Comparison Study: The Dutch Military and the German Intervention Forces

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
That's right.But who else doesn't has these kind of problems these days?
I suspect most of the stuff in Russian depots is not serviceable without some major overhaul (if at all). At least the remaining stuff in NATO depots (it is not all gone) should be relatively ok to equip some reserve formations with.
Well they did manage to pull some units straight out of depots in Stability-2008 exercises, where they called up reservists and pulled entire rgts (I'm not sure if entire divisions were mobilized or not) straight out of the "cadre" (10-30% sized units) depots. Though I suspect you're right in terms of the condition of much of the equipment.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
A quick overlook of the Romanian and Bulgarian Armed Forces, rapid-reaction, non-territorial components. Beware, i'm mostly working off wikipedia with this, so not exactly ... reliable in any way.

Both forces were restructured to NATO standards. Note similarities to GIF/RDM?
(of course with some adaption especially for the navies)

Romania
Non-Territorial Land Forces
2 mechanized brigades, 2 light/medium inf brigades, 1 artillery brigade (comparable to GIF art regiment with 2nd rocket art btl), 1 para btl
Air Force and Helicopter assets
has in usable reaction forces: 4 fighter squadrons (48 MiG-21bis Lancer), 4 operational C-130H (two to be converted to this), 3 cargo An-26 (might be replaced by C-27J); 23 IAR-330 SOCAT attack helicopters, 60 IAR-330 transport helos.
Air Defense
8 batteries MIM-23 Hawk XXI; organic units: SA-6, SA-8
Navy
3 frigates, ASW-focus, 4 large ASW corvettes, 6 FACs, 4 MCM vessels.

"ramp-up": 1 mechanized brigade, 2 inf brigades, 1 artillery brigade

Bulgaria
Non-Territorial Land Forces
1 armoured, 1 mechanized, 1 infantry, 1 artillery brigade (? not sure on this)
Air Force and Helicopter assets
2 fighter squadron (20 MiG-29, ~20 MiG-21bis), 2 attack squadron (~30 Su-25K), 5 C-27J (under delivery), 7 Let L-410, 12 AS532 Cougar, 6 AS565 Panther, 18 Mi-17, 18 Mi-24
Air Defense
2 batteries SA-10, 6 batteries SA-3, 1 btl SA-5; organic units: SA-6, SA-8, SA-13
Navy
... someone else do that. not up-to-date on it. 3 Wielingen, 4 Gowind large corvettes under procurement (replacing Rigas?), some corvettes.

"ramp-up": 2 mechanized brigades, 2 artillery brigades, multiple various regiments
 

BuSOF

New Member
Hello!
I am sorry I saw that thread too late, but I am not that active in the forum anyway. I saw that the military of my country was mentioned and i realised that the lack of knowledge about it leads to some strange and incorrect assumptions. The reason for that is not other but the incompetence and Cold War-era thinking of both our MoD and General Staff, so you guys are really not to blame.
As I see kato puts the Bulgarian forces in the following perspective:

Bulgaria
Non-Territorial Land Forces
1 armoured, 1 mechanized, 1 infantry, 1 artillery brigade (? not sure on this)
Air Force and Helicopter assets
2 fighter squadron (20 MiG-29, ~20 MiG-21bis), 2 attack squadron (~30 Su-25K), 5 C-27J (under delivery), 7 Let L-410, 12 AS532 Cougar, 6 AS565 Panther, 18 Mi-17, 18 Mi-24
Air Defense
2 batteries SA-10, 6 batteries SA-3, 1 btl SA-5; organic units: SA-6, SA-8, SA-13
Navy
... someone else do that. not up-to-date on it. 3 Wielingen, 4 Gowind large corvettes under procurement (replacing Rigas?), some corvettes.

