Do you not see the irony of this statement?
nfloorl:
Can the US Navy defend itself from Chinese & Russian Military Tech?
- Thread starter Izzy1
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nfloorl:Enlighten us oh great one....
can I see a link on this please????
i love it, reichstag fire, sure sure, so this was all hitlers fault as well, i knew it, why won't that bastard just stay dead!
nfloorl: I always liked gunboat diplomacy really, saved so many lives and got the point across so well, i feel theres just not enough of it, and hell, you would think america was at was with all those ships in the persian gulf, would'nt you?
I think that Iran has a lot of chinese and american tech, also, poke around, there are a few more Threads with this question, continue the argument there.
should we be looking at Cold war doctrine of taking out the Subs as its a bigger threat?
Hey I think IRAQIRESISTANCE has the U.S and Iran confused in comparison to the Reichstag, isn`t it the Irainian president who stated that a certain race of people shouldn`t exist on earth and that they needed to be wiped out, just for you IRAQIRESISTANCE I will make that correction for you just in case this is what you are really wanted to say out of your fly attractor.
abramsteve
New Member
Hey that IRAQIRESISTANCE guy sounds like the bloke I ignored at uni...
He was so smart... :nono
BRING BACK THE IOWAS!!! As much as I love those beautiful battlewagons, after many an argument, Ive come to the conclusion that it would be a waste of time and more importantly money (unfortunatley). Maybe build new ones...????
Agree with you on the usefulness (or lack of) of small stealth ships GF, but could you tell us more about the big picture? I would have thought that the protection of the carrier, the most important asset for sea control, would have been vital, and above all else. The best way to go about this however is another story.
Definatley not a fan of a ASW version of the V-22, just a massive maintainence hassle, I dont know this, but I would also assume it would take up more space than an S-3? Then again Ive heard space aboard isnt really an issue these days...
He was so smart... :nono
BRING BACK THE IOWAS!!! As much as I love those beautiful battlewagons, after many an argument, Ive come to the conclusion that it would be a waste of time and more importantly money (unfortunatley). Maybe build new ones...????
Agree with you on the usefulness (or lack of) of small stealth ships GF, but could you tell us more about the big picture? I would have thought that the protection of the carrier, the most important asset for sea control, would have been vital, and above all else. The best way to go about this however is another story.
Definatley not a fan of a ASW version of the V-22, just a massive maintainence hassle, I dont know this, but I would also assume it would take up more space than an S-3? Then again Ive heard space aboard isnt really an issue these days...
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #27
I'd opt for the S-3 anyday, but I think the opportunity to bring them back may have passed.
Yet in regards a V-22 ASW variant, would it not offer both the superior performance and payload capacity of a fixed wing, while also having the hover capability of a Sea King/Hawk for sonar-dipping and loiter??
Not sure on any down-wash issues however that may effect/negate this.
Yet in regards a V-22 ASW variant, would it not offer both the superior performance and payload capacity of a fixed wing, while also having the hover capability of a Sea King/Hawk for sonar-dipping and loiter??
Not sure on any down-wash issues however that may effect/negate this.
While Gf-0012 is musing on how to enlighten us - there is no irony here, as I would like to read his take on things - as always - I would like to inject my musings.
US ASW capability has seemingly dropped violently in the last decade:
1. Surfaceships being retired.
2. Airborne ASW assets retired.
3. Deep antisub-mines retired.
4. LA class is not being replaced by Seawolfs on a one for one basis.
5. SOSUS chain falling into disrepair.
Against that:
A. A russian sub-force, though very much reduced relative to its heyday; but still a force to bereconed with - if only because some of them are carrying SLBM.
B. A growing Chinese force, though they have much to learn, with ambitions.
C. Every Tom, Dick and Harry getting AIP subs.
D. A halved US fleet compared to Reagans day, giving each ship a much larger space to cover. Plus entering into shallow water - which gives still more space to cover pr. ship.
This contradiction can in my view not be explained with collective and consistent idiocy in the USNavy - not alone.
