Chinese new generation fighters, a serious challenged to USAF.

[berry580]

It's true that most advanced system India pocess is from foreign suppliers, nobody deny that. But do you think Indians would be stupid enough not to do a little research on these systems? Isn't that how China started?

And you argue that Chinese developed AWACS system which is still under testing is better than the already operational Indian Phalcon? Undeniable logic there. By the time the Chinese system becomes operational India might already be able to build their own Phalcon.

So tell me which one is faster? Doing research on your own or buying the system then do research on it?

China buy the weapon system, they use it, as well as reverse engineer it, modify it and apply their own technology into to it to suit their needs. Not buy the system, and then buy another one when the first gets old.

So how many did India buy? Ok, I'll call it X amount.
India may have it operational already, but in the end, they still don't know how to make it, and they'll only always have X amount, unless they want to buy more at a rip off price tag (because producer needs to make money). They can't enhance their AWAC as exports tends have limitations set by the seller preventing you from upgrading it without their help (which means you'll then pay more $$$).
But when China finishes their own AWAC, they can continue to modify their design to enhance it capability, not to mention the airforce can easily get additional numbers at production cost.

By the time the Chinese system becomes operational India might already be able to build their own Phalcon.

Really? Well you're talking about a period of time that's potentially less than half a decade, as the Chinese has already begun trial & evaluation, and I personally have my doubts that the Indians can reverse engineer an AWAC even in a decade, if they can't even make a tank that they're satisfied with in 2 decades.

So tell me which one is faster? Doing research on your own or buying the system then do research on it?

Well in theory, it'll be faster if you work on what you buy than making it from scratch, but in reality, the Indians simply can't do it successfuly for some reason (by the looks of the trend of their history) and they just have a tendency to buy blindly.

 

[Aussie Digger]

India is acquiring an air to air refuelling capability Berry, I just didn't realise it had acquired some already. It's program is ongoing however and not complete yet.

The US were at a technological disadvantage for the majority of WW2 compared to Germany (but then so was every other country) and a lot of their systems nowadays are outclassed by certain individual platforms. The SU-30 vs F-15 is just one example.

A mature Eurofighter or Rafale will outclass a number of US platforms including F-16/F-18C/D and arguably F/A-18E/F. The E-2C Grumman AWACS aircraft (even in it's latest Hawkeye 2000) series is outclassed by a number of other AWACS systems including Phalcon and Wedgetail . US Missile systems such as AMRAAM are outclassed by weapons such as the R-77 Vympel (despite specific improvements to AMRAAM such as the C-7 model which are designed to bring it closer in performance) and soon the Meteor BVRAAM.

What the US does have Berry, is a mastery of warfighting rather than complete and total dominance in every platform. The total force it can generate is significantly greater than any other force, due to the integration and "jointness" of it's forces AND their capability. It does not soley possess total technological dominance.

 

[VICTORA1]

Gentlemen,
Just for you pro china, pro india ---if a defence analyst in the U S says that the indians or the chinese are ahead of them in what the fighters can do and what their long range missiles can do, that would be the time that I would start looking for shortcomings in my program. Trust me on that, it is deception to the first degree by the americans----it is like showing you the left and you never see the right coming on till you see the stars bursting in front of your eyes. People and nations who have taken the U S for an easy prey have paid a very heavy price for it.

If the israeli manufactured radar was a threat to the U S, the indians would have never gotten the go ahead on that.

Now let me ask you the computer savy people---isn't it possible for the israelis to hide certain programs in the software of the indian phalcon that it does not work against the israeli or american threat. You know that the indians would not be allowed to do complete maintenance of the equipment.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Every system that is sold, be it american, english, french, indian, australian, russian, chinese etc... is keyed. It's only sold as an export if you know the following:

1) That you will not be threatened by it if stolen
2) That it is redundant against your own technological base
3) That an attempt to reverse engineer it will either result in irreperable destruction of critical components or that it will be rendered useless without a critical hardware element.