"ramp-up": 2 mechanized brigades, 2 artillery brigades, multiple various regiments
Starting with the tank forces: the two armoured brigades that existed do not exist anymore: 13th Tank Brigade was converted into a Tank Training Center (call it a tank training regiment if you like) with I believe two tank battalions.
The other one - 9th Tank Brigade was converted into a mechanised brigade headquarters of two mechanised battalions - in Sofia and Blagoevgrad and no combat support units but only some minor combat service support units. According to MOD plans around the year 2015 we are to have 160 MBTs which means a tank battalion with each of the two mechanised brigades and two battalions at 13th TTC.
To the Mechanised formations: I don't know the extend to which you kato are familiar with those formations in Bulgaria, but those are not "1 mechanized, 1 infantry" brigade but 3 mechanised brigades. Until recently those were "pure" mechanised infantry brigades with a SP-artillery battalion but no organic tank battalion. With the on-going restructuring the tank battalions of 13th Tank Brigade which anyway were earmarked for attachment to the brigades in case of war became organic to those formations. One of those brigades was transferred to Central North Bulgaria. So according to plan around 2015 we will retain the existing brigades:
o 2nd "Tundzha [River]'s" Light Infantry Brigade in Stara Zagora
o 5th "Shipka's" Mechanised Infantry Brigade in Pleven
o 61st "Stryama [River]'s" Mechanised Infantry Brigade in Karlovo
In spite of its name 2nd Brigade is also mechanised. The only difference between it and 5th and 61st is that its mechanised infantry rides in modernised BTR-60s. (I am not that much an expert and i do not recall the exact rebranding and the upgrade package. The only thing that i recall at the moment is that the old engine section of two powerplants is being changed by a Cummins engine.)
In addition to those formations the Land Forces have 68th Special Operations Forces Brigade in Plovdiv. The 1st Para-Recon Regiment ceased to exist and its troops became part of the brigade. the 101st Mountain Brigade is compressed to a battalion which will also be part of the SOF Brigade. the PsyOps Battalion will probably be assigned directly to the General Staff.
The artillery brigade and the engineer brigade will become regiments. So will the 110th Logistics Brigade of the Land Forces, which will become 110th Mobile Logistic Support Regiment.
The Operations Command, Special Operations Command, Western and Eastern Command ceased to exist last year.
According to Plan 2015 the IFV and APCs will be up to 378, the artillery systems up to 200.

Moving on.
Air Force and Helicopter assets
Plan 2015 says:
o 3rd Fighter Airbase will consist of two fighter squadrons based at Graf Ignatievo and Bezmer (the latter airbase shared with the USAF.) 20 advanced fighter aircraft are to be acquired, Su-25 will be scrapped or sold.
Two C-27j Spartans are delivered and MoD has some second thoughts whether those are sufficient and isn't it possible to cut the deal short (which was originally for 5 Spartans plus three options.) The L-410 will soldier on for 2 or 3 years. The only PC-12 which was briefly used for transport pilot training is grounded for two years now for lack of funding for the required repairs after the propeller was damaged at landing because of landing gear malfunction.
The 8 transport Cougars are delivered, so is the first out of 4 CSAR Cougars. I really don't get it why the MoD calls them CSAR machines. They are SAR at best because they lack some crucial equipment and any weaponry. As Bulgaria has declared 18 transport helicopters and the Cougar order falls short Mi-17s are being overhauled at the moment, numbering 6 machines.
The Mi-24 were declared at a level of 12 modernised machines but after some hard work the politicians, the civil and military leadership of our Armed Forces succeded several times at sabotaging the programme, so they can be proud of themselves. Don't know who's fault it is. Apparently the companies that took part in the contest are not giving enough bribery. Fact is that Bulgaria is the leading country in the technologies for protection armour of combat helicopters, NATO is impressed and we cannot even apply those technologies to our own units.
The AS.565MB Panther are ordered for the Navy so they don't belong here. The first machine will arrive in 2009.
Air Force will consist of:
o 3rd Fighter Airbase
o 24th Helicopter Airbase
o 16th Transport Airbase
o 12th Training Airbase
o Forward Operating Airbase
o 1st Missile Air Defense Brigade of 9 missile battalions
o 1st Radar Regiment
Plan 2015 calls for 20 fighter planes; 10 transport planes; 18 training planes; 12 combat helicopters; 18 transport helicopters (including the 4 SAR) and no training helicopters so the Bell 206s will be sold as they have barely flown 200 hours each since they were bought.
Forgot to mention the shared acquisition of 3 C-17 Globemaster IIIs.