The very fact that the US submariners do not tell what they are doing is in itself an indication of activity - and mind you - of an activity that is not quite the same as it has always been.
My guess is that there is a new system out there on the ocean bottom that will:
I) Locate all subs with very high precision - something akin to radar and independend of noises from the subs themselves. This would explain the decay in search capability - Apparently the host of Orions are not needed anymore - and those still in active serve do not have to find the nasties - they'll go directly for the kill and not waste time intruding on whales pillow talk and shrimps domestic disputes.
II) A method of communicating with subs that will allow thenm to be controlled like interceptor aircraft.
Now lets put on our tin-foil thinking cap - yes the one with the propeller on - and go back to basics:
Suppose you have an array of microphones and a source of noise some way form this array.
Then the sound will arrive at the microphones at different times - just like the old artillery system for locating enemy batteries.
Now turn this on its head: If you emit a noise emission from the reverse microphones (loud-speakers) on an object, this object will reflect that noise just as if it had produced it itself. Thus a even the most quite sub will emit noise and given enough microphones/loudspeakers you will be able to pinpoint that sub.
If you get advanced: If you emit a phased noise, by delaying the emission from the loudspeakers in a preplanned way, they will arrive (for the nitpickers: TWO) at one specific point - that is your own sub - some time later - this emission can be made so quiert that it can be heard - and give meaning - only at this specific point.
Thus your own sub could proceed to the enemy sub at best silent speed and intercept.
But this is only the scotch speaking ......
US ASW capability has seemingly dropped violently in the last decade:
1. Surfaceships being retired.
2. Airborne ASW assets retired.
3. Deep antisub-mines retired.
4. LA class is not being replaced by Seawolfs on a one for one basis.
5. SOSUS chain falling into disrepair.
Against that:
A. A russian sub-force, though very much reduced relative to its heyday; but still a force to bereconed with - if only because some of them are carrying SLBM.
B. A growing Chinese force, though they have much to learn, with ambitions.
C. Every Tom, Dick and Harry getting AIP subs.
D. A halved US fleet compared to Reagans day, giving each ship a much larger space to cover. Plus entering into shallow water - which gives still more space to cover pr. ship.
This contradiction can in my view not be explained with collective and consistent idiocy in the USNavy - not alone.
The very fact that the US submariners do not tell what they are doing is in itself an indication of activity - and mind you - of an activity that is not quite the same as it has always been.
My guess is that there is a new system out there on the ocean bottom that will:
I) Locate all subs with very high precision - something akin to radar and independend of noises from the subs themselves. This would explain the decay in search capability - Apparently the host of Orions are not needed anymore - and those still in active serve do not have to find the nasties - they'll go directly for the kill and not waste time intruding on whales pillow talk and shrimps domestic disputes.
II) A method of communicating with subs that will allow thenm to be controlled like interceptor aircraft.
Now lets put on our tin-foil thinking cap - yes the one with the propeller on - and go back to basics:
Suppose you have an array of microphones and a source of noise some way form this array.
Then the sound will arrive at the microphones at different times - just like the old artillery system for locating enemy batteries.
Now turn this on its head: If you emit a noise emission from the reverse microphones (loud-speakers) on an object, this object will reflect that noise just as if it had produced it itself. Thus a even the most quite sub will emit noise and given enough microphones/loudspeakers you will be able to pinpoint that sub.
If you get advanced: If you emit a phased noise, by delaying the emission from the loudspeakers in a preplanned way, they will arrive (for the nitpickers: TWO) at one specific point - that is your own sub - some time later - this emission can be made so quiert that it can be heard - and give meaning - only at this specific point.
Thus your own sub could proceed to the enemy sub at best silent speed and intercept.
But this is only the scotch speaking ......
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
Great thread Ths, hate to be picky but the LA's are being replaced by the Virginia's not Seawolf and at this time only the non VLS Boats. On the SOSUS line falling into disrepair I suppose it can be argued that it is not needed, is there a similar system in the Pacific or plans for one?
