Military Balance in South Asia

[vijayshimla]

MilitaryBalance

I think these figures regarding the tank inventory of Pak Army seems to be slightly inflated

2500-Type-69 Tanks with Pak Army – according to normally reliable Sinodefence com I quote ‘Over 2,000 Type 69 tanks were sold to countries in Asia, Africa, and Middle East in the 1980s. The tank was used in combat by both sides during the 1980s Iran-Iraq War, and by the Iraqi Army during the 1991 Gulf War and the following 2003 Operation Iraqi Freedom. The tank posed little threat to the Western MBT, and was destroyed in mass numbers by the Coalition Force’s ground forces and air strikes’= If 2000 odd were sold-in in 80’s then chances of 2500 in Pak army inventory seem to be far fetched.

1200-type 59 tanks also have the same story-‘The Type 59 tank is generally regarded as obsolete by today’s standard. The 1990/91 Gulf War and 2003 Operation Iraqi Freedom both saw heavy losses in Iraqi Amy-operated Type 59/69 and T-54/55 tanks.’

Both Type 59 & Type 69 would be more of a burden rather than an asset for Pakistan Army.

 

[Izzy1]

Jane's World Armies - Pakistan MBT Strength - 16/05/2006


Al Khalid - 100+ (with an intended production run of 300)
M48A5 - 200 (in storage)
Type 59/59M/Zarrar - 200/600/100 (Zarrar conversion intended for 500)
Type 69 - 250
Type 85-IIAP - 300 (Production speculated to aim at 600)
T-80UD - 320

Total MBT Strength - 2070

 

[Izzy1]

Jane's World Armies - Indian MBT Strength - 23/06/2006

Arjun Mk1 - 0 (125 on order)
T-90S Bhishma - 186 (further 124 to be delivered in kit form over 2006/2007)
T-72M1 Ajeya - 1900 (Refurb/Rebuild programme severly behind schedule, with only 323 upgraded Ajeya in service as of June 06. Total fleet availability is likely to be less than 1200 battle-worthy vehicles at present)
T-54/55 - 700 (250 of which in storage)


Total MBT Strength - 2786 (2910 with further T-90S deliveries) on paper.

 

[LordoftheLord]

may be my estimation was also misleading but, to cut it in short pakistan has 2,300 while india has 2,500...


A.Burke
PA 2,461 INA3,978

 

[Izzy1]

One aspect of the armour balance in Southern Asia is Pakistan's lack of true Infantry Fighting Vehicles.

Apart from several hundred Maaz M113-A1s with the Baktar Shikan ATGW, the rest of Pakistan's mechanised forces rely on the ubiquitous M113-A1 in standard APC form and a couple of hundred more Type 531 and BTR-70s.

India on the other hand can call upon at least 1500 BMP1/2s.

I'm guessing Pakistan has concentrated funding towards MBTs and certainly in the stakes of tanks, appears close to achieving parity.

 

[LordoftheLord]

once the indian general said, it takes pakistan 2 days to fully deploy there troops on border while it takes india about a week!! meaning pakistan is 364 24hours ready.. even if india has the same amount of troops pakistan is still the first one to be on the battle field.. so to counter indian 1500 BMP1/2s Infantry Fighting Vehicles the pakistani infantry has Equipped it self with 6,000 TOW BGM-71, and locally mass produced Bakter-Shikan over 5,000 are on order!

 

[Waylander]

The question is if a battle occurs suddenly with units in the border area have to act nearly without further preparation or if they start fighting after weeks of crisis and troop movements.

 

[Waylander]

What I want to say is that if a war starts by surprise Pak should be in a better situation due to its higher alert level and the smaller distances to the front for most of their units.
If the war starts after a longer time of crisis India should be able to deploy the bulk of its troops to the border and both should be at the same level.

 

[kams]

What I want to say is that if a war starts by surprise Pak should be in a better situation due to its higher alert level and the smaller distances to the front for most of their units.
If the war starts after a longer time of crisis India should be able to deploy the bulk of its troops to the border and both should be at the same level.

