mirage2000 out of iaf race for mrca

[aaaditya]

My apologies. Total cost of F-18 E/F in IAF will touch $40 Billion not 4 Billion as posted earlier by me. My mistake.

even if we estimate the cost of f18e/f with full weapon load,transfer of technology for the aircraft,various systems like the engines and the avionics and radar,plus the cost of training ,and setting up of infrastructure and assuming that the iaf acquires them outright from boeing,the total value of the deal will come to 30billion dollars of which 30%(9.9billion dollars),would be offset to the indian industry as part of the subcontract work,so it is highly surprising how you got the 40billion dollars figure.

by the way according to boeing 18-20 aircrafts (if selected)would be built in usa and the rest will be assembled in india using completely knocked down kits followed by the manufacture of the rest under tot . this will be considerably cheaper due to substantially lower labour cost in india when compared to usa.

by the way iam quite sure that the order for the 120 aircrafts would be equally split between two contenders,each supplying 60 aircrafts of which 18-20 will be assembled in the parent country while the rest would be assembled in indian with ckd's.

overall i dont expect the entire mrca budget to exceed 20billion dollars(at the most 25 billion dollars if no decision is taken within the next 5 years).

 

[aaaditya]

Based on the recent Algerian purchase, 40 mig-29smt for 1.5 billion. I'm guessing you are looking at 40 million each. Gripen would probably be similar. However, I think Gripen really does not fit IAF's requirement, since it is designed for a country with small airspace.

another reason why the gripen has no chance in the indian market is because of the lca project.despite its delays the government is fully supporting the project and so is the air force and the navy,recently a top naval pilot test flew the lca.

the lca has similiar technological and performance capbility as the gripen and the acquisition of gripen would meen lca's death kneel.

another reason is the india has absolutely no experience operating a swedish designed combat jet,consequently acquiring this aircraft would be as problematic as acquiring the f16 or the f18 since the maintainence facilities and infrastructure will have to be set up from the scratch.

 

[ajaybhutani]

Why are we forgetting about the Gripen. SAAb of late have been marketing their product heavily to the indian. take a look.
http://www.newkerala.com/news.php?action=fullnews&id=99032

gripen has too much american parts.. like american engine.. its just the same as buying from US itself.. in fact worse as these american parts will not be via ToT. and on the tech front .. i dont think it wil have anything much to offer to us via ToT....

 

[ajaybhutani]

well, the thing with Rafale is that the level of ToT is probably not going to be that high. The French probably would not be too keen in giving away all of its latest secrets and such. Whereas, you would get a full ToT with M2K most likely. Mig-35 will definitely mean a full ToT with no strings attached (well, other than reliability issues, : ).

i think the french airplanes are near dying out of competition if they dont do something about it.. of course the other players.. US/Russia/EU/China have their customers.. french need to realize that its either compromise or death of their jet industry.... they wont find a better chance to sell Rafale than india ..

 

[ajaybhutani]

even if we estimate the cost of f18e/f with full weapon load,transfer of technology for the aircraft,various systems like the engines and the avionics and radar,plus the cost of training ,and setting up of infrastructure and assuming that the iaf acquires them outright from boeing,the total value of the deal will come to 30billion dollars of which 30%(9.9billion dollars),would be offset to the indian industry as part of the subcontract work,so it is highly surprising how you got the 40billion dollars figure.

by the way according to boeing 18-20 aircrafts (if selected)would be built in usa and the rest will be assembled in india using completely knocked down kits followed by the manufacture of the rest under tot . this will be considerably cheaper due to substantially lower labour cost in india when compared to usa.

by the way iam quite sure that the order for the 120 aircrafts would be equally split between two contenders,each supplying 60 aircrafts of which 18-20 will be assembled in the parent country while the rest would be assembled in indian with ckd's.

overall i dont expect the entire mrca budget to exceed 20billion dollars(at the most 25 billion dollars if no decision is taken within the next 5 years).

i dont undrestand one thing.. why is there a belief flowing that MRCA will be divided into two parties?? .. are there some confirmed reports ??
it would make no sense to buy 60 this plane and 60 that plane..
as that means we wont set up manufacturing facilities for either.. => higher costs.. ,no new technology., too high costs in logistics.... it would be better to buy 120 of the better plane..
BTW where are the 20 B $ from??

