto weapon.
 

SuperSLime

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Money played a part also, the US army in vietnam was'ent short of cash, ammo was cheap, there was'ent the same bullet counting that went on in other armies that perhaps did'ent have the same financial latitude the americans did.
That's very bad reasoning. The problem isn't how much the ammunition costs; the problem is that it has to be carried at every step of the logistics chain, from the factory in the US to someone's ammo pouches on patrol.
 

SuperSLime

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what i meant was reloading the weapon, not the drum or belt per se.
I can reload a drum fed weapon (say U100 saw) on the run with no problem, reloading a a belt fed is another matter.
Why would you want to reload a support weapon on the run?

MGs are meant to be set up and fired; using them on the run is a waste of ammunition and a waste of the weapon's potential.
 

SuperSLime

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Have you ever tried clearing rooms with 7kg M249?
Er, why would you WANT to? The Minimi is a support weapon; it should be set up outside to suppress enemy fire positions, block retreat or reinforcement etc. Room clearing is done with personal weapons and grenades; to use a fully-automatic weapon capable of shooting through walls which your mates might be hiding behind is utter madness.
 

SuperSLime

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It is quite obvious that I am talking to someone who is just shouting out numbers without really understanding anything.
No, he has a point. What is the IAR FOR??

It's not a support weapon; it's magazine fed, too light and has a fixed barrel.

It's not a personal weapon; it's too heavy and would basically just be an awkward, large-magazined rifle.

I can't see any need for it. You don't need anything larger than a rifle and a bag of grenades for CQB, and anything smaller than a Minimi or HK MG4 is useless as a support weapon. The IAR sounds to me like a self-licking lollipop.
 

merocaine

New Member
That's very bad reasoning. The problem isn't how much the ammunition costs; the problem is that it has to be carried at every step of the logistics chain, from the factory in the US to someone's ammo pouches on patrol.
And their logistical chain was better any at that time or since, if they had short comings it was'ent in logistics. In Vietnam they could put more rounds on target because they knew resupply was only a chopper away.
Unless they were involved in a platoon action which involved patrolling a long way without the benift of resupply then they didn't have to conserve ammo, there was never any question of supplies being short.

The French a decade earlier did'ent have that luxury, although doctrinally not to different. The difference is a matter of cash in the most part, if they had the logistical supply chain (and airforce) that would have allowed them to bring more bullets to the party, then they surely would have.
 

SuperSLime

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And their logistical chain was better any at that time or since, if they had short comings it was'ent in logistics. In Vietnam they could put more rounds on target because they knew resupply was only a chopper away.
The problem was, they DIDN'T put more rounds on target; they put the same number of rounds on target and countless thousands of rounds into trees.

If I had a soldier who needed 5,000 rounds to hit one target I'd shoot the bastard myself and save the enemy the trouble.
 
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