The perception that IA will take longer to deploy it's offencive strike corps to border is old and is based on IA's deployment as per Sunderji doctrine. The limitation of this doctrine was demonstrated during Operation Parakhram in 2002. To overcome this and to exploit security/insecirity paradox of nuclear stand-off, IA came out with new doctrine. As per the new IA doctrine of 2004, 8 IBG's incorporating elements of Army Air corps, IAF and Naval (southern command) are being formed and these are to be located close to borders. Having up to 8 IBG spread all over the border gives IA elusive surpise element with respect to time and location.

If any one is intrested, I would be happy to share some intresting papers.

 

[aaaditya]

i believ one advantage that the indian army has over pakistan is that it has a larger number of helicopters capable of being used for attack roles.

60 mi-32's (upgraded with israeli weapons and avionics and comparable to the cobra-whisky),there are plans to replace these by a heavy attack helicopter of which india has a requiremt of 80.

200 mi172's each of which can carry and fire 16 anti tank missiles besides carrying rocket pods.(to be replaced in future by the hal 12 ton helicopter ,there are plans to jointly develop these with eurocpter based on the ec725 platform)

around 300 lancers which can be equipped with upto 4 to 8 anti tank missiles besides a light gun(to be replaced by bell407shen or eurocopter fennec,there is an initial requirement for 200 of them ,both these helicopters are capable of scout attack).

300 dhruv's(ordered , but cuurently being inducted at a rate of nearly 50 a year),at least a 100 of these will be wsi (weapons system integrated) capable with the rest being capable of being made wsi capable within a few hours.

the indigenous light combat helicopter being developed from the hal dhruv,this tandem seated helicopter is a dedicated attack helicopter ,being based on the dhruv design,it has a very high degree of commonality with the dhruv,it is in the same performance category as the eurocopter tiger.

these helicopters will provide greater manouverability and more flexible offensive capability.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Helicopters

i believ one advantage that the indian army has over pakistan is that it has a larger number of helicopters capable of being used for attack roles.

60 mi-32's (upgraded with israeli weapons and avionics and comparable to the cobra-whisky),there are plans to replace these by a heavy attack helicopter of which india has a requiremt of 80.

200 mi172's each of which can carry and fire 16 anti tank missiles besides carrying rocket pods.(to be replaced in future by the hal 12 ton helicopter ,there are plans to jointly develop these with eurocpter based on the ec725 platform)

around 300 lancers which can be equipped with upto 4 to 8 anti tank missiles besides a light gun(to be replaced by bell407shen or eurocopter fennec,there is an initial requirement for 200 of them ,both these helicopters are capable of scout attack).

300 dhruv's(ordered , but cuurently being inducted at a rate of nearly 50 a year),at least a 100 of these will be wsi (weapons system integrated) capable with the rest being capable of being made wsi capable within a few hours.

the indigenous light combat helicopter being developed from the hal dhruv,this tandem seated helicopter is a dedicated attack helicopter ,being based on the dhruv design,it has a very high degree of commonality with the dhruv,it is in the same performance category as the eurocopter tiger.

these helicopters will provide greater manouverability and more flexible offensive capability.

AFAIK a Attack Helicopter is only useful or really useable once Air Superiority has been achieved or at least tilting in favour not to mention the AA weapons of the opposing force, although 400 Helo's would really do a good job of tilting the balance.

 

[LordoftheLord]

india might have Quantity but not quality helicopters..
Pakistan Army has a requirement of up to 30 AH-64D Apache Longbow or AH-1Zby 2010, 6 AH-64D are coming soon.
AH-1S (20 in use), AH-1F (30 in use + 20 on order) 20 UH-1 in use and over (60) on order..Mi-8/17 (50), and SA-330J Puma (25)....
india can not penetrate pakistani airspace with helis!! PA air defence has about 5-10,000 hand-held surface-to-air missile..

 

[kams]

Sigh..another pissing contest.:eek

 

[LordoftheLord]

Sigh..another pissing contest.:eek

you might win the "pissing contest" after all you guys do do...... oh well i guess thats enough..

 

[kams]

No thanks dude not intrested in any contests. If you want to debate on doctrines, I am game.

 

[sidewinder2006]

india might have Quantity but not quality helicopters..
Pakistan Army has a requirement of up to 30 AH-64D Apache Longbow or AH-1Zby 2010, 6 AH-64D are coming soon.
AH-1S (20 in use), AH-1F (30 in use + 20 on order) 20 UH-1 in use and over (60) on order..Mi-8/17 (50), and SA-330J Puma (25)....
india can not penetrate pakistani airspace with helis!! PA air defence has about 5-10,000 hand-held surface-to-air missile..

