Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion
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- The russians have leased a nuke to india before - precedent is set
- The russians will lease a nuke because it's illegal to sell one. nukes must be built in the host country
- the indians are looking more and more at western technology - and its been increasingly so since 1989 - guess who'd like to protect their export market - esp in the current economic climate - and especially since they mistrust the chinese to buy any more platforms and not harvest whatever tech is available?
what's "big time" when any of the previous is vividly apparent?
It would be great to see the big picture on the ex-Gorshkov deal as well as the details. There could be some offsets or even something tied to the Nerpa.
yasin_khan
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Russia To Lease Sub to India Despite Fatal Accident
NEW DELHI - Moscow has told New Delhi that it remains committed to leasing a nuclear submarine to the Indian Navy despite the Nov. 8 accident that killed 20 crew members aboard a Russian nuclear sub, say Indian Defence Ministry sources.
The Akula-2 nuclear-powered attack submarine, the Nerpa, which is being built by Russia for the Indian Navy, was on sea trials off the Sea of Japan Nov. 8 when 20 personnel were killed in an accident reportedly involving activation of the submarine's fire-fighting system.
However, the sea trials of the submarine have been temporarily halted, said sources. The Indian Defence Ministry has already asked the Russian yard building the submarine to extend the trials.
The Indian Navy is acquiring the Nerpa in the run-up to its own secretive, classified nuclear submarine Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV) under construction. The crew trained on the leased Nerpa would eventually take over the indigenous ATV, expected to be inducted by 2010-11.
The nuclear submarines will give India the third leg of its nuclear triad by acquiring submarine-launched nuclear capable missiles.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3841306&c=SEA&s=ASI
NEW DELHI - Moscow has told New Delhi that it remains committed to leasing a nuclear submarine to the Indian Navy despite the Nov. 8 accident that killed 20 crew members aboard a Russian nuclear sub, say Indian Defence Ministry sources.
The Akula-2 nuclear-powered attack submarine, the Nerpa, which is being built by Russia for the Indian Navy, was on sea trials off the Sea of Japan Nov. 8 when 20 personnel were killed in an accident reportedly involving activation of the submarine's fire-fighting system.
However, the sea trials of the submarine have been temporarily halted, said sources. The Indian Defence Ministry has already asked the Russian yard building the submarine to extend the trials.
The Indian Navy is acquiring the Nerpa in the run-up to its own secretive, classified nuclear submarine Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV) under construction. The crew trained on the leased Nerpa would eventually take over the indigenous ATV, expected to be inducted by 2010-11.
The nuclear submarines will give India the third leg of its nuclear triad by acquiring submarine-launched nuclear capable missiles.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3841306&c=SEA&s=ASI
yasin_khan
New Member
These are Akula-2 nuclear-powered attack submarine they are not carlie class
IMHO, Both USA & Russia will help India (which will play them off each other to get maximum advantage) to be a superpower. "Balance of power" considerations are as valid now as during the ascent of the British Empire.
India, Russia ink nuclear deal
It's not just the USA and Russia. . . You must also include France, Sweden, Germany, Italy, Spain, Israel and everywhere else there are defense contractors. India is willing spend Billions on defense procurement, naturally everyone wants a piece of that pie.
Russia still has the largest share of Indian market. When You look back at 1989. IAF had only MIG-29 and Mirage-2000 as front line Aircraft. Now Front line aircraft is Su-30MKI. MIG-29 is being upgraded (with license of engines)but Mirage-2000 upgrade is languishing. 150 MIG-21Bison has been upgraded but LCA is still under development.(Western Components). Arjun is on Trial basis (Western Engine) But T-90 has already been inducted.
Smerch has been inducted but Bofors are suspended. 80 MI-17V5 has moved ahead but 197 light chopper contract is languishing.
So Russia has increased its share with time. Similar is case with Missiles. There is no Western equivalent of R-77/R-73 in IAF. It is the quantitis that matters. I have yet to see large quantities of Tri service systems from West in Indian armed forces. Even Phalcon system is on IL-76 platform (PS-90A engines and reinforced airframe certified for it).
