Implications of Scottish Independence

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Might be in their best interests to have Scotland in NATO due to the location, but considering repeated statements from NATO chiefs that Scotland would have to apply to be a member and as is wouldn't turn out well for Scotland considering the nuclear core of NATO after all.

So much of the report relies on half baked ideas, it's unbelievable. But I won't go into them here because it's not the right place to get political.

WRT to defence. I have absolutely zero objection to Scotland getting a reasonable allocation of assets. But this list and the personnel allocations with it? It's ridiculous.

The vast majority of the naval assets are being 'requested' are far higher than the % contribution that Scotland makes to the UK's GDP.

The real kicker, the schoolboy mantra of "I want this, this and this" with no regard to support or training. Where is the funding for Scotland's fast jet force? Are they expecting the UK to cough up?

Severe lack of information about training or supporting the force emphasises the lack of strategic vision shown by the people who wrote it. Not to mention the Army brigade being made up of 3 infantry/marine units, so out of what 5 cap badges they pledged to be protected will be cut or shrunk to a company to perform ceremonial duties? . . .
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
How are they going to sort out the citizenship issues?
Will Scottish born service personnel have to choose citizenship based on where they want to serve?
 

My2Cents

Active Member
considering Scottish taxpayers have contributed £3.7 billion per annum for that military hardware ... if the rest of UK declines our right to that military hardware the Scottish government will be well within it's right to refuse to take on any of the UK national debt as the debt is the Bank of England's and the UKs as we would not be part of the UK we wouldn't have to pay it . We don't want to go down that road we want to be responsible neighbours
England is already worried about not having enough Navy to cover the areas it feels it needs to, just giving up some of them to be friendly may not be acceptable.

And refusing to take on any of the UK national debt over such a small item (relative) would be foolish in the extreme. For openers they could probably block Scotlands admission to the EU and NATO. Probably the UN as well, but thats a small (negative?) loss.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
This whole thread is starting to stink of politics, not blaming anyone as the discussion naturally leads to politics, but this may not be the right place for the discussion.

Kampgruppe, you're relatively new so just FYI please stick to military matters, a discussion over sovereignty issues is bound to get mired in politics so it just isn't appropriate. It's clear you feel strongly about the topic but maybe look for a different forum for discussions of this nature. But besides that feel free to stay here and discuss military topics. Cheers mate.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
This whole thread is starting to stink of politics, not blaming anyone as the discussion naturally leads to politics, but this may not be the right place for the discussion.

Kampgruppe, you're relatively new so just FYI please stick to military matters, a discussion over sovereignty issues is bound to get mired in politics so it just isn't appropriate. It's clear you feel strongly about the topic but maybe look for a different forum for discussions of this nature. But besides that feel free to stay here and discuss military topics. Cheers mate.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, two things, firstly that NATO membership and an anti nuclear stance is not incompatible - Denmark has a pretty much this situation at present with a firm commitment to no nuclear arms on Danish soil but remains as a NATO member.

There are a number of other NATO members with stated objections to nuclear weapons as well so that's not a biggy.

Neither is it impossible for a non-NATO country to collaborate with basing agreements - an independent Scotland, remaining outside of NATO could very easily grant overflight permission or basing. In point of fact, the only country likely to be inconvenienced greatly by a lack of overflight would be the rUK, as it'd mean an awkward detour around to get to some interceptions. Given SNP's apparent commitment to picking up Typhoon and by implication, taking responsibility for their own ADIZ/EEZ etc, that's not a disaster.

We'd just have to talk to each other a bit is all :)

Scotland joining NATO is in fact an irrelevancy - the commitment to do so is a sop to the Scottish population who see NATO membership as being important - it'll make no difference to NATO per se.

In terms of how much kit they want and why, it's heavier on Navy and Air, lighter on ground forces, probably because they've not been at war with their nearest land border in mm..nearly 300 years. That's logical then - they have a large chunk of space next to them with oil and fishing rights that is very economically important to them and a blend of air and sea assets make sense.

The biggest shock on my reading was the suggestion that they wanted shot of Trident "within the life of the parliament" which was a lot more ambitious than earlier statements about "when safe to do so". 5 years would be a major rush and I assume this is being thrown down as a bargaining chip to gain other concessions, ie keeping Sterling etc.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
He also seems to assume that they can get the weapons gratis from the UK. Not likely unless paying with 'other' considerations.
As has been noted, the assets listed were bought with UK money - so long as both parties agree an equitable share of the liabilities along with the assets, the Scots are fully entitled to a chunk of defence kit. How much and what will remain a topic of much debate. One possible sticking point is the SNP's indication they don't want to fund relocation of Trident as they never wanted it and don't find nuclear weapons palatable.

