New Aussie Air to air Refuellers.

A

Aussie Digger

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I think you have covered this issue superbly Todjaeger. AAR is a massive force multiplier than can be applied in practically every area of military aviation. I think it could also have civil applications for Australia. It could, for example, provide emergency refuelling of aircraft servicing bases in Antarctica, although the aircraft concerned would have to be modified for this.

Cheers
In addition, B-1B's cannot be used for air defence roles. Expending the relatively limited funding we have on such a "niche" capability would be almost criminal, IMHO.

A fleet of multirole aircraft or 2 (types), is a much better option for Australia, IMHO. Would Australia use an unescorted B-1B type aircraft on "first day" strike missions anyway? I seriously doubt it. It won't use F-111's in such a way. I cannot imagine B-1B's would be the same. B-2 would be different, but they are unavailable anyway.

IF we need our fleet to go further then they can right now (and this is VERY arguable) more AAR aircraft and longer ranged weapons are the answer, IMHO, not longer ranged aircraft that have only 1 role...
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
AAR is a massive force multiplier than can be applied in practically every area of military aviation. I think it could also have civil applications for Australia. It could, for example, provide emergency refuelling of aircraft servicing bases in Antarctica, although the aircraft concerned would have to be modified for this.

Cheers
I personally feel that provisions for AAR should be fitted to a number of civil aircraft, simply due to the types of missions they are, or might be called upon. Aircraft that engage in search/rescue operations come to mind. From the actual search aircraft which might need to loiter over an area for prolonged periods, to medevac aircraft travelling to and from remote areas. All might benefit from being able to tank up without landing. By extension, governental transport and patrol aircraft (non-military) could get the same benefits. Imagine the increased patrol time that could be made available to a Surveillance Australia Dash 8.

While such a capacity might find civilian use (traffic helicopters for instance) I think there might be less of a draw in such circumstances, mainly due to cost. On the other hand, AAR of civilian airliners might allow (and be cheaper) than multiple, connecting flights for long-distance travel. Or it could allow shorter range aircraft to undertake long-distance runs. There aren't many aircraft available for use on the Sydney-LA route non-stop. Civil AAR might just change that.

-Cheers
 

rjmaz1

New Member
You guys miss what im saying.

If you have a requirement to hit targets 1500 miles away, you would be crazy to buy an aircraft that can only go half the distance even if its cheaper. Once you take into account the tankers and extra escorts for the tankers its now much more expensive.

To take it to an extreme, say Australia bought 100 aircraft that can only travel 100 miles.. It would then need 100 refueling tankers just to allow the fleet to reach say Indonesia.

Refueling tankers cant fight back, are a sitting duck and require protection. If you can use an aircraft that doesn't require inflight refueling then it would definitely be the prefered option. I dont see how anyone can argue with that.

Regarding the B-52's requiring tankers, If Australia had B-52's and all the targets were within 2000 miles from the Australian coast then our B-52's would not need tanking.. However if we wanted to bomb China then we could refuel our B-52's to get their. The fact is we dont want to bomb china so no refueling needed.

And yes i still think the B-1b's would be excellent.

A single B-1b means 10 less fighter aircraft carrying bombs.
10 less fighter aircraft means 10 less escorts fighters.
20 less fighter aircraft means 5 Less tankers.
5 less tankers means 5 less tanker escorts etc

If you have a mission to drop ten 2,000lb bombs 2000 miles away, then use a single aircraft that can carry ten 2,000lb bombs and travel 2000 miles without refueling. Dont use ten aircraft with a bomb each and a couple tankers to help get them there...

I'd even go as far as saying Inflight refuelers are a bandaid solution. I can gurantee that the US bomber fleet would not be getting inflight refueling if they had secure bases within 3000 miles of their targets.

The same thing applied to air transport. If you need to carry 30 tonnes why use two Herc's that have to make a stopover on the way to the middle east? May as well put the load into C-17 and fly direct in half the time.
 
A

Aussie Digger

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http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/jassm.htm

Production unit cost: $700,000

Thats a $1m Australian.
So which part of that link do you wish to believe? The article itself which states: US$300,000 per round, or the table immediately below it which states: $700,000 each?

This site here:

http://www.deagel.com/Attack-Missiles/AGM-158-JASSM_a001073001.aspx

gives a unit cost for production JASSM missiles of: US$400,000 each, or AUD$511,541 based on current exchange rates....
 