As for the Navy:
o Naval Base Varna
o Naval Base "Atiya" (Bourgas)
o Separate Naval Helicopter Airbase "Tchayka" (Varna)
o additional ground-based units.
Plan 2015 calls for 6 major surface combatants; 14 combat support ships; 6 support ships and 6 seaborne helicopters.
That means that our last remaining sub will also be scrapped without replacement.
At the moment we have three Wielingens without Exosets because they are out of service due to ageing. In a year or two the same will happen with the Sea Sparrows. Due to manpower cutbacks the crews were assembled by the scrapping of several older ships. The only people that are happy of those pieces of junk are the crewmen because they didn't loose their jobs.
those are the types we have now: http://vimpel.boinaslava.net/index.php?module=bg_flot_4
without the "Class 500", P-157 and FPB 28 cutters that belong to Border Police. The Gowind deal is 99% surely history. Th ewhole idea for it was that France was presiding over the EU and the Bulgarian socialist party imagined that if we sign a major deal with France Sarkozy will make a miracle and our EU-funding will not be blocked. Sounds ridiculous but those guys still think the way they did between 1944 and 1989, it's the same people really. Since the "brilliant" plan didn't go through they think they can punnish Paris by striking a deal with Luerssen for the K-130 corvettes but our naval personnel is mostly in favour of the Gowind project.

So basically we will have:
(XXXX) Defense Staff (rebranding the General Staff)
with services, inspectorates and units directly assigned to it
(X) Signal Brigade
(X) Logistical Brigade
(X) Military Medical Academy (with the other military hospitals assigned to it)
(XX) Military Academy of the Armed Forces
(X) Defense University
(III) Air Force Department of the Defense University
(X) Higher Naval School
(XXX) Joint Operational Command
(XX)Higher Land Forces Staff
=already posted probable structure=
(XX)Higher Air Forces Staff
=already posted probable structure=
(XX)Higher Naval Forces Staff
=already posted probable structure=

As you see it is not exactly the structure the GIF ir the RDM have or will have.
 

Firn

Active Member
Most interesting posts, kato

If I had it spotted earlier I would have had to spend less time reading things to get a hold off the Dutch military. After my time I naively believed that things work similar everywhere´in Europe.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
A late reply...

As you see it is not exactly the structure the GIF ir the RDM have or will have.
But not all that different either, accounting for difference in financial resources.

Consider the following, disregarding equipment differences:

2 combined-arms brigades (GIF: 2, RDM: 2)
about 5 mot/light inf battalions in 2 brigades (SOF and 2nd) (GIF: 5, RDM: 5)
9 SAM battalions (GIF: 9 btl)

2 tank battalions (not present in GIF/RDM), may offset capability of Leo 2A6M to T-72M2 to some extent.

Fire Support: ~25% Airforce, but about 200% Artillery (800% to RDM)
Air Transport and Helos: ~30% level
Sealift: non-existant (not a member of MCCE)

Navy: roughshot, but technically similar numbers; if we look at it in terms of "what can they do", we'd have a "combatant squadron" (ie like the GIF/RDM Frigate Squadron), and we'd have 14 ships of which some can take over mine-clearing and some local patrol duties (compared to 14 in RDM and 11 in GIF); SSKs are completely lacking.

One could say to some extent that while all three represent similar force levels, the Bulgarian outfit is a defensive one, the RDM a mixed bag, and the GIF the expeditionary-focused version.

---

If we'd want to bring that structure up to GIF/RDM at least organization-wise, we'd obviously have to put the big crank on the Airforce. Sealift and strategic airlift is easily solved by spending some 10-15 million a year on MCCE membership (MSSC + SALIS or whatever). Remainder of Navy can - provided a Gowind sale goes through - be modernized with some EU military donations. With SSKs one could try the Polish way, picking up way obsolete systems to at least have some training capacity. Germany could probably donate some U206A. Helos are a big issue, but i don't really see any Eastern-European (or other for that matter) NATO country were they're not.
 
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