Canada's next Jet Fighter?

the road runner

Active Member
Can't beat a line of sight weapon that travels at the speed of light.
Lasers are just like a flash light as with distance comes less power.I am under the impression that if you point a laser at an object it takes time to destroy that object.
If the target is far away the longer the laser will have to lase the target to destroy it.

lasers are not like a light sabre ,that if it touches an object it cuts through it and destroys.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Can't beat a line of sight weapon that travels at the speed of light.
Sure you can. For one thing, a LOS weapon is limited to being, well... Line of Sight. Which means if the strike aircraft is able to launch from outside of the LOS, or remain "out of sight" then the lasers could be used to engage the aircraft.

Keep in mind that apart from any weapon system requiring range and effective energy delivery to the target (which lasers BTW could have some difficulties with that combination) as well as reload/recharge times, the weapon system also has detection and tracking/targeting requirements.

Much of the work done on the F-35 in terms of LO capabilities has been to degrade the effectiveness of air defence systems, by making it difficult for the sensor components of such systems to detect and keep track of F-35's in flight. Even if (big IF) an effective, long-ranged laser weapon system could be developed capable of rapidly destroying aircraft in flight, such a system if of limited use if it cannot be accurately aimed at aircraft outside of visual range.

-Cheers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Lasers are just like a flash light as with distance comes less power.I am under the impression that if you point a laser at an object it takes time to destroy that object.
If the target is far away the longer the laser will have to lase the target to destroy it.

lasers are not like a light sabre ,that if it touches an object it cuts through it and destroys.
Not like a flashlight (or torch, as we'd say), because the beam is far more coherent. The beam does spread with distance, but very little. There are also losses from hitting dust, water droplets, & even air. So yes, there is a loss with distance, but vastly less than with conventional light sources.

Yes, it does take time. How much depends on the power of the laser, & what it's hitting.
 

the concerned

Active Member
With regards to lasers could you not deploy something on a uav or helicopter to provide over the horizon targetting,if the US deploy it on cv's then you've got a nuclear reactor to provide power so the lasers would be extremely capable. with regards to targetting aircraft you dont have to destroy it just disable its electrical power then it can't function hence out of the fight.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
With regards to lasers could you not deploy something on a uav or helicopter to provide over the horizon targetting,if the US deploy it on cv's then you've got a nuclear reactor to provide power so the lasers would be extremely capable. with regards to targetting aircraft you dont have to destroy it just disable its electrical power then it can't function hence out of the fight.
You can't guarantee that a burst of concentrated direct energy could hit a vital electrical component. What you can guarantee (at least, more so) is that you could hit something just as important - and more importantly bigger - like an engine or just generally center mass and if you pump enough energy onto it a major fault will happen ultimately ending up downing the aircraft or forcing it to bug out due to component failure.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
With regards to lasers could you not deploy something on a uav or helicopter to provide over the horizon targetting,if the US deploy it on cv's then you've got a nuclear reactor to provide power so the lasers would be extremely capable. with regards to targetting aircraft you dont have to destroy it just disable its electrical power then it can't function hence out of the fight.
Lasers on ships has been done to death on here before, do we really need to go over this topic again? it will come down to power generation and what type of laser is used if I remember the last discussion on this subject.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
With regards to lasers could you not deploy something on a uav or helicopter to provide over the horizon targetting,if the US deploy it on cv's then you've got a nuclear reactor to provide power so the lasers would be extremely capable. with regards to targetting aircraft you dont have to destroy it just disable its electrical power then it can't function hence out of the fight.
The light from the laser will still only travel a path which is a straight line, hence LOS limitation. A UAV or helicopter (or other form of aircraft) could potentially provide extended detection capability since it would have a farther visual and radar horizon than a ship-mounted sensor or LOS weapon, but the laser still would need to wait until the target had passed over the horizon towards the ship.

Lasers on ships has been done to death on here before, do we really need to go over this topic again? it will come down to power generation and what type of laser is used if I remember the last discussion on this subject.
IIRC there was a little bit more to it than power generation and what type of laser, but not by much. It is also a good point, since if we start attempting to justify what fighter jet Canada should (or should not) get based upon the potential for anti-aircraft lasers to be in service... Such arguments belong in a Scifi forum, since we are quite a ways away from such weaponry being in service, nevermind capable enough to replace SAM's in an area air defence role. Not to mention that if this is something people are getting hung up about, it would serve as an argument for elimination of all sorts of airborne surveillance and combat assets. I do not see anyone attempting to make that sort of argument here.

