Questions about Submarine abilities

[StevoJH]

Highlight the multirole capabilities of the platform, i.e. 4 plus ships each able to deploy a squadron of helos (of various types) to a disaster zone.....mother ship for anti piracy operations......an effective command and control platform able to deploy and support Special Forces....

Works for me, but the government would probably just point at Canberra and Adelaide and say something along the lines of "but we just bought you two big new C&C ships for supporting special forces and disaster relief.

Any idea how much Hyuga cost the JMSDF? Lets say a squadron of 12 Helicopters per ship even if some are in maintenance...

How many could we purchase with the NBN money?

 

[Volkodav]

Works for me, but the government would probably just point at Canberra and Adelaide and say something along the lines of "but we just bought you two big new C&C ships for supporting special forces and disaster relief.

Any idea how much Hyuga cost the JMSDF? Lets say a squadron of 12 Helicopters per ship even if some are in maintenance...

How many could we purchase with the NBN money?

Unfortunately the finance structure for the NBN likely wouldn't translate too well into an FMS contract, too little government money, too much private money, over too long a period.

Also living in a zone that doesn't have access to ADSL 2+ and dubious wireless access I am sort of looking forward to getting some improvement in my download speeds......

 

[Transient]

there's more than enough evidence available to show that a decent driver will be more than able to handle one helo. one of the lessons learnt now being lazarused is that all the skills for ASW honed during the cold war are still relevant today - despite improvements in electronics. one helo dropping sonarbuoys is going to run out of said sonarbuoys fairly quickly trying to get the pattern tight.

The USN recently seemed to think that the FLASH sonar was so good, they could reduce the number of sonobouys carried on board or even eliminate them altogether on the Romeos. I thought it crazy.

 

[SASWanabe]

Personally, I very much like the idea of a modern helicopter only version of the Invincible class like the Hyuga.

so, just buy the designs to Ocean off the Brits?

i personaly think a modern version of Jeanne d'Arc would suit perfectly for what you guys are talking about, you could stretch her out to 200m and add a couple VLS, might not even need to stretch it out, seems like there is space up front

 

[StevoJH]

so, just buy the designs to Ocean off the Brits?

No, not fast enough and would need to be equiped with VLS and possibly a gun or two. may as well start from scratch.

i personaly think a modern version of Jeanne d'Arc would suit perfectly for what you guys are talking about, you could stretch her out to 200m and add a couple VLS, might not even need to stretch it out, seems like there is space up front

A design like Jean d'Arc or the similar Italian ship would be ideal. You'd still have to design her from scratch though. The European ASW cruisers all date from just post WW2. Which is probably why they made such good training ships later in their lives.

 

[SASWanabe]

No, not fast enough and would need to be equiped with VLS and possibly a gun or two. may as well start from scratch.

i was just trying to point out that Ocean is a modified version of the Invincibles suited to helicopter operations.

is the italian ship your reffering to the Vittorio Veneto or one of the Andrea Doria class?

 

[StevoJH]

i was just trying to point out that Ocean is a modified version of the Invincibles suited to helicopter operations.

Not quite the same thing. I'm basically talking about a modernised version of the original Invincible class upon entry to service. Hyuga is probably the best modern example.

is the italian ship your reffering to the Vittorio Veneto or one of the Andrea Doria class?

I was thinking about VV.

 

[SASWanabe]

dont think we could sell something like a Hyuga to the pollys, theyll just say we already have 2 bigger ones.

something along the lines of jeanne d'Arc would be a hard sell but more probable. but what would these be replacing exactly?

 

[StevoJH]

dont think we could sell something like a Hyuga to the pollys, theyll just say we already have 2 bigger ones.

Would have to point out the ships have very different primary roles.

something along the lines of jeanne d'Arc would be a hard sell but more probable. but what would these be replacing exactly?

ANZAC's.

 

[Volkodav]

dont think we could sell something like a Hyuga to the pollys, theyll just say we already have 2 bigger ones.

something along the lines of jeanne d'Arc would be a hard sell but more probable. but what would these be replacing exactly?

Steel is cheap and air is free and Vittorio Veneto was not really that much larger than what we are planning to replace our ANZACs with. Perhaps go for something of a hybrid helo carrier, cruiser and Absalon type support ship. It may even be possible to work in a dock or ramp in the stern large enough for a single LCM, LCU or a couple of CB-90s (or similar).

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Gentlemen---I would like to ask the knowledgeable people---if there were any submarines in the area of the earthquake off japan and a sunami was created----how would it effect the submarine----.

