the new way to go is to get Force multipliers like UAVs effective Asset management tools like AWACs, so current assets whatever there numbers can be effectively allocated for defense, the idea of massing up equipment without effective efficient means of managing such resources is a bad idea, Force multipliers are not only the Platforms that are flown but there technologies involved operators who are given more training and more responsibilities to do more and so that more and more resources can be allocated at improving the services rather then constantly hiring personnel to do one little task.
India Opposes Sale Of F-16s By US To Pak
- Thread starter XEROX
- Start date
Even if PAF cannot obtain those F-16's, they should do fine with the JF-17 available. It is said to have comparable performance to F-16A/B and is much more affordable since Pakistan will be able to manufacture it.
Suppose PAF want a even higher end aircraft there is always the option of J-10A. I don't see the point for Pakistan begging for some F-16 when there are several choice for them.
Suppose PAF want a even higher end aircraft there is always the option of J-10A. I don't see the point for Pakistan begging for some F-16 when there are several choice for them.
the choices are available but introducing a New gen such as J-10 with limited combat record is risky specially with new JF-17. they need proven multi-role Modern AC that are cheap and can do away with the PAF's platform obsolesce prblems for a while. PAF has spent too much on developing an effective Logistical setup,they have committed schools to train there best on these AC, they recently have worked out a comprehensive way to improvise the repairs that they need to carry out on the AC. so they don't really need alot of help when it comes down to repairing any of the Mechanical/electrical part of the AC except the Source code bit where they would have problems if the US Barred access to it. Even the On Bord Avionics is based on the standard Power PC processor and other components so in actuall fact PAF would only be dependant on the US for Source codes which i would imagine would be on the table if F-16 sales ever came up.
My oh my how do the indians get off making pathetic statements like "introduction of such advanced weaponry in south east asia etc etc"
What about the brahmos, nuke subs, aircraft carriers, su-30s, israeli radars needless l go on.
These are not Block60 F16s.
l think the bottom line is that in the hands of the PAF pilots any plane would be more than a match for the indians let alone a decent spec F16. Hence the indians are kicking up such a S...storm over a meagre 18 planes.
ln reality pakistan has no need of these planes as the J10 is far superior to the F16 and the JF17 is just as good and will get better with newer avionics.
All other PAF planes will have BVR capability within 2/5 years independent of american help. (a bigger problem for the IAF than the F16)
lndia should stop whinging like a small child and debate its own purchases if it wants to see a balanced southeast asia.
What about the brahmos, nuke subs, aircraft carriers, su-30s, israeli radars needless l go on.
These are not Block60 F16s.
l think the bottom line is that in the hands of the PAF pilots any plane would be more than a match for the indians let alone a decent spec F16. Hence the indians are kicking up such a S...storm over a meagre 18 planes.
ln reality pakistan has no need of these planes as the J10 is far superior to the F16 and the JF17 is just as good and will get better with newer avionics.
All other PAF planes will have BVR capability within 2/5 years independent of american help. (a bigger problem for the IAF than the F16)
lndia should stop whinging like a small child and debate its own purchases if it wants to see a balanced southeast asia.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Muslim, your argument doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would the PAF be trying so hard for the F-16, if the J-10 and JF-17 ARE superior? It's a hassle they don't need if there are other suitable options that come without the drama of an F-16 acquisition...
Those in PAF responsible for deciding on the force structure of the PAF know how capable these respective jets are. If they are trying to get the F-16's it because of it's capability. Not price, ease of logistical support or a desire to have "different" aircraft types or a "Western" aircraft.
The PAF wants this aircraft very badly, because it is more capable than any other aircraft they are likely to be able to acquire. Simple as that.
Those in PAF responsible for deciding on the force structure of the PAF know how capable these respective jets are. If they are trying to get the F-16's it because of it's capability. Not price, ease of logistical support or a desire to have "different" aircraft types or a "Western" aircraft.