Robsta: I took the Seawolf as it is a killer SSN, where the Virginia is more of an artilleryship moving in instead of the BB (next thing some jerk argues the IOWA is the perfect ship for hunting penguins on Greenland).
More to the point, Robsta: Very acute observation on Your part. It seems like undersea warfare - on this account too - is changing in character as much as in volume:
From Ohio's and Los Angeles'es to Seawolfs and Virginias.
If the "scientific research" of Vædderen is anything to go by, I think the major emphasis is to cut the connection between the Russian fleets.
They have been doing research around Cape Town (which with consideration to the distance to Antarctica is probably only surveillance) - and was visited by Rear-Admiral Wang (a man with a prodigious travel itiniary - probably the best indicator of something going down).
At the moment Vædderen is mucking about in the waters near Broome, Australia (as if anything was near Broome) and they plan sailing to Tasmania, where our crown prince is taking a holiday (crown princess convieniently from Tasmania - Dear Freddy does have a tendency to overdo things).
Next on the itinerary is the waters south of Cape Horn (which might be the reason Vædderen is the ship of choice - she is used to extreemely bad weather). Then back to Denmark with an extensive collection of very strange and newly discovered fish for the conservationalists to worry about.
As You so acutely point out: What about the Russian Pacific Fleet and the Chinese for that matter? Both are conspicious by their absence. This leads a paranoid soul like me to suppose the Yanks have something particularly nasty in store for them - a hint might be that they are starting to operate with carrier groups - I don't know.
Either Pentagon is the worlds largest lunatic asylum (always an option) or something important is going down in these years. I for one will take council from paranoia.
More to the point, Robsta: Very acute observation on Your part. It seems like undersea warfare - on this account too - is changing in character as much as in volume:
From Ohio's and Los Angeles'es to Seawolfs and Virginias.
If the "scientific research" of Vædderen is anything to go by, I think the major emphasis is to cut the connection between the Russian fleets.
They have been doing research around Cape Town (which with consideration to the distance to Antarctica is probably only surveillance) - and was visited by Rear-Admiral Wang (a man with a prodigious travel itiniary - probably the best indicator of something going down).
At the moment Vædderen is mucking about in the waters near Broome, Australia (as if anything was near Broome) and they plan sailing to Tasmania, where our crown prince is taking a holiday (crown princess convieniently from Tasmania - Dear Freddy does have a tendency to overdo things).
Next on the itinerary is the waters south of Cape Horn (which might be the reason Vædderen is the ship of choice - she is used to extreemely bad weather). Then back to Denmark with an extensive collection of very strange and newly discovered fish for the conservationalists to worry about.
As You so acutely point out: What about the Russian Pacific Fleet and the Chinese for that matter? Both are conspicious by their absence. This leads a paranoid soul like me to suppose the Yanks have something particularly nasty in store for them - a hint might be that they are starting to operate with carrier groups - I don't know.
Either Pentagon is the worlds largest lunatic asylum (always an option) or something important is going down in these years. I for one will take council from paranoia.
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Say what?:
THS:
"Virginia is more of an artilleryship moving in instead of the BB.."
This is news to me. And also from my knowledge the USN and ALL the respected naval analysts Ive consulted .
Care to enlighten me how this is so?
So then I can in turn enlighten the people in the USN I know and those respected analysts I consult.
Thanks
Rick
THS:
"Virginia is more of an artilleryship moving in instead of the BB.."
This is news to me. And also from my knowledge the USN and ALL the respected naval analysts Ive consulted .
Care to enlighten me how this is so?
So then I can in turn enlighten the people in the USN I know and those respected analysts I consult.
Thanks
Rick
I mean the Virginia are carrying quite a number of cruise missiles - this will give the heavy firesupport needed, not so much in tons dropped on the enemy but in kiloes poked in the eye.
In the fireplan for an invasion, the Virgina's can take out key targets, that would other wise be assigned to BB's.