Turk

New Member
Hi, Turk. I appreciate your passionate posting but I think it would be better not to use one liners which make no sense. Sorry, I honestly don't know what you want to say.

Ok I undertood you Falstaff I am saying that The refuelling is important because if any country has got this capabilities this country can be able to do operation in the overseas and lkong range operations.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
You guys miss what im saying.

If you have a requirement to hit targets 1500 miles away, you would be crazy to buy an aircraft that can only go half the distance even if its cheaper. Once you take into account the tankers and extra escorts for the tankers its now much more expensive.

To take it to an extreme, say Australia bought 100 aircraft that can only travel 100 miles.. It would then need 100 refueling tankers just to allow the fleet to reach say Indonesia.

Refueling tankers cant fight back, are a sitting duck and require protection. If you can use an aircraft that doesn't require inflight refueling then it would definitely be the prefered option. I dont see how anyone can argue with that.

Regarding the B-52's requiring tankers, If Australia had B-52's and all the targets were within 2000 miles from the Australian coast then our B-52's would not need tanking.. However if we wanted to bomb China then we could refuel our B-52's to get their. The fact is we dont want to bomb china so no refueling needed.

And yes i still think the B-1b's would be excellent.

A single B-1b means 10 less fighter aircraft carrying bombs.
10 less fighter aircraft means 10 less escorts fighters.
20 less fighter aircraft means 5 Less tankers.
5 less tankers means 5 less tanker escorts etc

If you have a mission to drop ten 2,000lb bombs 2000 miles away, then use a single aircraft that can carry ten 2,000lb bombs and travel 2000 miles without refueling. Dont use ten aircraft with a bomb each and a couple tankers to help get them there...

I'd even go as far as saying Inflight refuelers are a bandaid solution. I can gurantee that the US bomber fleet would not be getting inflight refueling if they had secure bases within 3000 miles of their targets.

The same thing applied to air transport. If you need to carry 30 tonnes why use two Herc's that have to make a stopover on the way to the middle east? May as well put the load into C-17 and fly direct in half the time.
Okay, where to start on this...

For starters, in the case of Australia and most of the world, the aircraft that can be purchased is restricted to what is available in the defence aviation market. If no aircraft is available for purchase with the desired range, then Australia cannot acquire it. Simple fact. What would need to be done in this case is to build/acquire capabilities (like AAR) that would allow the mission to be completed, without an aircraft of the desired range.

My second point has more to do with doctrine. Combat aircraft, today, can be roughly divided into two different range categories, tactical or strategic. Many nations operate tactical strike/fighter aircraft, but only a few nations operate strategic aircraft. Largely because few nations have the combination of need and budget to support such a capability. Also, strategic combat aircraft are at least at present, only bomber/strike aircraft. As a result of design limits and compromises, the strategic combat aircraft are larger and more expensive to purchase and operate than tactical aircraft (IIRC the B-2 was ~US$1 billion 15 years ago, the F-22A approximately US$150 million , but are approx. per unit costs for USAF) Due to the increased costs associated with strategic aircraft, they are not assigned tactical missions generally, being usually an inappropriate aircraft. For instance, if the mission is to go and drop bombs on a target with total flight distance round trip of only 500 miles, what is the sense in deploying an aircraft with a round trip range of 5,000 miles. Also, given that most nations, if drawn into a war, will most likely be fighting a neighbor, or another nearby nation.

As things stand now, I'm unaware of any strategic bomber/strike aircraft currently in production (Tu-160 might still be, not sure). So if it was decided that the RAAF needed a such long-range option, it would need to find a nation that has surplus strategic aircraft in service or a boneyard that would be willing to sell such aircraft to Australia. Then Australia would be saddled with the costs of updating/maintaining the aircraft which gives them an intercontinental strike range without refueling, by virtue of being strategic aircraft. If Australia did this (assuming it could) then a decision would need to be made in terms of aircraft numbers. While less aircraft could be acquired based off bombload, that would then reduce the number of aircraft available to assign missions to. Having all ones eggs (or bombs:D ) in one basket only works if there isn't attrition and the targets can all be reached by one aircraft, in one mission, within whatever timeframe is needed.

With smaller tactical aircraft being in-flight refueled, more options are available to an airforce than just relying on large strike aircraft to reach a target. Incidentally, many strategic aircraft for operational reasons also engage in AAR as well.

