Power from space?

FutureTank

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
As for Star Fortress (and your propose IS Star Fortress) - well, we are struggling to build very small ISS. And you want something much bigger, and much more expensive... Economic nonsense.
Not an Orbital Fortress. It will be a large array, but due to its bulk, it will comfortably accommodate a range of countermeasures. It will have to have capability to move and even rotate to evade any damage from space objects, and destroy small objects such as stones, etc., so missiles will be a part of a larger and non-directed threats.
 

Chrom

New Member
Not an Orbital Fortress. It will be a large array, but due to its bulk, it will comfortably accommodate a range of countermeasures. It will have to have capability to move and even rotate to evade any damage from space objects, and destroy small objects such as stones, etc., so missiles will be a part of a larger and non-directed threats.
I cant see how you can possible destroy a set of stones flying 15 km/s in opposite direction. Any countermeasure will only amplify damage done, and not prevent it.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
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  • #23
I cant see how you can possible destroy a set of stones flying 15 km/s in opposite direction. Any countermeasure will only amplify damage done, and not prevent it.
You can't see it because the installation is so high in orbit, and the stones are so small ;-)

Seriously though, where there is a will, and lots of money involved, there is a way :)
 

Chrom

New Member
You can't see it because the installation is so high in orbit, and the stones are so small ;-)

Seriously though, where there is a will, and lots of money involved, there is a way :)
Eh, if everything would be as simple... man, A LOT of money cant buy a safe bet for CBG against simple 3 mach missile... in hundreds of thousands tonns hulls... now you want to convince me what somehow money will buy a protection from A LOT of small 50 mach stones in SPACE?

There is nothing absolute in the world, and power of money is also not absolute!

P.S. Give me idea how that protection can be done even theoretically. I cant imagine such protection on the current tech level.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Is there a reason for NASA to be afraid? Or NASA is just angsty?
The latter. NASA is currently launching another module (this week iirc?) on a Shuttle, then the two remaining modules will be added over the next year or two. Just 4-5 years late compared to original plans.
 

NathanS

New Member
A couple of points:

- Like GPS, I'd imagine it's built in an array. Take some out, that's okay - there's redundancy.

- Shooting satellites out of the sky is actually pretty hard. There are only a few countries in the world with this capability at the moment. You need to get an explosion very close to take out a satellite because of the vacuum of space. You don't get the 'shockwave' like on earth. You more or less need a direct hit, and space is very big. And you can forget about 'flaps' on missiles giving you pin-point directional control. China only recently proved this capability. Satellite positions are well hidden secrets anyway.

- It would not be the US military's only source of power. I'm sure they would have backup generators. They only need fuel reserves that will last long enough to obtain another power source - or more fuel.

- My biggest concern is wouldn't it be possible for the enemy to track where the US positions are, by detecting where the microwaves are being beamed? It'd more or less 'illuminate' their position, even with relatively primative equipment. Fine for US bases - not so good for front-line troops.
 

Chrom

New Member
A couple of points:

- Like GPS, I'd imagine it's built in an array. Take some out, that's okay - there's redundancy.
Valid remark. If there are 10 stations, taking all of them out would be difficult for anyone but most capable opponent.
- Shooting satellites out of the sky is actually pretty hard. There are only a few countries in the world with this capability at the moment. You need to get an explosion very close to take out a satellite because of the vacuum of space. You don't get the 'shockwave' like on earth. You more or less need a direct hit, and space is very big. And you can forget about 'flaps' on missiles giving you pin-point directional control. China only recently proved this capability. Satellite positions are well hidden secrets anyway.
Complely false in all points. You dont need any explosive device. A simple BULLET, traveling in opposite direction, will have kinetic energy equal to 100mm APFSDS. And will do as much damage. Now, in 1 kg payload you can cram 100 bullets... in 100kg payload - 10 thousands bullets....
Traveling at geo orbit is NOT ANY HARDER than traveling to any other orbit - you forget the simple fact what bullets dont need to stay at that orbit, they merery have to cross it. High elliptical orbit will do it.