 

[ajaybhutani]

Based on the recent Algerian purchase, 40 mig-29smt for 1.5 billion. I'm guessing you are looking at 40 million each. Gripen would probably be similar. However, I think Gripen really does not fit IAF's requirement, since it is designed for a country with small airspace.

thats rite..
we already have a plane to be put on the airstrips along the borders in LCA .. we designed it for that purpose.. Gripen will a range/payload no larger than LCA. will be a waste of money for us.
we need something between LCA and SU30MKI.. and not a replacement of these planes.

 

[ajaybhutani]

My apologies. Total cost of F-18 E/F in IAF will touch $40 Billion not 4 Billion as posted earlier by me. My mistake.

can u give the breakup ur 40 B $ figure ?

 

[ajaybhutani]

one of the strengts/weaknesses of F18 EF is that fact that it runs on a GE404 advanced derivative( rite ?)
.. so if EF is selected either Kaveri will come up to standards.. or will die and replaced by this engine....(its more probable that indians will ask americans to help them bring kaveri tech up to this standard. ).. as it makes a lot of sense to have a single factory producing engines for 200 LCA's and 125 EF's.

 

[Hussain]

I think the F18's fit into India's overall airforce modernisation plans. However , I think India's decision of whether or not to purchase the plane will be political rather than economic. Judging by the size of India's military and defence budget overall spending $80-90 million per high tech plane will be an appropriate move.

I think the French defence industry is on the decline and the French need to justify the amount they demand for their planes. The French may have assumed that they have a good chance of selling the Mirage 2000 to India as they already operate the plane.

 

[aaaditya]

gripen has too much american parts.. like american engine.. its just the same as buying from US itself.. in fact worse as these american parts will not be via ToT. and on the tech front .. i dont think it wil have anything much to offer to us via ToT....

the us engine on the gripen has been replaced by the swedish engine developed by volvo it is a variant of the ge engine just like our kaveri.
also iam sure that the gripen can be easily modified to accept the ej200 engine.besides under the present circumstances iam quite sure that india will have no problem in aquiring a us engine should gripen be selected.

 

[ajaybhutani]

the us engine on the gripen has been replaced by the swedish engine developed by volvo it is a variant of the ge engine just like our kaveri.

the RM12 in question here is just an improvement over GE404.. to make it more suitable for sintgle engine fighter operation,more resitance to bird strikes etc..
while kaveri is a new engine development altogether.( we started kaveri because we didnt have the GE... RM12 was built over GE404. )..

also iam sure that the gripen can be easily modified to accept the ej220 engine.

quite frankly how can we get our hands on the ej200 engine..??.. do you think the EU will give u EJ220 without purchasing the EF2000( esp when this jet is a contender too..).

besides under the present circumstances iam quite sure that india will have no problem in aquiring a us engine should gripen be selected.

if india doesnt have any problem in acquiring the us engine for gripen.. then i guess it shudnt have a problem in acquiring the F18's instead, much better planes.. proven.. fit into MRCA role much better than gripen( which is a much smaller range/payload and not medium category.. ). as that will bring in better engine technology with more ToT's than we can get from gripen..( gripen itself has nothing much we can learn ..).

 

[tphuang]

Gripen is imo the most overrated fighter. It has no range or payload whatsoever. It has no stealth features. The only selling point is that its a cheap and manuverable fighters. That really isn't enough.

Back on point, I just read on afm that Rafale with full set of sensors and weapons would cost 145 million each. I guess that tosses away my 69 million dollar theory. We can assume that Typhoon would cost around there. A super hornet with APG-79 and AMRAAM and latest PGMs and sensors would cost probably 90 million each or more. I can't imagine it being less than 80 million that UAE paid for F-16E/F. Choosing between mig-35 and Gripen for the majority of MRCA, I'd definitely go with Mig-35. So, I'm guessing it's going to be 2/3 mig-35 and 1/3 out of (typhoon, rafale, f-18)

 

[dreamwarrior73]

i would bet all my money on MiG-35

An updated MiG-29 with advanced western+russian avionics, strengthen airframe and new thrust vectoring, smoke-less, reliable engine.

now that would the most sensible and logical choice.

