New Zealand awards contract for $500 Million Dollar Project "Protector".

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Aussie Digger

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Sea Toby said:
At least New Zealand didn't waste $400 million in cost overuns on two 20 year old ships, now 25 year old ships, as the Australians did to get approximately the same capability as the New Zealand MPV. Furthermore the Australian Newport LPAs don't have a larger gun than the MPV either.

The New Zealand OPVs, think of them as extended range IPVs, they have a similar armament as the Australian Armidales' IPVs. At least the New Zealand's OPVs have a range of 6,000 nautical miles, double the range of the Armidale IPVs. The OPVs carry a helicopter and they are ice strengthened too. Why can Australia build undergunned naval ships and New Zealand can't?

Do you really need a larger gun to overwhelm illegal fishing vessels or to straf a beach?
There were cost overruns on that project only because the RAN staff didn't do their jobs properly and chose the wrong ships (the ships were terribly corroded). Since that's been rectified they have performed absolutely sterling service for the RAN.

As to their armament, they don't have a bigger gun than the MRV, true, but they do mount a Phalanx CIWS and 4x 0.50cal HMG's, which are soon to be upgraded with the "mini-typhoon" targetting system, as opposed to a single 25mm EO/IR guided only cannon, with little to no anti-air capability and 4x un-guided 0.50cal HMG's.

As to their capability, well the ability to lift 450 troops, as opposed to 100, is a significant capability boost wouldn't you say? Other capabilities are similar, (capability to operate 4 TTH helo's, 2x LCM style landing craft), extensive "vehicle lanes" for armoured vehicles, support vehicles/equipment and high level hospital and C4I capabilities, however the LPA's can carry M1A1 tanks, and have greater vehicle lane capacity (from all reports)...
 

Sea Toby

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New Zealand's MPV moves 250 troops along with their equipment and supplies for a month, this from the N.Z. MoD, the N.Z. Navy, and the Tenix websites, not one hundred. 403 lane meters of vehicle space in the MPV, plus 33 containers. How that matches up with the LPA's 2,000 tons on 1,765 meters square of deck space is beyond my calculation. Both ships carry two LCM-8s. The LPA carries one 70 ton crane, the MPV carries two 60 ton cranes. Future plans call for further conversion of the LPA with an elevator to permit stowing helicopters on the vehicle deck, and side vehicle loading doors. The MPV will have both of these items already when commissioned. The LPA does have a command and control communications center, the MPV will have N.Z. military communications.

The Newport has three helicopter landing spots, the MPV has two helicopter landing spots. The Newport can carry 4 Blackhawks or 3 Sea Kings, the MPV an carry 4 NH-90s plus one SeaSprite. Frankly I don't see much differences between the two ships, they are of equal size except the LPA carries more troops probably in lesser quality accomodations than the MPV.

I would suppose the MPV would borrow a CIWS from one of the Anzac frigates which isn't escorting it into unfriendly skies near the Asian mainland or in Indonesian waters. I was under the impression that the Australians did the same with their limited number of CIWS.

I read this at the ADI website that is supplying the gun mount:
ADI will fit the MSI DS25M gun system to three of the seven vessels now under construction by Australian shipbuilder Tenix for New Zealand's Protector program. The gun is the US-made 25 mmm Bushmaster cannon as used in Australian and New Zealand light armoured vehicles. It's fitted to a deck mount designed by MSI-Defence Systems, UK and can be operated by remote control from inside the vessel.

The key words are remote control. That implies a computer operator will operate the gun. There will also be 2 50 calibre 12.7 mm machine guns on the MPV too.

For the price of US$120 million, or NZ$250 million, New Zealand in my humble opinion will receive a good brand new ship, whereas Australia squandered A$400 million cost overruns on ageing ships. I won't quarrel whether Australia spent much more on electronic countermeasures, Nulka chaff and decoys, I'm sure LPA is better equipped for warfare. Without the cost overruns, Australia did well modernizing two Newport class LSTs for a reasonable price. But these cost overruns are high in anyone's book. The A$400 million alone would have purchased a brand new Dutch Enforcer of 15-16,000 tons displacement, probably with twice the capacity of one LPA.
 
