JASDF Mix?

[Crusader2000]

"[A]t least a good decade" is probably true for F-35, but certainly not Typhoon, which could begin deliveries rather soon. The lines are running at less than capacity, component manufacturers can ramp up production, & some early stop-gap deliveries could be diverted from production slots currently reserved for Italy & maybe the UK. A significant number could be in service within 5 years.

When was the last time that Japan purchased a new fighter totally off the shelf???

 

[StevoJH]

When was the last time that Japan purchased a new fighter totally off the shelf???

The first F-15J's were produced in the US, I'm guessing they were off the shelf. Remember that you can build the first aircraft off the shelf and slowly add your own avionics to later aircraft in the production run as it goes on, with the original aircraft taken to the same standard as they go in for deep maintenance.

And last time I checked, Israel was told they could not integrate their own avionics into the F-35.

 

[Crusader2000]

The first F-15J's were produced in the US, I'm guessing they were off the shelf. Remember that you can build the first aircraft off the shelf and slowly add your own avionics to later aircraft in the production run as it goes on, with the original aircraft taken to the same standard as they go in for deep maintenance.

And last time I checked, Israel was told they could not integrate their own avionics into the F-35.

Only a handful of JASDF F-15's were produced in the US. With the vast majority be built under license in Japan. With only 2 Single Seat F-15J's to be constructed in St Louis. Which, were followed some years later by 12 Two Seat F-15DJ's. Japan itself produced something like 223 Eagles under license..............

Note: Before the Japanese acquired the rights to build F-15 Eagles. It also produced F-86's and F-104's under license.

BTW You are mistaken about Israel being able to integrate their own avionics into the F-35.

 

[StevoJH]

Only a handful of JASDF F-15's were produced in the US. With the vast majority be built under license in Japan. With only 2 Single Seat F-15J's to be constructed in St Louis. Which, were followed some years later by 12 Two Seat F-15DJ's. Japan itself produced something like 223 Eagles under license..............

Straight from wikipedia, not that it matters. The point is that we are saying they can order Typhoons of the european production line until they get their own production line up and running. My point was that once they got their own production line up and running, they can slowly increase the Japanese content of the aircraft as production progresses, and then backfit those modifications to the earlier examples.

BTW You are mistaken about Israel being able to integrate their own avionics into the F-35.

Links or it didn't happen.

 

[Waylander]

How is the Typhoon totally of the shelf?
As others here said, Japan might very well get early slots of the member countries to begin construction of some early birds while they get their own line online.
Just like they did with the F-15 and just like many other countries do it when they procure large numbers of foreign fighters but want to build them on their own country.
This enables the Typhoon to enter service much earlier than any JSF version ever gets.

And with a lot more integrated Japanese technology in it as I also don't think that anyone outside the JSF member states is allowed to put ones own tech into the Jet.

I think nobody here stated that the F-35 can't be used in the air defense role.
But it just comes too late to replace the Phantoms.

The F-2, while being a nearly indigenious design is just not that good of a fighter.
AFAIK it isn't even able to employ active BVR missiles but just Sparrows and AAM-4s.
It was designed as a replacement for the F-1 and because of this only offers limited air defense capabilities.

The Phantoms in Japanese service first hadn't any air to ground capabilities whatsoever and just got them after some upgrades during their service life.
Their main task is still clearly air defense with strike being a secondary role.
Just contrary to the F-2.

And you stated that the thread by foreign air forces in the region is rising. Adding more F-2s to the fleet wouldn't enhance the air defense capabilities of the JASDF as much as other more air to air optimized fighters would.
Not that a Typhoon couldn't hit alot of ground targets.
There are enough air to ground munitions already integrated or are being integrated right now.

 

[longbow]

"[A]t least a good decade" is probably true for F-35, but certainly not Typhoon, which could begin deliveries rather soon. The lines are running at less than capacity, component manufacturers can ramp up production, & some early stop-gap deliveries could be diverted from production slots currently reserved for Italy & maybe the UK. A significant number could be in service within 5 years.

Standard T2 or T3's probably could be delivered quite soon, but one of the arguments put forward in favor of the EF is that they could put their own stuff in the airframe. All this stuff still has to be developed and integrated. So, imho if the EF was selected, it would still take some five years to get to IOC.