I'm involved with a technology that is being sold to China. They can build every component except one. The processor is conformal and cannot be sliced. So if any attempt is made to copy or slice the processor as part of a process of reverse engineering, it will destroy critical tolerances and links.

We only sell it as we know that they can't copy it, we know that they can't duplicate it, and we know that they can't reverse engineer it. That component must come back everytime it is required for service or analysis - if its missing, then they get no support.

I know of probably half a dozen euro companies that do not sell china dual use technology for similar reasons of trust. those that do have designed the tech to be damaged if tampered with.

 

[berry580]

India is acquiring an air to air refuelling capability Berry, I just didn't realise it had acquired some already. It's program is ongoing however and not complete yet.

The US were at a technological disadvantage for the majority of WW2 compared to Germany (but then so was every other country) and a lot of their systems nowadays are outclassed by certain individual platforms. The SU-30 vs F-15 is just one example.

A mature Eurofighter or Rafale will outclass a number of US platforms including F-16/F-18C/D and arguably F/A-18E/F. The E-2C Grumman AWACS aircraft (even in it's latest Hawkeye 2000) series is outclassed by a number of other AWACS systems including Phalcon and Wedgetail . US Missile systems such as AMRAAM are outclassed by weapons such as the R-77 Vympel (despite specific improvements to AMRAAM such as the C-7 model which are designed to bring it closer in performance) and soon the Meteor BVRAAM.

What the US does have Berry, is a mastery of warfighting rather than complete and total dominance in every platform. The total force it can generate is significantly greater than any other force, due to the integration and "jointness" of it's forces AND their capability. It does not soley possess total technological dominance.

Ok, then that almost made the Indians "comparable," but now inferior AGAIN.

WWII was pretty much the only exception. Even if simulations conclused the SU-30 was "superior" to the F-15, but overall, they're still comparable. About your over examples e.g AAM, AWACS, fighters, etc. Although they're technologically inferior when you compare them without any other factors, but once in a war, all the factors would come, and that is in favor of the Americans due to exceptional logistics, training etc which keeps them in front. So the point is- not just they generally have technological advantage (overall), but even advantage by the fact that they're highly integrqated with the help of their advanced technology (e.g Satellites)

 

[Mike Powell]

Hmm, I though Chinese J-10 is a copy from Isreal's Lavi Fighter. And any info on Lavi Fighter. What Lavi means in Hebrew?

 

[highsea]

LAVI was a joint US/Israeli project. It ran from 1980 to 1987. The US funded 90% of the development costs (about $2 Bn. USD).

Originally it was intended to be a low-cost replacement for the A-4. In 1982 it was redesigned to be a front line fighter for the IAF.

A lot of advanced US tech went into the AC, including Pratt and Whitney PW1120 engines; graphite epoxy composite materials; electronic countermeasures (ECM) parts; radar-warning receivers and their logarithms; wide-angle, heads-up display; programmable signal-processor emulator; flight-control computer; single-crystal turbine technology; and computer and airframe system.

At the time of cancellation, about 40% of the systems were being built by US contractors. 2 prototypes were built, and a third was built by IAI 2 years later as a technology demonstrator.

IAI Lavi

Israel planned to export the LAVI, but the US would have objected. IIRC, it was around 1989 when the LAVI engineers went to China and revived the J-10 program as a LAVI clone. Naturally the US didn't find out about this till much later.

The LAVI was arguably one of the most ill-conceived programs the US ever got involved with. A large amount of valuable technology was handed over to Israel, which angered most of the Arab countries in the ME (not to mention a lot of people in the Pentagon and State Dept.). $2 Billion of the US taxpayer's money was spent, only to have the technology to end up in China.

I don't know what LAVI means in Hebrew, but as far as I'm concerned it means "boondoggle".

 

[VICTORA1]

Guys,
My understanding is that Lavi was manufactured by the israelis for the same reason, the israelis made their own mirage after the french put the sanctions on them in the 60's. Israelis didnot want to be left high and dry if the u s of a decided to walk away one day. I guess the u s did promise both the ends and did follow through in giving whatever the israelis needed for the air defence to cancel the production of the aircraft.