About future. there is 5th generation combat aircraft and MTA transport plane. ships/missiles for Navy/Space expoloration/manned space flight.
It is just India has more money to spend compared to 1980s so it feels that they are diversifiing but reality is different.
If its Russia (east) vs. the rest of the world (as west), for Russia the forward is to offer joint development (MTA, Brahmos-2, PAK-FA).
Similar examples of joint development program with other nations exist, Israel with the Barak-2 (naval and surface based) SAM systems, France with another SAM system, etc. etc.
Historically during the build up to the 71 situation and after it Soviets were the only choice available as the planes were affordable and they were willing to provide the weapons, which leads to the 90s and the logistics question (which would be one of the prime reason for the T-90 over Arjun that you mentioned).
There is nothing joint development about PAK-FA/MTA/Brahmos. Joint development means that u bring some thing which otherside cannot make it. Ruaf PAK-FA/Yakhont is 100% Russian made. It is just for public consumption in India so funds can be allocated so they called it joint.
If India can afford Jaquar/Mirage 2000 in early 80s where economic size was way small than it can surely afford EF/Rafale/JSF for 21st century.
???
Ok now i am really confused. What do they mean by "imported design"...does it mean licence production...or someting else.
Also im not sure if ay nation other than france and russia will be willing to provide such a cutting edge design to India.
It gives hint about the U.S.A but im not sure how enthusiatic the U.S.A will be to provide such a technology ( im presuming ththat these subs will be more advanced than the scorpenes ).
and Does Israel even produce submarine sub systems??
Tenders for Six More Diesel Electric Submarines for Indian Navy in 2009
Dated 11/12/2008
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India is planning to issue a Request for Proposals for construction of six new diesel-electric submarines in India by the middle of next year.
"The issuance of RFP for the submarines under P-75 (I) is envisaged in mid-2009," Defence Minister A K Antony said while replying to a question in the Rajya Sabha yesterday.
Antony said the new submarines would be built indigenously on an imported design and the partners would be chosen on a multi-vendor basis.
"The submarines will be built on an imported design with an overseas collaborator to be selected on multi-vendor basis," he said.
Commenting on the measures taken by the government to ensure on-schedule delivery of imported weapon systems, the Minister said: "Necessary provisions are included in contracts to ensure that defence equipments are received as per agreed delivery schedule and negotiated price and other contractual term and conditions." He said there was a clause in the contract regarding levy of Liquidated Damages (LD) in case of delay in delivery of equipment.
Replying to another question, the minister said Russia, United States, United Kingdom, France, Germany and Israel were the major exporters of military hardware to India.
He said the import option for procuring defence equipment was exercised when it became necessary to procure items with in definite time frame on operational grounds to bridge the capability gap and when the equipment could not be procured indigenously.
Ok now i am really confused. What do they mean by "imported design"...does it mean licence production...or someting else.
Also im not sure if ay nation other than france and russia will be willing to provide such a cutting edge design to India.
It gives hint about the U.S.A but im not sure how enthusiatic the U.S.A will be to provide such a technology ( im presuming ththat these subs will be more advanced than the scorpenes ).
and Does Israel even produce submarine sub systems??
Tenders for Six More Diesel Electric Submarines for Indian Navy in 2009
Dated 11/12/2008
Printer Friendly Subscribe
India is planning to issue a Request for Proposals for construction of six new diesel-electric submarines in India by the middle of next year.
"The issuance of RFP for the submarines under P-75 (I) is envisaged in mid-2009," Defence Minister A K Antony said while replying to a question in the Rajya Sabha yesterday.
Antony said the new submarines would be built indigenously on an imported design and the partners would be chosen on a multi-vendor basis.
"The submarines will be built on an imported design with an overseas collaborator to be selected on multi-vendor basis," he said.