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Aussie Digger

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Sea Toby said:
New Zealand's MPV moves 250 troops along with their equipment and supplies for a month, this from the N.Z. MoD, the N.Z. Navy, and the Tenix websites, not one hundred. 403 lane meters of vehicle space in the MPV, plus 33 containers. How that matches up with the LPA's 2,000 tons on 1,765 meters square of deck space is beyond my calculation. Both ships carry two LCM-8s. The LPA carries one 70 ton crane, the MPV carries two 60 ton cranes. Future plans call for further conversion of the LPA with an elevator to permit stowing helicopters on the vehicle deck, and side vehicle loading doors. The MPV will have both of these items already when commissioned. The LPA does have a command and control communications center, the MPV will have N.Z. military communications.

The Newport has three helicopter landing spots, the MPV has two helicopter landing spots. The Newport can carry 4 Blackhawks or 3 Sea Kings, the MPV an carry 4 NH-90s plus one SeaSprite. Frankly I don't see much differences between the two ships, they are of equal size except the LPA carries more troops probably in lesser quality accomodations than the MPV.

I would suppose the MPV would borrow a CIWS from one of the Anzac frigates which isn't escorting it into unfriendly skies near the Asian mainland or in Indonesian waters. I was under the impression that the Australians did the same with their limited number of CIWS.

I read this at the ADI website that is supplying the gun mount:
ADI will fit the MSI DS25M gun system to three of the seven vessels now under construction by Australian shipbuilder Tenix for New Zealand's Protector program. The gun is the US-made 25 mmm Bushmaster cannon as used in Australian and New Zealand light armoured vehicles. It's fitted to a deck mount designed by MSI-Defence Systems, UK and can be operated by remote control from inside the vessel.

The key words are remote control. That implies a computer operator will operate the gun. There will also be 2 50 calibre 12.7 mm machine guns on the MPV too.

For the price of US$120 million, or NZ$250 million, New Zealand in my humble opinion will receive a good brand new ship, whereas Australia squandered A$400 million cost overruns on ageing ships. I won't quarrel whether Australia spent much more on electronic countermeasures, Nulka chaff and decoys, I'm sure LPA is better equipped for warfare. Without the cost overruns, Australia did well modernizing two Newport class LSTs for a reasonable price. But these cost overruns are high in anyone's book. The A$400 million alone would have purchased a brand new Dutch Enforcer of 15-16,000 tons displacement, probably with twice the capacity of one LPA.
HMAS Manoora and Kanimbla operate CIWS - Phalanx on a permanent basis, due to their "high value" nature. It was only the FFG's which rotated CIWS as necessary, thoughwe actually have enough to equip all the ships simultaneously if required (as I've seen a photo of the entire fleet with ALL of them equipped). For reasons unknown to me, the RAN isn't keen on deploying FFG's to sea with their CIWS fitted all the time.

Manoora and Kanimbla cost more than originally planned, however they gave the RAN their first real Amphibious capability, and have provided EXCELLENT service, since being commissioned. They are lightly armed, however an Army air defence unit equipped with RBS-70 is usually deployed with them to provide an upgraded Air defence/anti-surface capability for the ships. No doubt NZ could do this too, with their Mistral SAM's, however it would leave the NZ Army very short of air defence capability...

The living accomodation aboard the LPA's is supposedly very good.
 

Whiskyjack

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Aussie Digger said:
HMAS Manoora and Kanimbla operate CIWS - Phalanx on a permanent basis, due to their "high value" nature. It was only the FFG's which rotated CIWS as necessary, thoughwe actually have enough to equip all the ships simultaneously if required (as I've seen a photo of the entire fleet with ALL of them equipped). For reasons unknown to me, the RAN isn't keen on deploying FFG's to sea with their CIWS fitted all the time.

Manoora and Kanimbla cost more than originally planned, however they gave the RAN their first real Amphibious capability, and have provided EXCELLENT service, since being commissioned. They are lightly armed, however an Army air defence unit equipped with RBS-70 is usually deployed with them to provide an upgraded Air defence/anti-surface capability for the ships. No doubt NZ could do this too, with their Mistral SAM's, however it would leave the NZ Army very short of air defence capability...

The living accomodation aboard the LPA's is supposedly very good.
I think, despite initial difficulties, the LPAs have been very valuable for the ADF, they are also a learning curve, that has allowed the ADF to define it’s requirement and doctrine for the LPHs. I hope that the NZDF will find the MRV to be as valuable and make use of the ship to define a more amphibious battle group doctrine for the NZDF. It does not have to be opposed landings, but just making the most of what it has.
 