I simply cant understand one thing with these pakistani guys....why do they always think that India acquires all and everything to attack pakistan....penetrate pak airspace and so on ??????????????

Guys just relax...India is a peace loving country..and we like to see our dence forces as a defenive force only.

And comimg back to the topic..do u guys really think 50 Mi8s and 25 330 js are that good??? (i mean ..to counter 400 indian helos ???)

if u ask me...this is too much of an expectation !!

 

[aaaditya]

india might have Quantity but not quality helicopters..
Pakistan Army has a requirement of up to 30 AH-64D Apache Longbow or AH-1Zby 2010, 6 AH-64D are coming soon.
AH-1S (20 in use), AH-1F (30 in use + 20 on order) 20 UH-1 in use and over (60) on order..Mi-8/17 (50), and SA-330J Puma (25)....
india can not penetrate pakistani airspace with helis!! PA air defence has about 5-10,000 hand-held surface-to-air missile..

i dont think india will use their attack helicopters for entering into pakistan and attacking their battle tanks,india will most likely use their attack helicopters to take out any battle tank which might have entered into the indian terriotery,also as an ecort for its troop landing helicopters and for counter insurgency operations and for scout/border patrol roles,india will use their attack helicopters to penetrate pakistani airspace only if they manage to gain air superiority over the pakistani airspace.

besides hand held sam's are no longer a major threat,after the kargil war indian's equipped all their helicopters with israeli designed missile aproach warners,ecm,eccm and chaff and flare dispenser(indian alh dhruv also has them).

an example of this capability can be seen from this incident.

after india shot down the pakistani atlantis ,two indian army mi17's carried top defence and media personnel to the crash site,during this sortie one of the mi-17's ventured too close to the international border and was fired upon by pakistani soldiers(i believe they fired 2 or 3 shoulder fired sam's,of which one achieve a lock),but the mi17 launched its decoys and managed to avoid all of them and return back safely.

 

[LordoftheLord]

I simply cant understand one thing with these pakistani guys....why do they always think that India acquires all and everything to attack pakistan....penetrate pak airspace and so on ??????????????

Guys just relax...India is a peace loving country..and we like to see our dence forces as a defenive force only.

And comimg back to the topic..do u guys really think 50 Mi8s and 25 330 js are that good??? (i mean ..to counter 400 indian helos ???)

if u ask me...this is too much of an expectation !!

i am telling you from not so peaceful Experience, which india did attack us 47,65,71.... so callin your self defence force, i dont think so.. so again it will be india in the future that will try to snatch something from us again!

mind you, not just 50+25 heilis but also upto 100 UH-1s!! your 400 helos Consists of Durv, a light Utility/transport choper that isnt gona be so effective on the battle field.. those hand-held sams would Seriously gona impose a threat on slow flying meachine!
Now APCs come to this picture, a armed personel carrer that can deploy its troops behind the enemy lines in wich PA has advantage over you.. all deep strike APCs and MBT are to be equiped with anti-tank missile, and hand-held sams!

Mod edit: Take this as a warning guys there's no need for this to degenerate further. Discuss amicably and within the rules and this will stay open. I'm not feeling overly patient at the moment so please take the hint... Cheers. AD.

 

[sidewinder2006]

[ Admin Edit: Wikipedia? Come on! Pak vs India, Greek vs Turkey, Turkey vs Armenia, etc. topics on wikipedia have had their share of vandalism from each of the parties involved. Each group try to EDIT wikipedia to fit their need and historical perspective that favors them. Wikipedia is not a great and authentic source of information when it comes to war, regional conflicts, etc. ]


Any further replies that are intended to flame and are violation of the forum rules may result in deletion of the post, thread being locked and/or that person banned.


Well i deleted my previous post prior to giving links to wikipedia.At first I thought to give Bharat Rakshak links that then I thought it would be biased and not neutral.So i gave links to wikipedia.Didnt know that wikipedia links are not credible...Really sorry for that !

 

[tomahawk6]

It would be interesting for India to deploy several brigades in eastern Afghanistan to help NATO out.