The sunami moved from japan towards the u s shores thousands of miles at around 500 miles plus per hour----as it is submerged----and there are subs operating in this area possibly----what would have happened!!!

 

[gf0012-aust]

Hi,

Gentlemen---I would like to ask the knowledgeable people---if there were any submarines in the area of the earthquake off japan and a sunami was created----how would it effect the submarine----.

The sunami moved from japan towards the u s shores thousands of miles at around 500 miles plus per hour----as it is submerged----and there are subs operating in this area possibly----what would have happened!!!

3 submarines were caught in the Indon Tsunami of 2004

2 subs were alleged to have suffered damage and internal disruption. They had no idea that a Tsunami event was evolving until it hit. The third sub had sensors on board, detected the beginnings of the tsunami and warned others ahead of it happening.

all 3 subs were impacted by ocean movements. one was not affected at all. all 3 were in close proximity so were subject to the same events.

 

[NICO]

If I recall correctly, when Indo Tsunami hit, some people were scuba diving, scared them really bad but they managed to get out of the water. I am pretty sure a sub should manage. I guess it depends in how deep of water the sub is and the location of the bottom. Closer to shore/shallow water would be bad compared to a sub in deep water/far from shore. my 2 cents.

 

[t68]

so, just buy the designs to Ocean off the Brits?

i personaly think a modern version of Jeanne d'Arc would suit perfectly for what you guys are talking about, you could stretch her out to 200m and add a couple VLS, might not even need to stretch it out, seems like there is space up front

A class of 3 evolved multi role helicopter Destroyer Escort, similar to a Russian Moskva class helicopter cruiser would be beneficial to the RAN and complementary asset to the Hobart class AWD, it would have a smaller load out compared to an AWD, and it could use the current combat system on a ANZAC class frigate or use the evolved system with the future frigate build. A stern elevator to transfer helicopter capable of holding a max of 8 helicopters in the below deck for storage and maintenance.

I believe in keeping with the multi role asset which will benefit the RAN, a helicopter cruiser working as a complementary asset with an AWD, which could conduct escort duties for the Canberra Class it can provide if needed near continues ASW duties and also ASuW, it will be able to self deploy into most environments as part of a coalition or as mini task force of 1 ANZAC, 1 HDE (helicopter destroyer escort) and a Bay class sealift ship (or similar)
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskva_class_helicopter_carrier"]Moskva class helicopter carrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/FileoD-Leningrad-DN-ST-90-07636_50pct.jpg" class="image" title="Leningrad underway in 1990."><img alt="Leningrad underway in 1990." src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/DoD-Leningrad-DN-ST-90-07636_50pct.jpg/300px-DoD-Leningrad-DN-ST-90-07636_50pct.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/0/0b/DoD-Leningrad-DN-ST-90-07636_50pct.jpg/300px-DoD-Leningrad-DN-ST-90-07636_50pct.jpg[/ame]

 

[stormrider]

I'm pretty sure an RN nuke acted as a kind of early warning system in regards to Argentine aircraft in the Falklands War.

I could have imagined that though.

Not only against Argentina, against, North Korea, Vietnam and USSR during the Cold War. The main submarine ability is its inherent Stealth. It is not meant to launch planes or defensive missiles, cause if it had to, then it would be already too late.

During the Cold War, attack submarines engaged in missions called Northern Runs: espionage missions, deep inside the Soviet 12 miles line. There, a crew of "spooks" monitored soviet emissions, frequencies and communications for intelligence purposes.

Submarines are also the best platform against other submarines, they can dive deep and search for SSBNs patrolling underneath sound layers, which reflect the sound and create a barrier. A ship lurking above cant hear a sub wandering underneath it. But at the same time a sub can change depth which is a great tactical advantage.

Submarines can carry ballistic missiles, which are a stealth deterrent. 1 SSBN can carry normally 16 SLBMs with multiple MIRVS. That means that after the first ICBM strike, even a single SSBN can still reassure the enemies complete destruction. Its the MAD strategy. (Mutual Destruction).

Submarines can launch ASM and Cruise Missiles. They can make a surprise attack and cripple a vulnerable ship in a Task Force, one that could be for example responsible for AAW and open the door for subsequent attacks. Submarines can surprise attack land targets like EW radar stations for example, for the same purposes.

Submarines are a matter of concern to any commander just for been in the area. Its mere presence require the enemy to divert additional dedicated resources to it.

 

[EXSSBN2005]

Submarines are a matter of concern to any commander just for been in the area. Its mere presence require the enemy to divert additional dedicated resources to it.