Also, you cant keep satellite location secret. There are things called "radars" and "LRF's". Even 3rd-world country have enouth knowledge and technical means to exactly locate such big object...

- It would not be the US military's only source of power. I'm sure they would have backup generators. They only need fuel reserves that will last long enough to obtain another power source - or more fuel.

- My biggest concern is wouldn't it be possible for the enemy to track where the US positions are, by detecting where the microwaves are being beamed? It'd more or less 'illuminate' their position, even with relatively primative equipment. Fine for US bases - not so good for front-line troops.
All in all, viable idea BUT we need to reach much higher technical and scientifical level to make it work. Then again, at such level we might obtain 1000 times better accus to store energy, or other means to fuel military vessels - so these space stations would be useless.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #28
Valid remark. If there are 10 stations, taking all of them out would be difficult for anyone but most capable opponent.
Complely false in all points. You dont need any explosive device. A simple BULLET, traveling in opposite direction, will have kinetic energy equal to 100mm APFSDS. And will do as much damage. Now, in 1 kg payload you can cram 100 bullets... in 100kg payload - 10 thousands bullets....
Traveling at geo orbit is NOT ANY HARDER than traveling to any other orbit - you forget the simple fact what bullets dont need to stay at that orbit, they merery have to cross it. High elliptical orbit will do it.

Also, you cant keep satellite location secret. There are things called "radars" and "LRF's". Even 3rd-world country have enouth knowledge and technical means to exactly locate such big object...

All in all, viable idea BUT we need to reach much higher technical and scientifical level to make it work. Then again, at such level we might obtain 1000 times better accus to store energy, or other means to fuel military vessels - so these space stations would be useless.
Sand casters would stop bullets, or at least slow them down significantly.
The space equivalent of the Claymore would also do as a defensive measure.

Satellite targeting is not so simple, however it is not impossible either. The issue becomes one of engineering.

The transmission can be performed on the move, and in bursts, assuming a storage capacity on the collector satellite. The delivery need not be regular, and also can be delivered to mobile charger units, so hybrid electric military vehicles can recharge. However I think they would still retain a degree of independence from the charger stations.
 

Chrom

New Member
Sand casters would stop bullets, or at least slow them down significantly.
The space equivalent of the Claymore would also do as a defensive measure.

Satellite targeting is not so simple, however it is not impossible either. The issue becomes one of engineering.

The transmission can be performed on the move, and in bursts, assuming a storage capacity on the collector satellite. The delivery need not be regular, and also can be delivered to mobile charger units, so hybrid electric military vehicles can recharge. However I think they would still retain a degree of independence from the charger stations.
Sand casters, unless notoriosly thick (remember Star Fortress?) will only apmlifiy damage due to added debris. Imagine how thick should be sandcasters to stop 100mm APFSDS... And now keep in mind, the energy is focused in much smaller cross-section, so even better penetration...

As i said, theoreticaly valid idea what about as feasible at current technological level as plasma guns and X-Fighters.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30
Sand casters, unless notoriosly thick (remember Star Fortress?) will only apmlifiy damage due to added debris. Imagine how thick should be sandcasters to stop 100mm APFSDS... And now keep in mind, the energy is focused in much smaller cross-section, so even better penetration...
But where are you going to get a 100mm APFSDS in space from? Is there a capability ion the BMP-3 we are not aware of? ;-)

"Faster than a speeding bullet! More powerful than a locomotive! Able to leap tall buildings at a single bound! "Look! Up in the sky!" "It's a bird!" "It's a plane!" "It's satellite-busting BMP-3!" :D

suggested countermeasure: depleted Kryptonite round ?
 

Chrom

New Member
But where are you going to get a 100mm APFSDS in space from? Is there a capability ion the BMP-3 we are not aware of? ;-)

"Faster than a speeding bullet! More powerful than a locomotive! Able to leap tall buildings at a single bound! "Look! Up in the sky!" "It's a bird!" "It's a plane!" "It's satellite-busting BMP-3!" :D

suggested countermeasure: depleted Kryptonite round ?
Did you even read what i wrote? A bullet traveling 15 km/s have about as much kinetic energy as 100mm APFSDS flying 1km/s , and will do about as much damage.
 