Given that the bulk of the spending to build Coulport arsenal plus the facilities at Faslane occurred in Scotland, I'd argue they're going to have to compromise a bit and take the hit for that relocation at least in some part, either in hard cash, or reducing their take on some kit. The SNP in return are suggesting (quite vigorously) that the cleanup bill is the responsibility of the rUK.

I realise that much of this is political backgrounding but I hope I've covered it in a neutral fashion, purely for the benefit of some non UK members who might be interested.

I don't want the thread to descend to chest beating and nationalist ranting however :)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Well, two things, firstly that NATO membership and an anti nuclear stance is not incompatible - Denmark has a pretty much this situation at present with a firm commitment to no nuclear arms on Danish soil but remains as a NATO member.

There are a number of other NATO members with stated objections to nuclear weapons as well so that's not a biggy.
My understand is that is that the anti-nuclear positions of some current NATO member-states was in effect prior to the formation of and their respective entries into NATO.

Since then, there have been changes made to the conditions of NATO membership for new member-states, to prevent the nuclear policies and positions of those new NATO members from hamstringing the deployment and operations of nuclear armed/powered forces of other NATO members (i.e. the US, UK and to some degree France). Not sure if these changes are something as formal as written conditions of membership in NATO for new member-states, of if this is more a policy of the US and/or the UK vetoing the new membership requests for anti-nuclear nations.

With the above in mind, I would not automatically assume than an independent Scotland would be allowed into NATO. This is partially due to operations and deployment issues which USN subs and carriers would have, but also due to a requirement to defend Scotland in an emergency which could be a burden for NATO members. Given what seems to be low numbers in terms of personnel and force assets, what appears to be the current proposed force structure would require outside assistance if there was any high intensity activity in Europe which threatened an independent Scotland. IMO the numbers as currently given are questionable in being able to maintain the required level of patrolling and enforcement of what Scotland's likely EEZ claims, SAR and constabulary responses would require.

In terms of force structure, if a future Scotland wanted to have assets available to respond to something at a given moment, then in reality Scotland would need 3x the desired # of responding units or more of that particular asset in order to provide that response.

Assuming the Royal Scottish Navy was reconstituted with a pair of Type 23 frigates, that is an insufficient number of frigates to guarantee that one is always available for operations. Even more so if one of them is sent out on a deployment or engaging in Show the Flag visits. Now add in some sort of amphibious/sealift vessel, and at best, both vessels might (emphasis on MIGHT) be available to deploy as escorts, but those would be insufficient IMO to provide a safe escort in moderate to high threat environments. Deploying both of them (if they could even be surge deployed at the same time...) would also then leave Scotland without any warships in home waters available for anything should there be a threat to Scotland's SLOC.

Scotland would need three frigates to provide one available, and four would be better. Especially if Scotland were to engage in contributing to international actions or deployments like anti-piracy patrols off Somalia or Nigeria, overseas HADR, etc. More frigates, and/or more capable frigates would be required if Scotland wanted to be capable of deploying an independent task force in any area of greater than a low threat level.

On the air side of things, a dozen Typhoon fighters would be sufficient to have two flights available for domestic air intercept duties. In the event of an overseas deployment or high tempo operations, there would be at least gaps in air intercept coverage of Scotland, if not gaping holes. Similarly a half-dozen Hercules air lifters would leave a pair available for operations at any given time. Depending on their condition, level of use and maintenance schedule, it could even be less than that. Something which the Kiwis found during the crisis in Thailand, when none of the five RNZAF C-130H Hercules were available for deployment. If memory serves, one was in the process of being deployed but had to return to NZ due to an equipment failure.

For the land force, three infantry/marine units might just be enough to support one being in the field for a long deployment. This is assuming that the capabilities of the three units are all essentially identical and that any support functions which the unit in the field requires can be met without overtaxing the support capabilities of the land force. Given that only two light artillery, comms and recce units are mentioned, and a single unit each of engineers, transport, logistics, and medical, unless these various units are capable of sub-unit deployment while meeting the required deployed service tasks, then there is insufficient supporting units to sustain a deployment. At least not without drawing the needed support from another nation.