Lastly, the point that seems to keep being advocated is the rention or purchase of a replacement mid-range strike aircraft for the F-111. Unfortunately, that is not an option for the F-111 was unique in that respect. It was a strike aircraft which has capabilities somewhere between a tactical strike fighter and a strategic bomber. While the USAF is looking now, some 15 years after retiring it's F-111s force a possible modern equivalent replacement, nothing is available yet.

As for the need for Australia to be able to launch strikes into Southeast Asia or China... I don't see the need, and I believe that the costs associated with gaining the ability would take away from areas the ADF will need.

-Cheers
 

alexsa

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Refueling tankers cant fight back, are a sitting duck and require protection. If you can use an aircraft that doesn't require inflight refueling then it would definitely be the prefered option. I dont see how anyone can argue with that.

Regarding the B-52's requiring tankers, If Australia had B-52's and all the targets were within 2000 miles from the Australian coast then our B-52's would not need tanking.. However if we wanted to bomb China then we could refuel our B-52's to get their. The fact is we dont want to bomb china so no refueling needed..
Noting an AAR aircraft cannot fight back the BUFF is not much better and would need to be escorted if you are planning to bomb someone with a semi decent airforce and air defence... sort of kills that idea

And yes i still think the B-1b's would be excellent.

A single B-1b means 10 less fighter aircraft carrying bombs.
10 less fighter aircraft means 10 less escorts fighters.
20 less fighter aircraft means 5 Less tankers.
5 less tankers means 5 less tanker escorts etc

If you have a mission to drop ten 2,000lb bombs 2000 miles away, then use a single aircraft that can carry ten 2,000lb bombs and travel 2000 miles without refueling. Dont use ten aircraft with a bomb each and a couple tankers to help get them there... .
And all your eggs in one basket. I doubt the US would sell any to us but if they did the operating costs would be prohibitive and would only get worse over time given the age of the aircraft and the small number produced.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
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As things stand now, I'm unaware of any strategic bomber/strike aircraft currently in production (Tu-160 might still be, not sure).
It is, but only at a very low rate of about one every two years or something.

Cheers

Magoo
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
It is, but only at a very low rate of about one every two years or something.

Cheers

Magoo
Great, lets get the RAAF to place an order. By the time enough are built to enter service, the RAAF can escort them with tanked F-35s... :rolleyes:

Oh! Wait, that'd mean tankers would still be needed...

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Just feel urge to add one more argument about the viability of AAR. Even if not used by the RAAF, AAR capacity can be something offered to allies if they have a need. This can be something very useful, particularly in situations where Australia cannot, for whatever reason, contribute forces directly. Addition of forces to ease the logistic burden could be a contribution. Keep in mind the numerous discussions in other threads about how some international operations were assisted by US logistical support. If Australia is able to also start some contributions in a similar vein, it could broaden Australian experiences and influence.

-Cheers
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Great, lets get the RAAF to place an order. By the time enough are built to enter service, the RAAF can escort them with tanked F-35s... :rolleyes:

Oh! Wait, that'd mean tankers would still be needed...

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Just feel urge to add one more argument about the viability of AAR. Even if not used by the RAAF, AAR capacity can be something offered to allies if they have a need. This can be something very useful, particularly in situations where Australia cannot, for whatever reason, contribute forces directly. Addition of forces to ease the logistic burden could be a contribution. Keep in mind the numerous discussions in other threads about how some international operations were assisted by US logistical support. If Australia is able to also start some contributions in a similar vein, it could broaden Australian experiences and influence.

-Cheers
I agree with this Todjaeger.

In fact 33 Squadron has provided air-to-air refuelling support to Coalition forces in the Middle East in 1998 and Afghanistan in 2002, using two 707 tankers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._33_Squadron_RAAF

Considering the small size of the tanker force (just 4 aircraft) this represented a significant commitment (50% of the available force).

Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

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Noting an AAR aircraft cannot fight back the BUFF is not much better and would need to be escorted if you are planning to bomb someone with a semi decent airforce and air defence... sort of kills that idea

And all your eggs in one basket. I doubt the US would sell any to us but if they did the operating costs would be prohibitive and would only get worse over time given the age of the aircraft and the small number produced.
Unfortunately I very much doubt RJMAZ1 understands the term: TSL (Tanker Support line) which is an "operational line" tankers do not cross to ensure their survival, but which is sufficient to ensure the tactical fighters can get to their target.