Sea Dog

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Aussie Digger said:
Manoora and Kanimbla cost more than originally planned, however they gave the RAN their first real Amphibious capability, and have provided EXCELLENT service, since being commissioned.
You forgot that HMAS TOBRUK, which came into RAN service way before the the old NEWPORT LST's, has also given excellent service, and has a pretty decent phib capability.:smokie
 
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Whiskyjack

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Sea Dog said:
You forgot that HMAS TOBRUK, which came into RAN service way before the the old NEWPORT LST's, has also given excellent service, and has a pretty decent phib capability.:smokie
Tobruk is more a logistics ship than an amphibious ship, but they are a good class, can carry a lot of men and equipment.
 

Sea Dog

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Whiskyjack said:
Tobruk is more a logistics ship than an amphibious ship, but they are a good class, can carry a lot of men and equipment.
....that fat thing can be beached!!:D
 

Whiskyjack

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Sea Dog said:
....that fat thing can be beached!!:D
Yeah, takes you back to another time, Normandy, Guadalcanal etc...

Not quite over the horizon 21st Century stuff tho.
 

Sea Dog

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Whiskyjack said:
Yeah, takes you back to another time, Normandy, Guadalcanal etc...

Not quite over the horizon 21st Century stuff tho.

The good thing about our doctrine "Forward....from the Sea is that I rather skulk over the horizon, far away from the incoming, sending SM4's & gun rounds (if we ever get anything with legs), and let the LCACs, AAAV's, and MV22's go hit the beach and secure everything before closing in to dump the rest of the jarheads junk.

:sniper
 

Lucasnz

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Sea Dog said:
....that fat thing can be beached!!:D
I understand from someone who did an exchange with the RAN on Torbruk, that they no longer beach, due the condition of the hull. Someone might be able to confirm that however.

I think NZ got the best deal out of the LPD vs MRV, even though the LPD has a greater lift capability. I would like to see the surplus CHAFF launchers from Canterbury or Wellington fitted, but that might happen after the warranty runs out anyway. From the internal plans I've seen of the MRV all cabins have on suites for the crew and cabins for ratings are 4 berth. The army has mass showering, so don't drop the soap. Ratings and Army (Used for breifings also) have separate messing and the army a seprate rec space.
 
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Aussie Digger

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Sea Dog said:
You forgot that HMAS TOBRUK, which came into RAN service way before the the old NEWPORT LST's, has also given excellent service, and has a pretty decent phib capability.:smokie
I didn't forget Tobruk. I rode on that POS many times, I'd never forget it. We used to call it Toobroken...

However in reality ADF Amphib capabilities only came of age when the LPA's came into service. Tobruk is more of a one way transport, rather than a "command ship" like the LPA's are.

It can carry a decent load of armoured vehicles, but it's troop transport capability is rubbish, (even though officially it can carry 300 normally and 520 for "short" periods) and it can only operate 2 helo's for short periods of time, not having hangars. Townsville to Shoalwater Bay (near Rockhampton) is as far as I ever travelled on it and as far as I ever would WISH to...

It is also basically unarmed with only 0.50cal HMG's carried, besides small arms for the crew...

On ops these days it's really only used to transport vehicles and kit. If any amphibious ops were conducted, it'd be the LPA's that would conduct them.
 

Sea Dog

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Lucasnz said:
The army has mass showering, so don't drop the soap. Ratings and Army (Used for breifings also) have separate messing and the army a seprate rec space.

....I guess this is done to keep the fumigation and delousing of the ship to a minimum, eh??
:p:
 

Sea Toby

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Pictures of MPV launch

Here are two public domain pictures of the launch of the new MPV in the Netherlands from the RNZN website:





And one of her the next day after her superstructure was installed:



While she was launched without a name or without a number, she now has a number. The government has chosen L421 as her number, the same 421 the Leander class frigate Canterbury wore.
 

Sea Dog

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Aussie Digger said:
Townsville to Shoalwater Bay (near Rockhampton) is as far as I ever travelled on it and as far as I ever would WISH to...

.
I'll give you this, that's a lot farther than you'll ever get me to travel on a flat-bottomed LST.