Also of note is that from the plans I have seen, there has been little mention of any sort of training establishment so that new personnel could be brought into a Scottish Defence Force. Resources would need to be allocated to setup any such training establishments which Scotland would not already have, but also to sustain any existing or newly created facilities. Further, personnel would need to be assigned as instructors and then students, along with training kit appropriate to whatever was required for the skills and roles to be taught.

These, and the above mentioned unit and asset numbers are where larger defence forces and militaries can encounter economies of scale. The RN for instance only has three OPV's in UK home waters for patrolling, which means that only one or two is likely out patrolling at any given moment. However, there are also 19 RN destroyers and frigates, of which a number of them can be tasked for patrol around the UK if needed.

Something which I have not seen addressed, what would happen with current 'Scottish' RN, Army, and RAF personnel. Presumably some of them would wish to transfer from their current service into whatever the Scottish equivalent was. What would happen if there was either no appropriate, or insufficient numbers of appropriate roles for those wishing to transfer in? How about if there no, or insufficient numbers of slots at various ranks? Going further with that, what happens to 'Scottish' personnel serving in the RN, Army or RAF who do not wish to transfer to a Scottish Defence Force? I could easily see how a Major in RTR not being keen on transferring from the British Army to a hypothetical Scottish Army, since the type of British unit the Major would have commanded would not exist in the Scottish Army as currently outlined by the suggested plans.

Lastly, if Scotland were to keep the defence budget at roughly the current rate of 2.5% GDP, I get an annual defence budget of roughly £3.4 bil. or about 9% of what the current British Armed Forces defence budget is. What level of personnel, operations, equipment and more importantly capability would that realistically sustain? How well would that really fit with how a Scottish gov't would see a Scottish Defence Force, especially the first gov't which would likely leave a lasting impact on the future shape of any Scottish Defence Force? How would the Scottish Defence Force, particularly the capabilities and operations, especially those overseas, fit with what or how the people of Scotland would see 'their' defence force? This last bit is in mind because as part of the UK, the people would be used to the British Armed Forces being extremely capable, and anywhere. With about a tenth the budget, both the capabilities and the reach of Scotland would be significantly less than they were when part of the UK.

These are all things which would need a fair amount of detailed planning to address, which either has not been done, or it has (or is being done) but not announced.

-Cheers
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
The white paper is a fig leaf defence policy - I don't think the SNP or it's core membership regard defence as being major priorities vs their social policies. About the only thing they've specced to allow it to work is the Tiffy requirement where 16 jets might just about generate a QRA flight of four aircraft around the clock, most days.

Everything else is stuff that'll maybe be there if they need it but most likely won't be. If I were doing the job of Scottish defence minister I'd say no thanks to the frigates and instead commission a run of OPVs with a bit more punch than those in use with the RN - build plenty of them to keep the yards ticking over and make 'em cheap.

Stick a gun on the front so they look warlike and that'd do for most of the SNP voter base.

If you look at their white paper and have a laugh at this quote:

"Scotland’s security will be guaranteed as a non-nuclear member of NATO, with Scotland contributing excellent conventional capabilities to the alliance"


In fact Scotland will be able to contribute about 800-1000 troops in theatre, armed with light weapons and some artillery, with little in terms of logistics tail, relying on the umbrella of air cover provided by other nations.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Since then, there have been changes made to the conditions of NATO membership for new member-states, to prevent the nuclear policies and positions of those new NATO members from hamstringing the deployment and operations of nuclear armed/powered forces of other NATO members (i.e. the US, UK and to some degree France). Not sure if these changes are something as formal as written conditions of membership in NATO for new member-states, of if this is more a policy of the US and/or the UK vetoing the new membership requests for anti-nuclear nations.
Very true

Nato blow to SNP's defence plans for independent Scotland - Telegraph

Senior sources confirmed that Scottish Government officials were informed at Nato headquarters that countries wanting to join are not allowed to “import” existing military or territorial disputes into the alliance.

...

It is understood a Nato assistant general secretary used the meeting to set out the hurdles applicants have to clear to satisfy Article 10 of the North Atlantic Treaty.
This requires all countries to contribute to the alliance’s security, including its nuclear umbrella, which the official said also means not “importing” territorial or military disputes. Scotland would have to demonstrate a history of stable defence policies and structures as a minimum entry requirement.