 

[ajaybhutani]

Gripen is imo the most overrated fighter. It has no range or payload whatsoever. It has no stealth features. The only selling point is that its a cheap and manuverable fighters. That really isn't enough.

Back on point, I just read on afm that Rafale with full set of sensors and weapons would cost 145 million each. I guess that tosses away my 69 million dollar theory. We can assume that Typhoon would cost around there. A super hornet with APG-79 and AMRAAM and latest PGMs and sensors would cost probably 90 million each or more. I can't imagine it being less than 80 million that UAE paid for F-16E/F. Choosing between mig-35 and Gripen for the majority of MRCA, I'd definitely go with Mig-35. So, I'm guessing it's going to be 2/3 mig-35 and 1/3 out of (typhoon, rafale, f-18)

Are there reports stating that india is planning to buy from multiple sources in this deal?

 

[tphuang]

i would bet all my money on MiG-35

An updated MiG-29 with advanced western+russian avionics, strengthen airframe and new thrust vectoring, smoke-less, reliable engine.

now that would the most sensible and logical choice.

I would never call any Russian engine reliable. The fact that smoke-less would even have to be mentionned is a travesty.

As for 2 platforms, that's just my guess, if the MRCA requirement really is 200 fighters.

 

[Izzy1]

Just out of interest, does the Mig-33 have in-flight refuelling capability?

Also, does anyone know if Typhoon, F/A-18 or Rafale could refuel from the IAF's Il-76 Midas Tankers without major modification? I'm pretty sure they can but would not mid if someone could confirm.

 

[ajaybhutani]

I would never call any Russian engine reliable. The fact that smoke-less would even have to be mentionned is a travesty.

As for 2 platforms, that's just my guess, if the MRCA requirement really is 200 fighters.

If we can plan for 200 LCA's, 190 MKi's i dont see a problem to have 200 MMRCA's(as a single platform ) ..
We had much higher numbers for Mig21's.

 

[pshamim]

If we can plan for 200 LCA's, 190 MKi's i dont see a problem to have 200 MMRCA's(as a single platform ) ..
We had much higher numbers for Mig21's.

Reports suggest that the expanded order for 200 MRCAs may very well be the result of a lack of confidence in LCAs. With the bigger order India may be trying to kill two birds at the same time i.e. buying the total requirement minus LCA from couple of sources to make them happy and tied. India cannot divide the current requirement of 126 into two separate orders and hope that it will get a great deal.

Well LCA "Tejas" may have become the casualty when additional funds are gobbled up by purchase of 200 MRCA as per the following report suggests in Indian Press today. This article also gives some information on Kaveri. I think India will succeed after it partners with Snecma or Pratt & Whitney for Kaveri development. Do you agree?




Tejas: Take-off trouble

Cash crunch stalls Tejas

SUJAN DUTTAhttp://www.telegraphindia.com/1060206/images/05tejas.jpg


Tejas: Take-off trouble

New Delhi, Feb. 5: The Indian Air Force has cited a resource crunch and is going slow on placing an order for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) called Tejas despite repeated requests from the defence research establishment.
The Indian Air Force is now in the middle of a process to acquire 126 multi-role combat aircraft and with the LCA project limping, air headquarters is studying whether it should actually work to acquire more — about 200 — aircraft.
The LCA is just one of the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) projects that smacks, typically, of over-promise and under-delivery. But the research organisation’s chief, M. Natarajan, believes that no deadline can be set for its projects and that the sloth does not add to the tax-payers’ burden.
The DRDO that is developing the LCA jointly with the defence public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has been waiting expectantly for the IAF order to infuse funds into the project and also to get a user’s assurance.
Though air headquarters has not said so in public, it is weighing whether it should commit funds because it is anticipating a resource crunch for the big ticket purchases of multi-role combat aircraft — that could cost the exchequer more than $5 billion over 10 years — and other equipment that it has projected as an immediate need.
Natarajan, who is also the scientific adviser to the defence minister, said during the CII-defence ministry organised Defexpo 2006 that concluded yesterday, that HAL would be given a production order for 20 LCA — the aircraft was christened Tejas by former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee — only after the air force gets the approval for its funds.
Natarajan claimed the weapons integration process for the LCA has been completed.
The LCA was projected to replace the IAF’s ageing MiG 21 air defence fighter as the mainstay of its fighter fleet in a decade but slippages and disruptions delayed the project and upset perspective planning in defence headquarters.
One of the major causes of the slippages in production is the delay in the development of the Kaveri engine that was planned to power the aircraft. But the development of the Kaveri, already hit because of US sanctions (since lifted) that followed the 1998 nuclear tests, has run into more trouble with ground tests of the engine in Russia showing poor results.