We dont even have to be in the area, just not being tied up in port is enough to cause this diversion of resources. Mere existance is enough to warrent taking precautionary action. At powerschool they had a picture of the ocean with the caption of submarine on patrol, some people who didn't get it stared for hours looking for a esm scope or something and never realized it was just the open ocean, death from the deep. Northern runs were not just a cold war mission, thats all that needs to be said or infered about that.

 

[PCShogun]

I have another question, again it might be stupid because I know nothing about warship.

Do submarines engage each other like fighter (BVR) Do submarine just get a lock on another submarine and fire the torpedo and forget.

Submarine combat can take place over many minutes or hours, not seconds like a fighter aircraft.

Typically, a sub will get a contact on passive sonar. Once identified as something that needs to die, a torpedo or two will be launched. It is usually on a slow speed to reduce the chance of counter detection. The weapon is guided by wire and does not yet have active sonar engaged, the weapons operator guides it based on the submarines sonar set.

Once it appears the target has detected the torpedo, usually by rapidly increasing speed and a turn, the torpedo is switched to high speed. It may still be wire guided at this point and the operator may activate the torpedo sonar or not. He can guide the torpedo to the target or eventually cut the wire and allow the torpedo to become autonomous, a fully automatic weapon. At this point the torpedo WILL have an active sonar and will home onto the target it sees. If it looses the target, it will circle in a prearranged direction to try and reaquire the target. It will do this until it runs out of fuel or hits something.

This is why remaining undetected is so important. It is very difficult to avoid a torpedo with an operator on the end of the wire. You have manuevers that can put a false echo into the water (Called a "knuckle"), you can launch decoys, you can drop below or above thermal layers to try and confuse sonar, you can fire a torpedo back along the incoming torpedos track to try and scare the shooter into cutting the wire and evading your shot. However, if he can hear you, he can shoot you. Once detected, you are at the disadvantage because once you start moving quickly, your sonar is degraded and he can hear you even better and so can his torpedo.

Helicopters and aircraft cannot guide their torpedos. The danger is that they can be right on top of you and you will not know until the torp is dropped into the water. helicopters and sub hunting aircraft typically will drop sonar bouys into your projected path to find you before launch, but a MAD (Magnetic anomaly) detector cannot be heard and the drop can come out of nowhere.

Now, having said all this, I need to point out that I am not a sub driver. I did, however, stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

[My2Cents]

Typically, a sub will get a contact on passive sonar. Once identified as something that needs to die, a torpedo or two will be launched. It is usually on a slow speed to reduce the chance of counter detection. The weapon is guided by wire and does not yet have active sonar engaged, the weapons operator guides it based on the submarines sonar set.

The operator can also use input from the sonar on the torpedo operating in passive mode. By combining input from 2 sources, and with the processing power of the sub behind it, spoofing the torpedo becomes much more difficult.

A wire guided torpedo is essentially a remotely guided underwater vehicle, which means as long as the operator is in control a direct path is not required. This means that the torpedo can circle out of the line between the launching sub and the target, so that when the torpedo is detected any shot fired back along its path is no threat to the firing submarine. The torpedo can also be directed to travel either above or below a thermal layer with the launching submarine and the target on the other side, it then pops through the layer close to the target giving them much less time to detect and respond to it. :type

 

[PCShogun]

The operator can also use input from the sonar on the torpedo operating in passive mode. By combining input from 2 sources, and with the processing power of the sub behind it, spoofing the torpedo becomes much more difficult.

A wire guided torpedo is essentially a remotely guided underwater vehicle, which means as long as the operator is in control a direct path is not required. This means that the torpedo can circle out of the line between the launching sub and the target, so that when the torpedo is detected any shot fired back along its path is no threat to the firing submarine. The torpedo can also be directed to travel either above or below a thermal layer with the launching submarine and the target on the other side, it then pops through the layer close to the target giving them much less time to detect and respond to it. :type

Very true and I may have been guilty of trying to oversimplify tactics for the sake of brevity. ONE tactic is to fire down the incoming torpdedo's bearing in the hope that the opposing submarine will break the wire and take evasive action, thus increasing the odds of evading his shot, reducing his sonar ability, and increasing the chance of your sonar detecting him. As you point out, the torpedo does not need to come straight in, but can come in from varying angles to prevent such a shot from endangering the shooting submarine.

 

[Palnatoke]

Just a question, though: When a torpedo is fired and starts to travel through the water by it's own propulsion system, isn't that so noisy that any sub would detect it at large distance?