Article 10 also implies that every Nato member accepts the alliance's nuclear first-strike policy. Officials emphasised that Scotland’s entry would require unanimous agreement of all the 28 existing members.
Then recently with this publication, it emerges that Scotland has softened it's stance on nuclear weapons and won't declare Scottish waters nuclear free. To satisfy Washington they will follow Norway & Denmark's policy of 'don't ask, don't tell'. Meaning NATO ships could use Scottish waters and docks without confirming or denying if they're nuclear armed and effectively has given NATO the green light to operate nuclear submarines in Scottish territorial waters, severe dilution to the whole 'No nuclear weapons in Scotland' policy.

Something which I have not seen addressed, what would happen with current 'Scottish' RN, Army, and RAF personnel. Presumably some of them would wish to transfer from their current service into whatever the Scottish equivalent was. What would happen if there was either no appropriate, or insufficient numbers of appropriate roles for those wishing to transfer in? How about if there no, or insufficient numbers of slots at various ranks? Going further with that, what happens to 'Scottish' personnel serving in the RN, Army or RAF who do not wish to transfer to a Scottish Defence Force? I could easily see how a Major in RTR not being keen on transferring from the British Army to a hypothetical Scottish Army, since the type of British unit the Major would have commanded would not exist in the Scottish Army as currently outlined by the suggested plans.
Not to mention that the Royal Regiment of Scotland already is suffering from insufficient recruitment as is, this is supposed to be the 7 battalion (5 regular, 2 reserve) of which 3 regular units will make up the core of a hypothetical Scottish Army.

Can't imagine the potential deployments nor career prospects of a potential SDF being much cop either, there's a reason the UK services bang on about "Join the RAF/Army/RN & see the world".

Lastly, if Scotland were to keep the defence budget at roughly the current rate of 2.5% GDP, I get an annual defence budget of roughly £3.4 bil. or about 9% of what the current British Armed Forces defence budget is. What level of personnel, operations, equipment and more importantly capability would that realistically sustain? How well would that really fit with how a Scottish gov't would see a Scottish Defence Force, especially the first gov't which would likely leave a lasting impact on the future shape of any Scottish Defence Force? How would the Scottish Defence Force, particularly the capabilities and operations, especially those overseas, fit with what or how the people of Scotland would see 'their' defence force? This last bit is in mind because as part of the UK, the people would be used to the British Armed Forces being extremely capable, and anywhere. With about a tenth the budget, both the capabilities and the reach of Scotland would be significantly less than they were when part of the UK.
Yearly budget of £2.5bn is the number being thrown around IIRC.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
ThinPinStriped's blog on the White Paper, Part 1

Thin Pinstriped Line


I think the points about the potential difficulty in recruiting are valid - I don't think legally existing Scottish members of UK forces can be compelled to transfer to the new Scottish forces - unless legally it were considered a TUPE deal I suppose? In which case, providing equivalent terms were provided, you'd have to go or be considered to have resigned.

Not sure if TUPE applies to HMG/armed forces but it'd be an interesting point.

For future recruitment, well, there's the example of the Republic of Ireland which provides a steady trickle of recruits to UK forces today I suppose - we go out and do ops,which is a rarity among armed forces in the world and a big selling point to people who want to join armed forces to do the job as opposed to polish stuff at the barracks.

Navy wise, their proposed force structure (a pair of frigates, some MCM's and a couple of OPV's) isn't going to be very easy to maintain or deploy - I suspect the frigates will spend a lot of time tied alongside awaiting spares or crews for instance.
 

Astute

New Member
Hi to all
I think a credible defence policy is the last thing on the SNPs leaderships to do list , they show a total lack of understanding of military matters and I'd say they have no real interest in having an armed forces of any real importance anyway,
It's just my opinon but if Scotland does vote to leave the uk the SNP only want a token armed force, maybe a few blue hat peace keeping deployments for a few army units every now and then and not really a navy more coast guard role for the few ships it says it would want . And to be honest that's all the proposed snp defence budget would fund and that suits the SNP .
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm sure you're right - the core membership of the SNP aren't politically very defence orientated and I get the impression that the bits they've put together on defence have basically been intended to sway the non-core but bulk of the Scots voters, with various meaningless but catchy ideas like restoring regiment cap badges (mainly by installing them at company level I'd think..)

The bulk of the ideas aren't particularly affordable and I suspect they'll become like say, South Africa - with most of their ships tied alongside for want of crew, aircraft unable to fly for want of parts.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
As a CDN I have heard all this defence/separation BS with regards to Quebec. Neither the UK or Canada will offer a fair percentage of assets to the separating party nor will allies be embracing these fools at the risk of offending other NATO members. Scotland may have a few sympathetic friends but don't see any other than France for Quebec (even that is a stretch).
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Define "fair" is always the issue with these things. Usually one party wants a lot of the assets and doesn't want to inherit the debt.
If Scotland wants independence then they're very welcome. I'm just less impressed with their actual plans for independence is all.
 