The PAF wants this aircraft very badly, because it is more capable than any other aircraft they are likely to be able to acquire. Simple as that.
aussie its not about F-16 being superior, they both are weapons and the word weapon associated to anything is potentially lethal, how lethal is a matter of debate. How i see it as is that PAF wants F-16 because it sees an opportunity to Strengthen its self tenfold by .purchasing its original planned number of F-16. they manufactured there air Dfence Doctrine based on the original planned number. over the years they have had to live with the numbers they got stuck with. this injection of fresh jet within the original Logistic structure would really be a cheap boost for the Pakistani Air Force. After theyve received there INjection they would have there original planned numbers and then they would be able to focus on pressing matters like blunting the IAF's newly acquired capabilities.
Revival_786
New Member
I agree with adsH 
Aussie Digger: I'm sure the PAF is trying to get advanced F-16s (Block 50 to 60). If it is just getting A/B Version then its probably just to get back up to the original planned number. JF-17 is about as capable as a basic F-16 A/B.
Aussie Digger: I'm sure the PAF is trying to get advanced F-16s (Block 50 to 60). If it is just getting A/B Version then its probably just to get back up to the original planned number. JF-17 is about as capable as a basic F-16 A/B.
I'm not sure I totally agree with you re the F-16 and it's existing logistics footprint. The PAF F-16's are somewhat a different beast from any of the current generation Vipers. There would be minimal that would be shared by current and PAF models. In addition the PAF Logistics stream for their initial tranche would not have been that large - so it's not likely that a huge loggie structure was established - if it was - then it really would be redundant by now.adsH said:
Unless someone in PAF was "asleep at the wheel" - any doctrine hubbed around the F-16 would have been changed fairly quickly.
In real terms, any aircraft acquisition based on the latter Vipers would be a zero start.
Hold onn GF if my memory serves me right PAF is not looking for front end F-16 they would certainly be Buying Excess F-16 in storage and then probably be MLU ing it to what ever they want in there jets. there logistics setup is a mystry for me but ive seen one of there Training facility devoted towards the Vipers it covers an area larger then-the International+cargo terminal, ive only managed to see it from the outside (and the facility is big!!. there were several reports that PAF had managed to attain self sufficiency in repairing just about everything in the current Viper (PAF inventory). theyve started graduating more and more pilots. now i can understand there limited resource would not allow a lavish Facility for Viper repair and overhaul but there training facilities are fully developed (thats one cost PAF would't have to deal with). One reason why PAF has such large Training facilities is because PAF trains an excess amount of pilots for every platform they have. another reason for jumping and grabbing any F-16 they can is becasue they would be able to put these Jets in-use fairly quickly.
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Aussie Digger
Guest
Here's an article on this subject from the November 2004 issue of Airforces Monthly. I'm getting it from the magazine so can't provide a URL, but anyone can go look at the magazine (if available), the article's on page 19.
F-16 Plus One
PAKISTAN is pursuing an advanced fighter acquisition programme that it hopes will include the Lockheed Martin F-16 plus one other fighter for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Already well into discussions with Washington to obtain Mid-Life Upgrade level upgrades for it's existing F-16's, at the show, (IDEAS 2004) Air Chief Marshall Kaleem Saadat of the PAF noted that Pakistan would like 70 more, but so far, Pakistan has only sent a letter of request to the US for 18 more F-16's.
This move conveys some Pakistani confidence of gaining approval, a sure sign of how US-Pakistani relations have improved since the war on terror. Saadat told AFM that the PAF would prefer the Block 52 model and a commensurate weapons package, to include AIM-120 AMRAAM air to air missiles, and JDAM precision-guided munitions. Other sources note that if finances do not allow for additional Block 52's, Pakistan may purchase used F-16's.
-ends-
As you can see guys, PAF clearly prefers F-16's to it's other fighter choices. It will be acquiring JF-17 and possibly another "advanced aircraft" to round out it's fighter forces, but it clearly wants the F-16 to be the mainstay of it's forces. This can only be because of it's capability.