Edit: Note to self - Read the ENTIRE thread before posting - Yes, retrofitting domestic stuff could be done

 

[swerve]

Looks as if you answered yourself.

Yes, agreed: a full-spec Japanese-customised Typhoon* would take several (IMO at least 5) years to enter service, but an interim capability of standard production Typhoons could be delivered earlier & later retrofitted to the local standard, or even some T1s delivered on loan pending delivery of Japanese-built own-spec aircraft. I'm not saying that Japan would choose either, but they're both possible.

*Such an apt name, don't you think?

 

[Crusader2000]

[

QUOTE=StevoJH;182933]Straight from wikipedia, not that it matters. The point is that we are saying they can order Typhoons of the european production line until they get their own production line up and running. My point was that once they got their own production line up and running, they can slowly increase the Japanese content of the aircraft as production progresses, and then backfit those modifications to the earlier examples.

The point is Japan will never purchase large numbers of Typhoons directly from Europe. As they would demand to build the vast majority under license in Japan. Which, they've done with every preceding fighter since the 1950's.

What they can and what they will do are two very different things.

Links or it didn't happen.

[/QUOTE]
Quote:

Israel
In 2003, Israel signed a formal letter of agreement, worth almost $20 million, to join the System Development and Demonstration (SDD) effort for the F-35 as a "security cooperation participant" (SCP).[144] The Israeli Air Force (IAF) stated in 2006 that the F-35 is a key part of IAF's recapitalization plans, and that Israel intends to buy over 100 F-35A fighters at an estimated cost of over $5 billion to replace their F-16s over time.[145] Israel was reinstated as a partner in the development of the F-35 on 31 July 2006, after Israeli participation was put on hold following the Chinese arms deal crisis.[146]

On 16 November 2006, Yaakov Katz, of The Jerusalem Post reported that if no jet fighters were delivered to Israel between the last batch of F-16s in 2007 and the first F-35s in 2014 then the Israeli air force would decline in numbers as older fighters wore out and were retired.[147]

On 3 September 2007, IDF Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi announced the purchase of a squadron of F-35s which Israel will begin receiving in 2014. However, U.S. defense officials later agreed to allow Israel to receive the fighters as early as 2012.[148] The price of each F-35 is expected to reach $70–80 million.[149]

The Jerusalem Post reports that the Pentagon has agreed to supply the F-35A variant to Israel as early as 2012, instead of in 2014 or 2015. This would make Israel one of the first nations to receive the aircraft, and very possibly the first foreign nation. Previous objections to Israel’s installation of its own technology in the F-35 – as it has done with every US fighter it has received – were also reportedly overcome. At present, the only Israeli technology in the standard version will be the JSF HMDS helmet-mounted display system, designed in cooperation with Elbit Systems. Israel also asked to manufacture F-35 aircraft locally at a 1:2 ratio, but the reports did not indicate whether that request was granted.[150] On 30 September 2008, the US DoD reported that Israel has requested to purchase 25 F-35As with options to buy up to 50 F-35As or F-35Bs.[151][152]

On 24 June 2009, The Jerusalem Post reported that an understanding had been reached on "the main basic issues". These include Israeli electronics and the ability to maintain the aircraft independently and that deliveries could start as early as 2014.[153]

On 10 July 2009, the Israeli Air Force submitted an official Letter of Request (LOR) to the Pentagon to purchase its first squadron of 25 F-35As.

 

[Crusader2000]

Looks as if you answered yourself.

Yes, agreed: a full-spec Japanese-customised Typhoon* would take several (IMO at least 5) years to enter service, but an interim capability of standard production Typhoons could be delivered earlier & later retrofitted to the local standard, or even some T1s delivered on loan pending delivery of Japanese-built own-spec aircraft. I'm not saying that Japan would choose either, but they're both possible.

*Such an apt name, don't you think?

We are not going to see Japanese Typhoons so the point is totally moot in my opinion.

 

[swerve]

The point is Japan will never purchase large numbers of Typhoons directly from Europe. As they would demand to build the vast majority under license in Japan. Which, they've done with every preceding fighter since the 1950's..