Kitover

New Member
Hi to all
I think a credible defence policy is the last thing on the SNPs leaderships to do list , they show a total lack of understanding of military matters and I'd say they have no real interest in having an armed forces of any real importance anyway,
It's just my opinon but if Scotland does vote to leave the uk the SNP only want a token armed force, maybe a few blue hat peace keeping deployments for a few army units every now and then and not really a navy more coast guard role for the few ships it says it would want . And to be honest that's all the proposed snp defence budget would fund and that suits the SNP .
This. The SNP is not constituted of the kind of people who believe in defence. They have assessed that most vital national security issues concerning an independent Scotland are inexorably linked to those concerning England, Wales and NI, and therefore English expenditure will cover the cost. They will create a token force to send to UN missions in order to project the notion they are a power. All of this is peripheral to the main point which is that the SNP does not have the political support in Scotland to pull off independence in the first place, with the majority of Scots, and the vast majority of young Scots, planning to vote for the Union.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
This. The SNP is not constituted of the kind of people who believe in defence. They have assessed that most vital national security issues concerning an independent Scotland are inexorably linked to those concerning England, Wales and NI, and therefore English expenditure will cover the cost. They will create a token force to send to UN missions in order to project the notion they are a power. All of this is peripheral to the main point which is that the SNP does not have the political support in Scotland to pull off independence in the first place, with the majority of Scots, and the vast majority of young Scots, planning to vote for the Union.
Scotland's SNP is much like Quebec's PQ party. Using another country's currency as yours and leaving defense to your former country hardly sounds like sovereignty to most people. Likely the average Scot has more concerns for defense matters than your average Québécois. Canadians are almost as guilty on this score, the consequences of living next to an ally which is a superpower.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Personally speaking the £2.5 billion is more like a base figure.
Not according to the SNP, that is THE projected budget. If they get around to having to implement it then perhaps they will alter it WRT ambitions, but until then, the SNP advocates a budget of £2.5bn and to claim otherwise isn't strictly accurate

I would like to see our current contribution to remain the same at around the £3.3 - £3.6 billion mark and I would like to see us retain some heavy units challenger 2s, AS-90 and replace the L85A2 G36
So you're an advocate on increasing the potential Scottish defence budget?

Why would a SDF need CR2s? Why would they need AS-90s? What kind of peacekeeping requires the deployment of the highest end armour on the market and a self propelled howitzer?

How will a SDF transport these elements* to the proposed peacekeeping missions? This required heavy sealift assets, would the SDF either buy assets such as an LSD or something like a Point class sealift ship?

What is the situation with a SDF naval resupply capability? Or will they rely on allies to provide this capability? How will a replenishment crew be trained in an independent Scotland, because the Royal Navy has these traning establishment built in the UK. Will Scotland replicate these north of the border or will they rely on UK training establishments?

*Itself an interesting question, would you see current force planning either reduced to offset the manpower and costs of an armoured force or believe this can be funded in some kind of underspend you believe the SNP would have? If the current force structure is to be reduced, which Scottish infantry battalions would you disband? Because the SNP has pledged to keep them all.

Curious about the reason to replace the L85A2, a perfectly fine weapon in it's own right. Seems like a waste of money if Scotland is entitled to a share of them, with UKAF cuts it's not as though we've not got spares.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, Scotland is welcome to all the Cr2's and AS90's they can carry on the way out of the door - but like Rob, I have no idea where they'd fit into the light infantry structure painted by the SNP.

Personally, if I were in charge of the SNP's army I'd say "no thanks" as the cost of retaining them would be crippling.

Ditching SA80 seems nonsensical - there's a ton of 'em available and they've been extensively upgraded with rails, sights, UGL's, the lot.

Let's put it this way, adding in heavier armour is very contrary to the SNP's proposed vision of a largely domestic force making occasional contributions to international peacekeeping efforts. Given the SNP haven't laid out plans to provide transport for any of that kit overseas, I think it'd be a pointless exercise.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
The main complaint about SNP defence plans is detail, it seems like someone has written out a kit list about what they'd like but they're consistently lacking in detail with respect to training and supporting these forces.
 
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