​

atarajan claimed the weapons integration process for the LCA has been completed.
The LCA was projected to replace the IAF’s ageing MiG 21 air defence fighter as the mainstay of its fighter fleet in a decade but slippages and disruptions delayed the project and upset perspective planning in defence headquarters.
One of the major causes of the slippages in production is the delay in the development of the Kaveri engine that was planned to power the aircraft. But the development of the Kaveri, already hit because of US sanctions (since lifted) that followed the 1998 nuclear tests, has run into more trouble with ground tests of the engine in Russia showing poor results.

​

 

[aaaditya]

Reports suggest that the expanded order for 200 MRCAs may very well be the result of a lack of confidence in LCAs. With the bigger order India may be trying to kill two birds at the same time i.e. buying the total requirement minus LCA from couple of sources to make them happy and tied. India cannot divide the current requirement of 126 into two separate orders and hope that it will get a great deal.

Well LCA "Tejas" may have become the casualty when additional funds are gobbled up by purchase of 200 MRCA as per the following report suggests in Indian Press today. This article also gives some information on Kaveri. I think India will succeed after it partners with Snecma or Pratt & Whitney for Kaveri development. Do you agree?






Tejas: Take-off trouble

Cash crunch stalls Tejas

SUJAN DUTTAhttp://www.telegraphindia.com/1060206/images/05tejas.jpg




Tejas: Take-off trouble

New Delhi, Feb. 5: The Indian Air Force has cited a resource crunch and is going slow on placing an order for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) called Tejas despite repeated requests from the defence research establishment.
The Indian Air Force is now in the middle of a process to acquire 126 multi-role combat aircraft and with the LCA project limping, air headquarters is studying whether it should actually work to acquire more — about 200 — aircraft.
The LCA is just one of the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) projects that smacks, typically, of over-promise and under-delivery. But the research organisation’s chief, M. Natarajan, believes that no deadline can be set for its projects and that the sloth does not add to the tax-payers’ burden.
The DRDO that is developing the LCA jointly with the defence public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has been waiting expectantly for the IAF order to infuse funds into the project and also to get a user’s assurance.
Though air headquarters has not said so in public, it is weighing whether it should commit funds because it is anticipating a resource crunch for the big ticket purchases of multi-role combat aircraft — that could cost the exchequer more than $5 billion over 10 years — and other equipment that it has projected as an immediate need.
Natarajan, who is also the scientific adviser to the defence minister, said during the CII-defence ministry organised Defexpo 2006 that concluded yesterday, that HAL would be given a production order for 20 LCA — the aircraft was christened Tejas by former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee — only after the air force gets the approval for its funds.
Natarajan claimed the weapons integration process for the LCA has been completed.
The LCA was projected to replace the IAF’s ageing MiG 21 air defence fighter as the mainstay of its fighter fleet in a decade but slippages and disruptions delayed the project and upset perspective planning in defence headquarters.
One of the major causes of the slippages in production is the delay in the development of the Kaveri engine that was planned to power the aircraft. But the development of the Kaveri, already hit because of US sanctions (since lifted) that followed the 1998 nuclear tests, has run into more trouble with ground tests of the engine in Russia showing poor results.



​

atarajan claimed the weapons integration process for the LCA has been completed.
The LCA was projected to replace the IAF’s ageing MiG 21 air defence fighter as the mainstay of its fighter fleet in a decade but slippages and disruptions delayed the project and upset perspective planning in defence headquarters.
One of the major causes of the slippages in production is the delay in the development of the Kaveri engine that was planned to power the aircraft. But the development of the Kaveri, already hit because of US sanctions (since lifted) that followed the 1998 nuclear tests, has run into more trouble with ground tests of the engine in Russia showing poor results.