You're arguing against something which hasn't been proposed. What Stevo described, very clearly, is exactly what Japan has done in the past, i.e. get initial deliveries straight off a foreign production line while gearing up for domestic production. Yes, they will want to build most of them in Japan - and that's exactly what he described.

You are in effect responding to someone saying "The sky is blue" by saying "No, you're completely wrong: it's blue!".

 

[turin]

We are not going to see Japanese Typhoons so the point is totally moot in my opinion.

Good to know. I will ring the Japanese government asap and inform them about your decision.

In fact, the very comprehensive package of local production and future cooperative development of the whole program is one of the strongest points about the possibility to buy Typhoons. Your point about that has no ground in reality.

 

[Crusader2000]

You're arguing against something which hasn't been proposed. What Stevo described, very clearly, is exactly what Japan has done in the past, i.e. get initial deliveries straight off a foreign production line while gearing up for domestic production. Yes, they will want to build most of them in Japan - and that's exactly what he described.

You are in effect responding to someone saying "The sky is blue" by saying "No, you're completely wrong: it's blue!".

Steve described that Japan could get Typhoons off the current production line until Japan could get its own up and running? Well, in the most recent case. Japan initially received just "two" Single Seat F-15CJ's from American Production Line. (i.e. St. Louis) Which, has been the trend over the last few decades.


So, this whole point that Japan could get Typhoons with in 5 years is totally unsupported. As Japan would require the "vast majority" of its new fighter be built domestically. Plus, the fact they would also require a sizable Japanese Content. Which, would take considerable time to develop and incorporate.


In short any Japanese Typhoon would be a good decade or more off. Which, doesn't even touch on the fact that its extremely unlikely that Japan would select the type in the first place. (IMO)

 

[Crusader2000]

Good to know. I will ring the Japanese government asap and inform them about your decision.

In fact, the very comprehensive package of local production and future cooperative development of the whole program is one of the strongest points about the possibility to buy Typhoons. Your point about that has no ground in reality.

Well, your sarcasm is hardly called for. (and in poor taste)


The JASDF has a long history of purchasing US Equipment (i.e. Fighters) and producing it under license domestically. Further, said equipment has always included a fair amount of Japanese Content.

So, in fact my whole point is based in fact and thats the reality.2


None of which is to say the Typhoon. Isn't a excellent and extremely good fighter. Just that its unlikely to be purchased by the Japnese for a whole list of reason. Plus, the fact that even if it was. Its could never be available in "5 YEARS".

 

[Scorpion82]

Well, your sarcasm is hardly called for. (and in poor taste)


The JASDF has a long history of purchasing US Equipment (i.e. Fighters) and producing it under license domestically. Further, said equipment has always included a fair amount of Japanese Content.

So, in fact my whole point is based in fact and thats the reality.2


None of which is to say the Typhoon. Isn't a excellent and extremely good fighter. Just that its unlikely to be purchased by the Japnese for a whole list of reason. Plus, the fact that even if it was. Its could never be available in "5 YEARS".

Crusader you are right that the Japanese have ever bought US fighters since WW II was over. But with a new government in power and the recent purchase of european helicopters there might be shift in thinking of the Japanese. Nothing is for sure, but the possiblity is there. And while you argue against the Typhoon, the F-35 won't provide the industrial benefits at all and won'T be available at any reasonable timeframe as well. And while the Japanese are offered to use indigeous equipment it doesn't mean they will make excessive use of this ability.

And what has the intended israeli purchase to do with the japanese situation?

 

[Crusader2000]

Crusader you are right that the Japanese have ever bought US fighters since WW II was over. But with a new government in power and the recent purchase of european helicopters there might be shift in thinking of the Japanese. Nothing is for sure, but the possiblity is there. And while you argue against the Typhoon, the F-35 won't provide the industrial benefits at all and won'T be available at any reasonable timeframe as well. And while the Japanese are offered to use indigeous equipment it doesn't mean they will make excessive use of this ability.

I don't think purchasing a small number of Helicopters from Europe. Will drastically changing the situation.

And what has the intended israeli purchase to do with the japanese situation?

Because another member said the US wouldn't allow the Japanese to add their equipment to the F-35.



Regardless, we will see when Japan makes its selections.