Commenting on the measures taken by the government to ensure on-schedule delivery of imported weapon systems, the Minister said: "Necessary provisions are included in contracts to ensure that defence equipments are received as per agreed delivery schedule and negotiated price and other contractual term and conditions." He said there was a clause in the contract regarding levy of Liquidated Damages (LD) in case of delay in delivery of equipment.
Replying to another question, the minister said Russia, United States, United Kingdom, France, Germany and Israel were the major exporters of military hardware to India.
He said the import option for procuring defence equipment was exercised when it became necessary to procure items with in definite time frame on operational grounds to bridge the capability gap and when the equipment could not be procured indigenously.
No it's not that simple - and it is a joint development..
The Russians are signatorys to the MTCR - as such they could not sell India any missile that had a range over 300km's. Hence the Yakhont was sold as a delimited model sub 300km to avoid the MTCR caveats.
It was sold as a co-operative weapons system that was delimted on range and minus the Glonass guidance system due to Russian concerns about India having access (at that time)
Because the missile is now "co-operative" and regarded as a indigenous due to being developed at a guidance level etc for Indian conditions, the it means that Russia and India are technically not breaching MTCR, it also means that as a locally iterated product, India could technically sell it to non MTCR buyers (although I doubt they would as they are consious of being good international citizens and ended up with this partnership due to international obligations and caveats anyway). It also means that they now have the base technology to go out and extend the range beyond the original MTCR limitations.
The irony of this all is that India is now seeking to include Glonass guidance (as its not a true 7 seas bluewater capability without constellation capability) and they could end up basically having paid for a Yakhont in its fundamental form. Good business for the russians, as they ended up with a customer who paid for the continued development of the Yakhont when they needed the money - and now they have a partner willing to be part of Glonass (when the existing constellation is woefully inadequate (in a blue water 7 seas theatre management context).
The russians have had a win win - the indians have had a win in the sense that they got to improve their own missile technology with an already semi developed missile based on the P800 family.
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well, considering that the Israelis have been working with the Indian navy for the last 5 years on sub launched cruise missile solutions - I'd say yes
There was an image one stage of a Dolphin test firing a missile off of the west coast of Indian with indian sailors and technicians on board - that image was pulled and hasn't been since.
I do know of an Israeli tech who worked on that project - and like all good israelis, he won't "fill in the gaps".
The Israelis have been selling minor capital systems for subs for a few years - they don't advertise their customers though.
I think joint development is just making something, the reasons can be several (capability, economy, laws, tech transfer etc.)
Brahmos has indian parts in it, developed in India as highligted by gf0012-aust.
FGFA according to news reports is already a bit different from PAK-FA (a more customised version, which could include indian parts as the project matures), MTA, BRAHMOS-II (will) have more co development.
60 Mirage-2000, and the jaguar (i dont think it was expensive in 80s money) a excellent bomb truck that has seen a lot of indigenous production.
JSF might be available post 2020, current production Euro & US planes along with Ru planes are participating in a tender and we will know which way that flows as 2012 approaches.
I mean Russia scientific and miliary developments is not dependend on join products with China/India/Iran/France. They usually enter into those projects for cost reasons and expand markets. For projects like Borie/Bulva/Topol-M/PAK-FA/Su-35(Su-27SM2)/Su-34. They did it by themselves because they had no intention of export in beginning.
With Brahmos they have given enough technology that i can easily be modified for longer ranges. I bet airlanhced version will already exceed 300KM. there u goes MTCR.
Can you at least make the effort to read what people have posted before responding with reams of copy and paste to support a non existent argument?
The fact that India has a locally developed iteration to a partnered product means that she can develop whatever enhancements she wants into that system as it's now indigenous to her requirements.
The issue of MTCR breaches is with respect to Russia - thats the fundamental reason for Russians restrictions on the initial Brahmos development. India is not an MTCR signatory and is able to do whatever she elects to do from this point on.
Can you stop posting irrelevant commentary to fill up a post with noise. It's getting very very tiresome.
This is the third time we've had to visit a post because of a report by Members for trolling. Either you stay within the rules or you're going to run out of options. I have warned you before - so this is your second. A third may see you on a short holiday.
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