Shipwreck SSMs and 63cm torpedoes.Scorpius said:does anything poses a threat to the mighty United States navy?
contedicavour said:Yes, right, Shipwreck SS-N-19s and torpedoes.
I would add the real threat there is asymmetrical warfare, first of all mines. The USN is curiously underequipped when it comes to mine counter-measures. Most large European navies have more modern MCM ships than the USN (which even keeps its own in naval reserve, if I recall correctly). I remember that a USN LPH (of the old Iwo Jima class) was badly damaged by a mine in the first Gulf war in '91.
After mines, the other real risk is a repetition of what happened in Yemen against a USN Burke-class destroyer : small fast boats loaded with high explosives hitting the side of the ship and making a big hole in it. In the midst of the hectic naval traffic in the Gulf noticing small fast boats that hardly are noticeable on radars isn't easy.
To go back to the TU-22Ms, the best tactic would be to follow a civilian airliner flying above the Persian Gulf and to launch while still being hidden beneath it. After the USN cruiser Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian airliner by mistake in the '90s, the Navy will definitively hesitate before shooting an SM-2 missile to a target 100km away. That's enough range for a ASM shot.
Let's hope the USN is preparing for these scenarios and that anyway it won't come down to this...
cheers
That would be quite a scenario for Clancy-type booksPursuit Curve said:Just a correction, the Vincennes incident was in the Eighties. As far as the TU-22M, its strength is in stand off missile attack, that being said it would have to launch outside of the outer engagement zone of a USN Carrier battle groups missile defense and not be detected by the ever present CAP.
If the combat zone is the Persian Gulf, the TU 22M could prosecute its attack from within Iranian Airspace. That is if their operational bases have not been neutralised.
The TU 22M is in my opinion overated as a strike platform, I remember that it was given strategic strike status by a budget driven pentagon and only the TU 95 and the Blackjack fit into the strategic platform category. The TU 22M is a threat to Israel and other countries in the Gulf Region, again in a perfect situation with proper crews, tactics and weapons it could inflict damage, but I believe that it would be a one time strike, because the overwhelming counterstrike would see the end of any TU 22M equipped base. The other TU, the Blinder, was used by the Iraqi Air Force in its war against Iran, and did not achieve much, and that was with support and trainig by the Soviets.
Since the Vinciennces incident there have been great strides made with the AEGIS radar systems and also cruise missile defences, RAM and inproved Standard missile systems and control.
It is a pity that theer aren't anymore F 14 tomcats left in service (USN), it would be a classic encounter, AIM 54's versus Soviet era anti ship missiles!
Even if they did have Kitchen ASMs they would have to launch them over water for a stand-off attack. If they launched them anywhere more than 5-10 miles from the coast they would hit the mountains that elavate from 3k-7k ft. Once they got that close to the water they would be toast.Pursuit Curve said:Just a correction, the Vincennes incident was in the Eighties. As far as the TU-22M, its strength is in stand off missile attack, that being said it would have to launch outside of the outer engagement zone of a USN Carrier battle groups missile defense and not be detected by the ever present CAP.
If the combat zone is the Persian Gulf, the TU 22M could prosecute its attack from within Iranian Airspace. That is if their operational bases have not been neutralised.
The TU 22M is in my opinion overated as a strike platform, I remember that it was given strategic strike status by a budget driven pentagon and only the TU 95 and the Blackjack fit into the strategic platform category. The TU 22M is a threat to Israel and other countries in the Gulf Region, again in a perfect situation with proper crews, tactics and weapons it could inflict damage, but I believe that it would be a one time strike, because the overwhelming counterstrike would see the end of any TU 22M equipped base. The other TU, the Blinder, was used by the Iraqi Air Force in its war against Iran, and did not achieve much, and that was with support and trainig by the Soviets.
Since the Vinciennces incident there have been great strides made with the AEGIS radar systems and also cruise missile defences, RAM and inproved Standard missile systems and control.
It is a pity that theer aren't anymore F 14 tomcats left in service (USN), it would be a classic encounter, AIM 54's versus Soviet era anti ship missiles!
Just the fact that it is so full of such ships means a Kitchen ASM attack woud hit those other targets before the carrier if they were in b/w it and the CBG.contedicavour said:The Persian Gulf is so small and so filled up with oilers, merchant ships, planes of all sizes, that it could be a real temptation
cheers
Ah-ha good point.Big-E said:Just the fact that it is so full of such ships means a Kitchen ASM attack woud hit those other targets before the carrier if they were in b/w it and the CBG.
So that would only leave a direct suicidal conventional attack with iron bombs. You are right of course, the Kitchen Missile profile is designed for over water useage, unless of course the iranians have modified the Harpoons they had in the eighties and designed a whole new gneeration of anti ship cruise missiles, in which case they would not need a backfire to launch, just use the shore based, but vulnerable batteries.Big-E said:Just the fact that it is so full of such ships means a Kitchen ASM attack woud hit those other targets before the carrier if they were in b/w it and the CBG.
This is a threat of course only if the Iranians get the first shots in, the retaliation (Conventional) would be overwhelming. I am no naval warfare expert, but the Persian gulf still seems to be a large area with some choke points, also, I think that alot of US airpower would be land based with the organic SAM defense and other counter measures. 15 cruise missiles, which isn't a big stockpile to go to war with, would not be a desicive system. Is the XM-55 configured for Blue Ocean engagements or litoral areas? Can it navigate tight areas and also can it be launched from overland and transition to sea modes easily? And would a USN Carrier Battle Group obligilligly sail with range of SSM Missile batteries?Black Legion said:One other question, could those Iranian XM-55 cruise missiles they bought from Ukraine be used against US carrier gruop in the gulf, I think the Iranians have 15 of those missiles which are quite good.....