NathanS

New Member
Complely false in all points. You dont need any explosive device. A simple BULLET, traveling in opposite direction, will have kinetic energy equal to 100mm APFSDS. And will do as much damage. Now, in 1 kg payload you can cram 100 bullets... in 100kg payload - 10 thousands bullets....
Traveling at geo orbit is NOT ANY HARDER than traveling to any other orbit - you forget the simple fact what bullets dont need to stay at that orbit, they merery have to cross it. High elliptical orbit will do it.
Name one country that uses "bullets" to take out satellites? It would be near on impossible to get a bullet in exactly the right orbit at the right time to begin with. Even a geo-stationary orbit is a very large area of space. Why do you think so many countries seriously look at nuclear weapons to knock out satellites (as a result of the EMP blast)? Because they're really hard to hit. Notice that the only countries that have the means to take out satellites are those with advanced ballistic missile systems?

Notice when a space module is going to land back on earth, the landing area is an area of several thousand miles? Same principle... even having calculated it's trajectory it's difficult to calculate even the ballpark where it will land because the scales are that big. A small decimal point of imperfection leads to missing by hundreds of miles.

Also, you cant keep satellite location secret. There are things called "radars" and "LRF's". Even 3rd-world country have enouth knowledge and technical means to exactly locate such big object...
There are hundreds and hundreds of satellites in the sky for all sorts of purposes. Research, weather, communications, junk, military. You can't just knock them all out. Mind you you could just see which one is emitting the beaming the microwaves.
 

Chrom

New Member
Name one country that uses "bullets" to take out satellites? It would be near on impossible to get a bullet in exactly the right orbit at the right time to begin with. Even a geo-stationary orbit is a very large area of space. Why do you think so many countries seriously look at nuclear weapons to knock out satellites (as a result of the EMP blast)? Because they're really hard to hit. Notice that the only countries that have the means to take out satellites are those with advanced ballistic missile systems?

Notice when a space module is going to land back on earth, the landing area is an area of several thousand miles? Same principle... even having calculated it's trajectory it's difficult to calculate even the ballpark where it will land because the scales are that big. A small decimal point of imperfection leads to missing by hundreds of miles.



There are hundreds and hundreds of satellites in the sky for all sorts of purposes. Research, weather, communications, junk, military. You can't just knock them all out. Mind you you could just see which one is emitting the beaming the microwaves.
Most anti-satellite plans i know of include so-called "bucket with nails" as main killing factor. Either way, it is much, much, much easer to hit space object with several nails from the bucket than guide missile with explosives to exact right spot... And anyway, what is purpose of explosives? Is it not to accelerate nails toward target? But in satellite case the speed of nails already order of magnitude higher than any speed they can gain from explosion...

In landing case unpredicable atmosthere take a toll. In space there is nothing unpredicable, and warhead could be aimed VERY accurate. Btw, controlled landing from space achieve very good results - e.g. space shuttle landed on airfield last i checked, and russian space modules land in 1 km2 area in normal case - but if really needed, they could be modified to land in 1 m2...

As for "many satellites"... First, they will be damaged exactly as much in case of simple explosive missille hitting said station due to debris. Second, i think it is acceptable toll to render your enemy army useless.
 

NathanS

New Member
Yeah, I don't deny that it's kinetic damage that's usually applied from metal fragments. But it's a ballistic missile that has to deliver the payload, and there are very few countries capable of launching long range ballistic missiles with the range and accuracy required. It's far from an 'easy' exercise.

On current estimates, China has around 150 ballistic missiles in their stockpile. Plenty to wipe out a country in a nuclear strike, but not enough to take out every satellite in orbit.