I once took a day ride in 1993 on an LST to observe the pre-decom INSURV inspection. We were just out of the Creek and hung around just outside the Roads all day. The seas weren't too bad, and my stomach can handle pretty rough stuff, but....that day I was barf boy. Thank God my buddy let me crash in his stateroom 'cause I was a miserable pup!

p.s. Lunch in the Wardroom that day was a Rueben Sandwich. I'VE NEVER TOUCHED A RUEBEN SINCE.:mad:
 

Sea Toby

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Yes, it is bad luck to launch a ship without a name. This implies that the current New Zealand Labour government aren't sailors. I read somewhere that they will be naming all of the ships later this year, when the ship arrives in Melbourne when another ship an OPV will be ready for launching.

Its not that difficult to name a ship. I was thinking on two lines of thought in naming this ship. Why not name her Protector, after all it is the projects name? This would follow in the steps of Resolution and Endeavour. Or the Maori equivalent, Kaitiaki, which would follow in the steps of Te Kaha and Te Mana.

The other line of thought since the launching was close to Valentine's Day was to name her after the Isle of Man Steam Packets Company ship's she was based on, the Ben My Chree, Gaelic for girl of my heart, but in Maori, Tamahine Na Taku Ngakau. Or simply sweetheart, but in Maori, Whaiaipo.

Well, that's my two lines of thought in naming her. I wanted to say I'm not an expert on Maori, and if I got the above wrong, I appologize forthwith, but at least give me credit for trying. Any correction will be welcome. What would you name her?
 
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Aussie Digger

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Sea Dog said:
I'll give you this, that's a lot farther than you'll ever get me to travel on a flat-bottomed LST.

I once took a day ride in 1993 on an LST to observe the pre-decom INSURV inspection. We were just out of the Creek and hung around just outside the Roads all day. The seas weren't too bad, and my stomach can handle pretty rough stuff, but....that day I was barf boy. Thank God my buddy let me crash in his stateroom 'cause I was a miserable pup!

p.s. Lunch in the Wardroom that day was a Rueben Sandwich. I'VE NEVER TOUCHED A RUEBEN SINCE.:mad:
A strong desire not to be charged was the main motivation getting me on the ship...
 

Sea Dog

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Sea Toby said:
What would you name her?
Well I've always been partial towards adjectives (Daring, Brave, Adventurous, etc) and animals (Tiger, Leopard, Shark, Flying Fish, etc). But nothing named after a woman....that's just bad luck too.

I don't know a single word of Maori, not even the words to that Haka stuff that goes on before the rugby matches--what the f**k do they say?
 

Stuart Mackey

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Sea Dog said:
Well I've always been partial towards adjectives (Daring, Brave, Adventurous, etc) and animals (Tiger, Leopard, Shark, Flying Fish, etc). But nothing named after a woman....that's just bad luck too.

I don't know a single word of Maori, not even the words to that Haka stuff that goes on before the rugby matches--what the f**k do they say?

Ka mate! Ka mate! Ka ora! Ka ora!
Ka mate! Ka mate! Ka ora! Ka ora!
Tenei te tangata puhuru huru
Nana nei i tiki mai
Whakawhiti te ra
A upa … ne! ka upa … ne!
A upane kaupane whiti te ra!
Hi!

I die! I die! I live! I live!
I die! I die! I live! I live!
This is the hairy man
Who fetched the Sun
And caused it to shine again
One upward step! Another upward step!
An upward step, another … the Sun shines!
And the new one, Kapa o pango

Kapa o pango kia whakawhenua au i ahau!
Let me become one with the land
Hi aue, hi!
Ko Aotearoa e ngunguru nei!
This is our land that rumbles
Au, au, aue ha!
And it's my time! It's my moment!
Ko Kapa o Pango e ngunguru nei!
This defines us as the All Blacks
Au, au, aue ha!
It's my time! It's my moment!
I ahaha!
Ka tu te ihiihi
Our dominance
Ka tu te wanawana
Our supremacy will triumph
Ki runga ki te rangi e tu iho nei,
tu iho nei, hi!
And will be placed on high
Ponga ra!
Silver fern!
Kapa o Pango, aue hi!
All Blacks!
Ponga ra!
Silver fern!
Kapa o Pango, aue hi, ha!
All Blacks!
 

Sea Toby

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I found using Google the conversion of meters square to lane meters. Divide by 3.6, will get you 12 feet wide lanes.

So the Newport has 1735 sq. meters of cargo space. Divide by 3.6 and you will receive 382 lane meters. The New Zealand MPV has 403 lane meters, plus 33 20 feet containers.

Interesting, isn't it.
 
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