-Cheers
 

SteelTiger 177

New Member
I just read something about this in Combat Aircraft magazine that Canada my be considering backing out of the F-35 and possibly going to the F/A18 Super Hornet.If thats the case that'll make the RCAF the third airforce to have a "blended" force of Hornets after the U.S.Navy and the RAAF.
 

King Wally

Active Member
I just read something about this in Combat Aircraft magazine that Canada my be considering backing out of the F-35 and possibly going to the F/A18 Super Hornet.If thats the case that'll make the RCAF the third airforce to have a "blended" force of Hornets after the U.S.Navy and the RAAF.

Yeah It's a decent possibility from what I've heard. There are a number of people that seam to draw similarities to the Australian example where we moved to aquire some Super Hornets while the F-35 program matures and kicks into gear. Like canada Australia was also replacing 80's era classic hornets and was also a development partner in the F-35 program.

At this stage most canadian commentators seam to tout the idea of either going 100% F-35 or 100% Super Hornets, I'm yet to see someone seriously push the mixed fleet idea that Australia seams to be on but I do feel it has merit. Then again to clariffy the Australian example we specifically picked up our initial 24 Super Hornets in response to retiring our F-111's in 2010 (at that stage we were flying classic F-18's and F111's mixed), it just so happens that the Australian gov is now looking to possibly pick up an extra 24 Super Hornets / Growlers to start coving for F-18's as they too start to retire around 2020. Our original plan was to replace all our classic F-18's with F-35's however we seam to be very close to the edge of a 50/50 mixed fleet concept that would see half our air power sit in Super Hornets/Growlers and the other half F-35's.
 

luccloud

New Member
I just read something about this in Combat Aircraft magazine that Canada my be considering backing out of the F-35 and possibly going to the F/A18 Super Hornet.If thats the case that'll make the RCAF the third airforce to have a "blended" force of Hornets after the U.S.Navy and the RAAF.
Well, that idea are certainly flowing around in the media a lot lately, Harper will probably double down on F35 but the next election is only 2 years away so maybe someone else will be PM by then.

Our F18 is newer than RAAF's F111 so if the govt decide to stick with F35, the military probably just keep using the current CF18 till the F35 is ready. I really don't see them having two type of planes in their inventory due to maintenance cost.

At the end of the day, it will all go down to politics. Will Obama give pressure to our govt? Will he be able to get Japan to place a huge order on F35? Who knows.
But Lockheed Martin better get its act together, a lot of the countries previously signed up for the F35 will be slashing their defense budget in the next decade. If the F35 cost keep on going up, they won't be able to afford it anymore.

Boeing touts fighter jet to rival F-35 — at half the price - Canada - CBC News
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
before this turns into a runaway train lets get some clarity and perspective here.

The canadians like the australians and some of the other core partners have active consideration for fallback solutions

nobody I know (and that includes canadians) wants Shornet as a replacement as the plane - for all its benefits, is not competitive across all the conops requirements against JSF

an all Shornet fleet (even with Growlers) is not combat competitive/effective against JSF

the whole discussion about interim or fallback models has to be considered, but a bit of pause and caution about comparable capability needs to be sitting high in the saddle.
 

King Wally

Active Member
Saw some news on this at Canada Preparing to Replace its CF-18 Hornets

March 3/13: Canada’s issues its official RFI/ “Industry Engagement Request”:

“Five identified companies with aircraft in production—The Boeing Company, Dassault Aviation, EADS Eurofighter, Lockheed Martin and Saab Group—were previously sent a draft of the questionnaire on January 25, 2013, for comment. The National Fighter Procurement Secretariat received input from all five companies and their feedback is reflected in the final questionnaire, which the companies are being asked to complete within six weeks. A second questionnaire to obtain information on costs will be sent in draft form to the five companies for comment at a later date.”
But Lockheed Martin better get its act together, a lot of the countries previously signed up for the F35 will be slashing their defense budget in the next decade.
Between you and me I'm actually expecting over the coming 1-2 years to see the US cut back its F-35 orders as well. Bottom line budgets seam to be tightening in a lot of countries. I'm just hoping the likely scale backs to orders globally doesn't have a crazy impact on unit price otherwise that may well cause the problem to become even worse. A kind of death spiral so to say where orders reduce and price increases and as a result more orders reduce etc.