I doubt a middle-eastern nation, or North Korea has the technology to shoot down satellites - and currently they're painted as the biggest US threats.
 

Chrom

New Member
Yeah, I don't deny that it's kinetic damage that's usually applied from metal fragments. But it's a ballistic missile that has to deliver the payload, and there are very few countries capable of launching long range ballistic missiles with the range and accuracy required. It's far from an 'easy' exercise.

On current estimates, China has around 150 ballistic missiles in their stockpile. Plenty to wipe out a country in a nuclear strike, but not enough to take out every satellite in orbit.

I doubt a middle-eastern nation, or North Korea has the technology to shoot down satellites - and currently they're painted as the biggest US threats.
Yes, but 1st - we are talking about future. More countries will posses capable ballistic missiles. It is even possible they would be sold on open commercial market like aircrafts now.
2nd, shaping your army against very low-tech weak opponent is not good idea. Against such enemy every solution will do well, and there is no need to deploy multi-trillion dollars platforms in space.
 

NathanS

New Member
Yes, but 1st - we are talking about future. More countries will posses capable ballistic missiles. It is even possible they would be sold on open commercial market like aircrafts now.
2nd, shaping your army against very low-tech weak opponent is not good idea. Against such enemy every solution will do well, and there is no need to deploy multi-trillion dollars platforms in space.
Hardly shaping against a low-tech opponent. For example; spy satellites. The Russians have had the ability to shoot them down since the 60's. Yet you'd hardly dream of reverting to solely spy planes now, unless you had to. Almost everything has a counter - that's why you build redundancy, and secondly, have a back-up plan. I can't see why this is so different.

Also, the reason it's being considered now is that the technology is pretty much here. It's no more difficult then it was to develop then a lot of military / space technology initially was. And now there is GPS, Spy Satellites, and Military communications satellites. It's not like large solar arrays in space is anything new either.
 

Chrom

New Member
Hardly shaping against a low-tech opponent. For example; spy satellites. The Russians have had the ability to shoot them down since the 60's. Yet you'd hardly dream of reverting to solely spy planes now, unless you had to. Almost everything has a counter - that's why you build redundancy, and secondly, have a back-up plan. I can't see why this is so different.

Also, the reason it's being considered now is that the technology is pretty much here. It's no more difficult then it was to develop then a lot of military / space technology initially was. And now there is GPS, Spy Satellites, and Military communications satellites. It's not like large solar arrays in space is anything new either.
The difference is like between 18th century rockets and 21th century ballistic missile. While they use basically some laws, there are 3 hundreds years of technical development between. Some case with this "power from space" - there are so many unsolvable (on current technical level) obstacles - what it is pure fantasy. Cold thermonuclear reactors are probably more real than this...
 

NathanS

New Member
From all accounts, it is far less outlandish then other things being seriously worked on at the moment, such as the space elevator.

And unlike the space elevator, the technology is here, just not the economies of scale.
 

Chrom

New Member
From all accounts, it is far less outlandish then other things being seriously worked on at the moment, such as the space elevator.

And unlike the space elevator, the technology is here, just not the economies of scale.
Technology is not there in the sence what it will be 1000 times more effective to power devices with other means. Sure, even now we can spend 300 billions $$ and launch such space station in space what will be able to power may be 2-3 tanks, with devices to recive power being larger than tank itself... Are you really sure this is what you call "technology is there" ?
 

NathanS

New Member
Technology is not there in the sence what it will be 1000 times more effective to power devices with other means. Sure, even now we can spend 300 billions $$ and launch such space station in space what will be able to power may be 2-3 tanks, with devices to recive power being larger than tank itself... Are you really sure this is what you call "technology is there" ?
Hmmm.... from the Pentagon report, the power they're asking for is only 5-50 megawatts as being enough to be worthwhile. Most previous studies were looking at commercial power generation, and were looking at systems up to 1 km big that would generate up to 50 gigawatts (1000 times more then needed). Proponents of the scheme point out that it's more promising then fusion technology currently is (has costed over 20 billion in research so far).
 
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