However, if the EWSP system on an AAR can't protect it from enemy missiles, why would a B-1B fare any better? Despite it's speed (impressive for a large aircraft, I admit) compared to a tactical fighter it's still no contest...
 

alexsa

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Unfortunately I very much doubt RJMAZ1 understands the term: TSL (Tanker Support line) which is an "operational line" tankers do not cross to ensure their survival, but which is sufficient to ensure the tactical fighters can get to their target.

However, if the EWSP system on an AAR can't protect it from enemy missiles, why would a B-1B fare any better? Despite it's speed (impressive for a large aircraft, I admit) compared to a tactical fighter it's still no contest...
I actually despair a bit given the range of suggestion that want Australia to buy legacy platforms such as the B-52. B-1B, F-16s and, even more amusing, A-10s in lieu of the JSF. (I have no problem with an interim F-18F buy)

There was some talk about the RAAF looking at buying QANTAS A330-200 when the dreamliner (B787) hits the streets, do you have naything on that.
 

Tasman

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I actually despair a bit given the range of suggestion that want Australia to buy legacy platforms such as the B-52. B-1B, F-16s and, even more amusing, A-10s in lieu of the JSF. (I have no problem with an interim F-18F buy)
One organisation not suggesting any of these platforms is the RAAF. That seems to provide a pretty clear message to me!

There was some talk about the RAAF looking at buying QANTAS A330-200 when the dreamliner (B787) hits the streets, do you have naything on that.
As a large number of these platforms should come onto the market it would certainly be a good chance for the RAAF to build up its tanker/transport fleet at a reduced cost. It would be interesting to know if this opportunity is likely to be seriously investigated by the air force as almost everyone seems to be of the opinion that 5 refuellers is way too few.

Cheers
 
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A

Aussie Digger

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One organisation not suggesting any of these platforms is the RAAF. That seems to provide a pretty clear message to me!



As a large number of these platforms should come onto the market it would certainly be a good chance for the RAAF to build up its tanker/transport fleet at a reduced cost. It would be interesting to know if this opportunity is likely to be seriously investigated by the air force as almost everyone seems to be of the opinion that 5 refuellers is way to few.

Cheers
I think even Air Marshall Shepherd has acknowledged that the current planned future AAR force will only provide a "small" enhancement in capability over the current fleet of 3x B-707 AAR's (I believe 1x is no longer operational, but Magoo or Occum may be able to correct that).

The offload capability, lift capacity and availability rates of the KC-30's will provide a massive boost in capability over the present B-707 based force, however I'm sure RAAF would like at least another 3-5 aircraft to provide a genuinely credible operational AAR force.

The future force will at least allow us to deploy 2x AAR's on operations or exercises for extended periods, with a training and limited "reserve" operational force at home. The lift capacity boost would be welcome as well as you can never have too much lift capacity... :)
 

swerve

Super Moderator
As a large number of these platforms should come onto the market it would certainly be a good chance for the RAAF to build up its tanker/transport fleet at a reduced cost. It would be interesting to know if this opportunity is likely to be seriously investigated by the air force as almost everyone seems to be of the opinion that 5 refuellers is way too few.

Cheers
AFAIK secondhand A330s are currently heavily in demand, & not common, larely because the A330 is selling well, with delivery slots booked up well ahead. That may change in a few years, but exactly when?

If the RAAF wants a short-term boost to tanker capability, secondhand A310s could be obtained more easily. There are even more A300s around, & the A310 conversion should be easily adaptable to the A300, given the degreee of commonality. A relatively cheap short-term solution, but at the price of introducing an extra type.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Noting an AAR aircraft cannot fight back the BUFF is not much better and would need to be escorted if you are planning to bomb someone with a semi decent airforce and air defence... sort of kills that idea.
Yes the escorts would need tankers, my calcultion already took this into account. As the 10 bomb carrying hornets would need atleast 2 tankers being replaced by a single B-1b would elimate two tankers right off the bat.

As you have 1 bomber instead of 10, you need fewer escorts, half the escorts means half the tankers again.

As the B-1b can travel slightly above Mach 1 the whole time it travels through enemy territory it will be much more survivable than 10 subsonic superhornets. The B-1b will sustain a speed 50% faster than the Hornets and Super Hornets. Even though the B-1b would be constantly in afterburners it can afford to do so as it has more than enough fuel to cover all F-111 missions.