I'm only really up to speed with the RAAF situation but I know on our side we started with a plan for 100 F-35's and I honestly think best case scenario now is for 75 odd... and theres every chance it could drop lower toward the 50 mark very easily given we've requested a price on extra Supers/Growlers just recently. As always we have another election this year so politics will likely play a big part in that.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
theres every chance it could drop lower toward the 50 mark very easily given we've requested a price on extra Supers/Growlers just recently. As always we have another election this year so politics will likely play a big part in that.
nope, thats the process of alerting congress etc.... it is not about an intent to purchase.

it may well be converted if the Govt elects to push the panic button and go to Plan B, but notification on its own does not always translate to intent to purchase.

otherwise we would have had Spartans in 2005 and Herc gunships in 2006
 

the road runner

Active Member
nope, thats the process of alerting congress etc.... it is not about an intent to purchase.

it may well be converted if the Govt elects to push the panic button and go to Plan B, but notification on its own does not always translate to intent to purchase.
A business decision IMHO, as in, LM the Australian government wants to see results(as we are seeing in the JSF program) or we are more than happy to buy off Boeing. I think(and hope) they are just playing politics.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A business decision IMHO, as in, LM the Australian government wants to see results(as we are seeing in the JSF program) or we are more than happy to buy off Boeing. I think(and hope) they are just playing politics.
momentary OT to respond:

I wouldn't regard it as a "bluff"

Govt and RAAF have contingency in place, they are committed to JSF as it impacts upon a whole pile of other force development issues which this country is determined to to follow as its a capability issue

However, that does not guarantee absolute numbers of JSF, if you were a betting man you would bet on 50 x JF minimum.

If LM screw the pooch, then the AustGov will have no qualms about doing an interim buy of another manufacturers solution.

the mantra is not about whether we buy JSF, its about how many we buy over what period of time. all the test vignettes and combat scenarios show that JSF is a golden mile ahead of anything else available in that capability matrix

Shornet/Growler is no substitute for JSF, but if it gives a 10 year window of maintaining a capability, then its a viable solution

Canada is in the same position - and with that we shouldn't continue to hijack the canadian thread.... /grin
 

t68

Well-Known Member
momentary OT to respond:

I wouldn't regard it as a "bluff"

Govt and RAAF have contingency in place, they are committed to JSF as it impacts upon a whole pile of other force development issues which this country is determined to to follow as its a capability issue

However, that does not guarantee absolute numbers of JSF, if you were a betting man you would bet on 50 x JF minimum.

If LM screw the pooch, then the AustGov will have no qualms about doing an interim buy of another manufacturers solution.

the mantra is not about whether we buy JSF, its about how many we buy over what period of time. all the test vignettes and combat scenarios show that JSF is a golden mile ahead of anything else available in that capability matrix

Shornet/Growler is no substitute for JSF, but if it gives a 10 year window of maintaining a capability, then its a viable solution

Canada is in the same position - and with that we shouldn't continue to hijack the canadian thread.... /grin

Sorry to stay off topic, but if that's the case would it not be in the best interest to get the extra Super Bugs and delay F35 till its ready to roll without any bugs ( no pun intended) then do a split buy to counter block obsolesce
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
I simply don't see Canada buying anything but F-35.

The current RFI is just a political show.

I think the Canadian Air Force would rather lower the number of F-35 and/or reduce the number of bases, rely more on simulations, etc. to keep the costs down.

Unless something goes terribly bad with the F-35 and/or the Canadian economy then they will get the F-35.
 

luccloud

New Member
Between you and me I'm actually expecting over the coming 1-2 years to see the US cut back its F-35 orders as well. Bottom line budgets seam to be tightening in a lot of countries.
People don't realize many countries are in really bad financial situation and will NEED to cut a huge chunk of the current govt spending.

UK is already in austerity mode, Italy is in even worst shape and Canada is only marginally better becoz the previous govt paid back some of the debt. US is in total political girdlock now so I am not sure what they gonna do.

So unless Japan and maybe India pick up the slack. F35 have a huge chance of getting into a death spiral as you suggested.

Also, according to a report by dod, F35 apparently have a huge blind spot at the back and it will be quite hard to fix the problem.
F-35 fighter jet plagued by poor visibility, Pentagon report warns | Toronto Star
 

the road runner

Active Member
Also, according to a report by dod, F35 apparently have a huge blind spot at the back and it will be quite hard to fix the problem.
F-35 fighter jet plagued by poor visibility, Pentagon report warns | Toronto Star
Wonder how EO-DAS will work in this blind spot ,probably work pretty well.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fm5vfGW5RY"]F-35 JSF Distributed Aperture System (EO DAS) - YouTube[/nomedia]

And 4th gen aircraft dont have a blind spot in their radar's? hmm
Don't take into account what Billy Flynn has to say,i mean he has only flow the plane.

I sometimes think , these reporters must have nothing better to do than bash the JSF.
Sure it has problems ,but they are getting rectified ,what plane dose not have issues when its new to the flock? I can not think of one.
 
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VerySneaky

New Member
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