 

[swerve]

Steve described that Japan could get Typhoons off the current production line until Japan could get its own up and running? Well, in the most recent case. Japan initially received just "two" Single Seat F-15CJ's from American Production Line. (i.e. St. Louis) Which, has been the trend over the last few decades.

So, this whole point that Japan could get Typhoons with in 5 years is totally unsupported. As Japan would require the "vast majority" of its new fighter be built domestically. Plus, the fact they would also require a sizable Japanese Content. Which, would take considerable time to develop and incorporate.

In short any Japanese Typhoon would be a good decade or more off. Which, doesn't even touch on the fact that its extremely unlikely that Japan would select the type in the first place. (IMO)

All these points have been addressed, & refuted. You have picked one point, partly addressed it, & then carried on repeating your previous claims as if nothing had been said in response to them.

Will you address any of these points, all of which have previously been made?

1) Japan can, if it wishes, get T1 Typhoons on lease pending delivery of Japanese-built Typhoons. This would enable rapid delivery. The T1 Typhoons would be returned. This satisfies Japans requirement for local production.

2) Japan can, if it wishes, get T2 Typhoons delivered from Europe from production slots currently assigned to Italy or other consortium members, pending delivery of Japanese-built Typhoons. The European-built Typhoons could be retrofitted with Japanese equipment. Due to a higher proportion of Japanese subsystems (e.g. a Japanese AESA radar), the total Japanese content should exceed that of the licence-built Typhoons, despite a larger number being imported directly. This satisfies Japans requirement for local production.

3) Even with neither of the above, Japan should be able to have Typhoon coming off a local production line, customised to Japanese requirements, within 5 years. Required customisation consists of the incorporation of Japanese susbsystems, in particular avionics. Integration of these can be conducted in parallel with setting up production, with little risk.

Compare the F-35:
1) US resistance to local variants is so strong that even the only Tier 1 JSF partner has had a fierce dispute with the USA on the minor point of integrating its own weapons. The prospects for a version with substantial Japanese content therefore appear extremely poor: Japan is not even a JSF partner.

2) There are no in-service F-35s for Japan to borrow.

3) There are no production slots available for early delivery of F-35 to Japan.

4) Even a Tier 2 partner has been strongly discouraged from anything other than an assembly & check line, rather than the full production line Japan seeks. The prospects for the degree of local production sought by Japan therefore seem poor: Japan is not even a JSF partner.

5) If consent is given for a Japanese production line, it will not be possible to set it up until some years after a Typhoon production line could be delivering aircraft to the JASDF. Typhoon production is in full swing: JSF is still in development, with production so far consisting of pre-series development & test aircraft (despite labels to the contrary) only.

6) The USA says that due to the heavily integrated nature of the F-35, incorporation of non-standard systems, such as sought by Israel, is not practical. What does this tell us about the likelihood of a Japanese customised version?

7) The USA has had a prolonged disagreement with the only Tier 1 JSF partner over that partner being allowed to perform all its own F-35 maintenance. What does that say about the likelihood of full production being allowed in Japan: Japan is not even a JSF partner.

Note that your arguments against a Typhoon purchase all apply at least as strongly to an F-35 purchase. I imagine that negotiations over how or if Japanese content could be introduced would be neither easy nor quick. The Typhoon partners, on the other hand, have already expressed a willingness to facilitate any & every modification Japan may choose to make.

BTW, an interim F-2 purchase would need a quick decision. The 12th & last annual contract to LM for components was signed in April 2008, with deliveries beginning September 2008. Long lead items are going out of production as we write . . .
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2008/040808ae_f2mitsubishi.html

 

[SpudmanWP]

Compare the F-35:

3) There are no production slots available for early delivery of F-35 to Japan.

Most seem to forget that the original plan was to produce up to 250 F-35s per year. A few years back, the US pared that back to 230 and stretched out the production to save money. But, the line can still produce 250 a year if LM can get the orders.

There is plenty of room for Japan to order early F-35s if it wants to.

 

[Crusader2000]

All these points have been addressed, & refuted. You have picked one point, partly addressed it, & then carried on repeating your previous claims as if nothing had been said in response to them.

Will you address any of these points, all of which have previously been made?