F-16 Plus One
PAKISTAN is pursuing an advanced fighter acquisition programme that it hopes will include the Lockheed Martin F-16 plus one other fighter for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Already well into discussions with Washington to obtain Mid-Life Upgrade level upgrades for it's existing F-16's, at the show, (IDEAS 2004) Air Chief Marshall Kaleem Saadat of the PAF noted that Pakistan would like 70 more, but so far, Pakistan has only sent a letter of request to the US for 18 more F-16's.
This move conveys some Pakistani confidence of gaining approval, a sure sign of how US-Pakistani relations have improved since the war on terror. Saadat told AFM that the PAF would prefer the Block 52 model and a commensurate weapons package, to include AIM-120 AMRAAM air to air missiles, and JDAM precision-guided munitions. Other sources note that if finances do not allow for additional Block 52's, Pakistan may purchase used F-16's.
-ends-
As you can see guys, PAF clearly prefers F-16's to it's other fighter choices. It will be acquiring JF-17 and possibly another "advanced aircraft" to round out it's fighter forces, but it clearly wants the F-16 to be the mainstay of it's forces. This can only be because of it's capability.
If PAF has been machining and producing her own stock of consumables, then that changes the complexion of things. BUT there are very few B's left that aren't cannibalised, and a later model Viper of any iteration has some distinct component changes - hence the logistics and maint footprint will be different.adsH said:
There is some facility of F-16. After all PAF is able to keep its F-16s up with out any assistance. So it is the plat form Known very well by PAF. This makes it the best choice to select. PAF also havea rebuild faactory of Mirages but mirages have high crash rate and also costly as compare to F-16s.
I'd question that due to the following:ashoaib said:
Pakistan has been able to source second hand Mirages from airforces such as rge RAAF to provide spares and working units (ROSE upgrades)
What are the stats on Mirage crashes compared to other platforms (on ratio)? Are they trainee issues or platform issue?
How can the Mirages be more costly when you are buying second hand platforms so as to reduce flying costs? - if anything they are far more cost effective than the F16 due to volume issues. The operational costs go down when you buy more of a given platform.
mysterious
New Member
I think ashoaib has got his facts messed up a little. ROSE Mirages of the PAF are one of the safest jets to fly in my friend. There've only been a handful incidents and even those weren't something that was happening due to a platform problem or anything (just a hiccup or two here and there). :smokingc:
I agree with AD on this one.However when people say that the Thunder is superior to the F-16 they fail to take into account which F-16(the Alphas duh!).All in all with the capabilities projected for it, the Thunder stands at the level of early model charlies and there is a performance gap surely even between those and the block-52s.The block-52 if acquired would go towards the high end of the ORBAT, the MLU'd Alphas(along with the expected J-10s) the medium end and the Thunder,ROSEs and F-7PGs the low end.
what kind of significant changes have occurred in the later versions, i know the Pratt&Whitney engines have been updated that could make PAF work towards updating there Overhaul Facility, Structural Mods could of occurred, I guess you are right GF it has been a while since those A/B rolled out the development cycle would probably be in the later stages.
as an example:adsH said:
harnesses - the singularly most critical part of the plane as it goes through it's development cycle. it effects what modules are available, it effects software, it effects hardware cycles.
ok i purposely left out the Software and Hardware in my question, since everyone knows tech improves every 3 to 6 months, and were talking about a gap of about a decade. what i was interested inn is the physical structural changes. i doubt there are many. I ve always said that Pakistan would be dependent on The US for Source codes Hardware is something that can bought off from just about anywhere!! the JF-17 is being fited with simlar modularized Hardware based on motorola Power PC chips. the software where clever Collision avoidance system AI based sub systems, is where Pakistan would have the most trouble.
which is why I mentioned harnesses. the harness of an early F16A/B is completely different compared to a block 52.adsH said:
to change the harness you physically need to pull the entire plane apart. you cannot just add new hardware modules to an older harness. there are peripheral issues of data buss connections, thermal issues due to increased data traffic, EMF changes, RF changes, even line availability.
it's a seemingly small item - but its a show stopper.