The B-1b's limited stealth ability would help alot combined with its high speed it would survive fairly hostile environments. Dropping JDAM's from 50,000feet at Mach 1 also gives a decent standoff range and they are very cheap weapons

Speed + low RCS = high survivability
And all your eggs in one basket. I doubt the US would sell any to us but if they did the operating costs would be prohibitive and would only get worse over time given the age of the aircraft and the small number produced.
Yes having so few bombers would be putting your eggs in one basket. However the B-1b's would only be used in an full scale war in our region. Just like our F-111's they would act as a huge detterant.

The operating costs would be alot, however operating 5 B-1b aircraft would have a lower total cost than a squadron of say 20 F-111 aircraft. So if you divide the total operating cost with every bomb dropped the B-1b will have cheaper operating costs. A single B-1b could carry the the same amount of bombs as an entire squadron of JSF aircraft.

I believe if we asked the US we would get B-1b's. They have aircraft sitting there rusting away, that can be easily restored quite cheaply based on what the USAF has already done.
 
A

Aussie Digger

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Yes the escorts would need tankers, my calcultion already took this into account. As the 10 bomb carrying hornets would need atleast 2 tankers being replaced by a single B-1b would elimate two tankers right off the bat.

As you have 1 bomber instead of 10, you need fewer escorts, half the escorts means half the tankers again.

As the B-1b can travel slightly above Mach 1 the whole time it travels through enemy territory it will be much more survivable than 10 subsonic superhornets. The B-1b will sustain a speed 50% faster than the Hornets and Super Hornets. Even though the B-1b would be constantly in afterburners it can afford to do so as it has more than enough fuel to cover all F-111 missions.

The B-1b's limited stealth ability would help alot combined with its high speed it would survive fairly hostile environments. Dropping JDAM's from 50,000feet at Mach 1 also gives a decent standoff range and they are very cheap weapons

Speed + low RCS = high survivability

Yes having so few bombers would be putting your eggs in one basket. However the B-1b's would only be used in an full scale war in our region. Just like our F-111's they would act as a huge detterant.

The operating costs would be alot, however operating 5 B-1b aircraft would have a lower total cost than a squadron of say 20 F-111 aircraft. So if you divide the total operating cost with every bomb dropped the B-1b will have cheaper operating costs. A single B-1b could carry the the same amount of bombs as an entire squadron of JSF aircraft.

I believe if we asked the US we would get B-1b's. They have aircraft sitting there rusting away, that can be easily restored quite cheaply based on what the USAF has already done.
Just what we want to purchase, aircraft that are currently rusting away...

Tell me, how much A2A capacity does a B-1B have? IN case you haven't seen the recent news, RAAF doesn't require the "bomb tossing" capability that the F-111 possesses, let alone the B-1B. Maybe we could upgrade them and build some B-1B "missileers"... :eek:nfloorl:

Whilst a B-1B might be able to carry as many bombs as a JSF squadron, it can't quite do the concurrent missions that a JSF Squadron can do, can it? Nor is it much chop at ISR missions, air defence, BDA and (probably) maritime strike.

The B-1B despite your calculations will need a fighter escort. These will need tankers in your "full scale war"...

The B-1B has a marginal ability to travel supersonic. It can manage it, but only just. The option of travelling long distances on afterburner is not an option even on an aircraft as large as the B-1B to the best of my knowledge. The B-1B might have limited stealth, but it's RCS is massive compared to F-35. It's survivability is only guaranteed if USAF/N tac fighters have "cleared" the airspace it's intended to operate in. The B-2 is the asset the USAF uses to penetrate airspace alone...

Unfortunately I think you're grasping at straws once again mate...
 

Bluey262

New Member
G'Day Gents, 1st post so be gentle.
Having visited AMMAC in Arizona last year and spoken to the staff on site, the B1Bs that are stored there are beyond their airframe life and are being broken up for spares. The USAF is short of B1Bs as it is and it is very unlikely there would be any available for purchase anyway. It seems they are likely to run out of B1Bs before they run out of B52s, and I assume no-one here would suggest we should buy them(B52s).
 
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Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
G'Day Gents, 1st post so be gentle.
Having visited ARRMA in Arizona last year and spoken to the staff on site, the B1Bs that are stored there are beyond their airframe life and are being broken up for spares. The USAF is short of B1Bs as it is and it is very unlikely there would be any available for purchase anyway. It seems they are likely to run out of B1Bs before they run out of B52s, and I assume no-one here would suggest we should buy them(B52s).
Thanks for this info Bluey and welcome to DT. Perhaps this might put the B1-B proposition to rest once and for all! :D

Cheers
 
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