​

one thing very difficult for you to understand is that the mrca has got nothing to do with the lca project,the airforce will place an initial order for 20 lca's this march followed by an option of another 20 lca's for operational experience,also the navy has expressed renewed interest in this project,just a couple of days back a senior naval pilot test flew the lca.

by the way the thing about acquiring the lca was stated by the indian air chief himself in an interview given to the force magazine february2006 edition.

so i would give more credibility to a statement made by the airchief himself.

 

[ajaybhutani]

Reports suggest that the expanded order for 200 MRCAs may very well be the result of a lack of confidence in LCAs. With the bigger order India may be trying to kill two birds at the same time i.e. buying the total requirement minus LCA from couple of sources to make them happy and tied. India cannot divide the current requirement of 126 into two separate orders and hope that it will get a great deal.

Well LCA "Tejas" may have become the casualty when additional funds are gobbled up by purchase of 200 MRCA as per the following report suggests in Indian Press today. This article also gives some information on Kaveri. I think India will succeed after it partners with Snecma or Pratt & Whitney for Kaveri development. Do you agree?




Tejas: Take-off trouble

Cash crunch stalls Tejas

SUJAN DUTTAhttp://www.telegraphindia.com/1060206/images/05tejas.jpg


Tejas: Take-off trouble

New Delhi, Feb. 5: The Indian Air Force has cited a resource crunch and is going slow on placing an order for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) called Tejas despite repeated requests from the defence research establishment.
The Indian Air Force is now in the middle of a process to acquire 126 multi-role combat aircraft and with the LCA project limping, air headquarters is studying whether it should actually work to acquire more — about 200 — aircraft.
The LCA is just one of the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) projects that smacks, typically, of over-promise and under-delivery. But the research organisation’s chief, M. Natarajan, believes that no deadline can be set for its projects and that the sloth does not add to the tax-payers’ burden.
The DRDO that is developing the LCA jointly with the defence public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has been waiting expectantly for the IAF order to infuse funds into the project and also to get a user’s assurance.
Though air headquarters has not said so in public, it is weighing whether it should commit funds because it is anticipating a resource crunch for the big ticket purchases of multi-role combat aircraft — that could cost the exchequer more than $5 billion over 10 years — and other equipment that it has projected as an immediate need.
Natarajan, who is also the scientific adviser to the defence minister, said during the CII-defence ministry organised Defexpo 2006 that concluded yesterday, that HAL would be given a production order for 20 LCA — the aircraft was christened Tejas by former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee — only after the air force gets the approval for its funds.
Natarajan claimed the weapons integration process for the LCA has been completed.
The LCA was projected to replace the IAF’s ageing MiG 21 air defence fighter as the mainstay of its fighter fleet in a decade but slippages and disruptions delayed the project and upset perspective planning in defence headquarters.
One of the major causes of the slippages in production is the delay in the development of the Kaveri engine that was planned to power the aircraft. But the development of the Kaveri, already hit because of US sanctions (since lifted) that followed the 1998 nuclear tests, has run into more trouble with ground tests of the engine in Russia showing poor results.

​

atarajan claimed the weapons integration process for the LCA has been completed.
The LCA was projected to replace the IAF’s ageing MiG 21 air defence fighter as the mainstay of its fighter fleet in a decade but slippages and disruptions delayed the project and upset perspective planning in defence headquarters.
One of the major causes of the slippages in production is the delay in the development of the Kaveri engine that was planned to power the aircraft. But the development of the Kaveri, already hit because of US sanctions (since lifted) that followed the 1998 nuclear tests, has run into more trouble with ground tests of the engine in Russia showing poor results.

​

all the points for which this article is produced.. are mere speculations from the author himself.. like 200 planes, inconfidence in LCA.. And we all know the level of defence writing in india. The air chf has cleary stated his confidence in LCA by saying that production for LCA will start in 2008 and i would prefer to take his words against any unknown reporter( acting like a defence analyst without knowing ABC of defence. ) in this article..