1) Japan can, if it wishes, get T1 Typhoons on lease pending delivery of Japanese-built Typhoons. This would enable rapid delivery. The T1 Typhoons would be returned. This satisfies Japans requirement for local production.

2) Japan can, if it wishes, get T2 Typhoons delivered from Europe from production slots currently assigned to Italy or other consortium members, pending delivery of Japanese-built Typhoons. The European-built Typhoons could be retrofitted with Japanese equipment. Due to a higher proportion of Japanese subsystems (e.g. a Japanese AESA radar), the total Japanese content should exceed that of the licence-built Typhoons, despite a larger number being imported directly. This satisfies Japans requirement for local production.

3) Even with neither of the above, Japan should be able to have Typhoon coming off a local production line, customised to Japanese requirements, within 5 years. Required customisation consists of the incorporation of Japanese susbsystems, in particular avionics. Integration of these can be conducted in parallel with setting up production, with little risk.

Compare the F-35:
1) US resistance to local variants is so strong that even the only Tier 1 JSF partner has had a fierce dispute with the USA on the minor point of integrating its own weapons. The prospects for a version with substantial Japanese content therefore appear extremely poor: Japan is not even a JSF partner.

2) There are no in-service F-35s for Japan to borrow.

3) There are no production slots available for early delivery of F-35 to Japan.

4) Even a Tier 2 partner has been strongly discouraged from anything other than an assembly & check line, rather than the full production line Japan seeks. The prospects for the degree of local production sought by Japan therefore seem poor: Japan is not even a JSF partner.

5) If consent is given for a Japanese production line, it will not be possible to set it up until some years after a Typhoon production line could be delivering aircraft to the JASDF. Typhoon production is in full swing: JSF is still in development, with production so far consisting of pre-series development & test aircraft (despite labels to the contrary) only.

6) The USA says that due to the heavily integrated nature of the F-35, incorporation of non-standard systems, such as sought by Israel, is not practical. What does this tell us about the likelihood of a Japanese customised version?

7) The USA has had a prolonged disagreement with the only Tier 1 JSF partner over that partner being allowed to perform all its own F-35 maintenance. What does that say about the likelihood of full production being allowed in Japan: Japan is not even a JSF partner.

Note that your arguments against a Typhoon purchase all apply at least as strongly to an F-35 purchase. I imagine that negotiations over how or if Japanese content could be introduced would be neither easy nor quick. The Typhoon partners, on the other hand, have already expressed a willingness to facilitate any & every modification Japan may choose to make.

BTW, an interim F-2 purchase would need a quick decision. The 12th & last annual contract to LM for components was signed in April 2008, with deliveries beginning September 2008. Long lead items are going out of production as we write . . .
LOCKHEED MARTIN RECEIVES TWELFTH ANNUAL CONTRACT FOR F-2 COMPONENT WORK | Lockheed Martin

Sorry, we've seen nothing to suggest that Japan is seriously interested in the Typhoon. Nor, that such arrangement as you described would be acceptable even if it was. As a matter of fact the History of Japanese Fighter Procurement and its Strategic Alliance with the United States. Makes purchasing the "Typhoon" as highly unlikely.


So, until I see an official order for Typhoons from Japan. I personally consider the possibility as remote at best.


Again in MY OPINION.

 

[Crusader2000]

Most seem to forget that the original plan was to produce up to 250 F-35s per year. A few years back, the US pared that back to 230 and stretched out the production to save money. But, the line can still produce 250 a year if LM can get the orders.

There is plenty of room for Japan to order early F-35s if it wants to.

Really. I don't see any other options than the F-35 for Japan. As its the only aircraft currently available that is capable of countering expected Future Chinese and Russian Threats. Plus, the fact that Japan has a strong Strategic Interest in buying "American".

 

[swerve]

Most seem to forget that the original plan was to produce up to 250 F-35s per year. A few years back, the US pared that back to 230 and stretched out the production to save money. But, the line can still produce 250 a year if LM can get the orders.

There is plenty of room for Japan to order early F-35s if it wants to.

But "early" in F-35 production is late compared to possible Typhoon deliveries (that line is planned to hit 230 per year when?), & does not meet the Japanese requirement for local production.