If you give them the coordinates of a target of opportunity - I should be very surprised if they can't punch in those coordinates quickly - and send the little bird on its way.
In the fireplan for an invasion, the Virgina's can take out key targets, that would other wise be assigned to BB's.
If you give them the coordinates of a target of opportunity - I should be very surprised if they can't punch in those coordinates quickly - and send the little bird on its way.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
You are thinking of the Ohio-class SSGN's.
Grand Danois: Them too.
Actually i meant to come with a snide remark to the romantics that still see a role for the BB's - if only because they were so expensive to build.
The world has moved on: I don't know how expensive it is to manufacture 16" shells today, but my guess is that they will be as expensive as a repeat order of cruise-missiles and why try to blast your way through feets of concrete, if you can blow in the door - possibly with a second missile going through the hole the first one made??
The greater reality is that the USA is keeping its hands around the throat of the Russian bear as firmly as ever untill the capability to destroy american cities is gone for ever.
The incident with the Chinese sub appearing at an embarassing moment and place is to me not so much an indication of lack of ability to track and kill these boats. Ask yourself: What good would have come out of trying to warn it? It would have continued anyhow. Sink it? At a moment when the USA and China are cooperating to persuade North Korea to cease and desist???
As it is the Chinese has come away with nothing but a PR shot similar to the ones the embassy hands out. China does not know for how long that boat was followed, they don't know which weapon were directed against it - if any.
The only damage is a couple of selfappointed "experts" has written a number of tedious coloums.
Actually i meant to come with a snide remark to the romantics that still see a role for the BB's - if only because they were so expensive to build.
The world has moved on: I don't know how expensive it is to manufacture 16" shells today, but my guess is that they will be as expensive as a repeat order of cruise-missiles and why try to blast your way through feets of concrete, if you can blow in the door - possibly with a second missile going through the hole the first one made??
The greater reality is that the USA is keeping its hands around the throat of the Russian bear as firmly as ever untill the capability to destroy american cities is gone for ever.
The incident with the Chinese sub appearing at an embarassing moment and place is to me not so much an indication of lack of ability to track and kill these boats. Ask yourself: What good would have come out of trying to warn it? It would have continued anyhow. Sink it? At a moment when the USA and China are cooperating to persuade North Korea to cease and desist???
As it is the Chinese has come away with nothing but a PR shot similar to the ones the embassy hands out. China does not know for how long that boat was followed, they don't know which weapon were directed against it - if any.
The only damage is a couple of selfappointed "experts" has written a number of tedious coloums.
"I mean the Virginia are carrying quite a number of cruise missiles"
The same amount as the VLS LA class and the Seawolf class although that class does not launch them vertically.
In fact the Seawolf can carry more than the Virginia class if the powers that be so choose. AFAIK.
But seeing how there are only two with the other configured for Sp Op its probably a moot point.
OTOH describing the Virginia as a battleship replacement rather than a "killer SSN" is far,far from truthful.
Also a fact is that the CG 47 class CGs and AB class DDG have far more capacity to carry Tomahawks than any SSN.
But I dont here anyone calling them battleship replacements.
Or at least I hope I dont.
LOL
The same amount as the VLS LA class and the Seawolf class although that class does not launch them vertically.
In fact the Seawolf can carry more than the Virginia class if the powers that be so choose. AFAIK.
But seeing how there are only two with the other configured for Sp Op its probably a moot point.
OTOH describing the Virginia as a battleship replacement rather than a "killer SSN" is far,far from truthful.
Also a fact is that the CG 47 class CGs and AB class DDG have far more capacity to carry Tomahawks than any SSN.
But I dont here anyone calling them battleship replacements.
Or at least I hope I dont.
LOL
IraqiResistance
New Member
Admin: Comments deleted.
This is unacceptable as well as being off topic.
This is not a political forum.
This is unacceptable as well as being off topic.
This is not a political forum.
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
I am a big fan of conspiracy theories. But that is because of their absurdness and the effort people put into believing them.
Wow, we got a Frenchman on this site, welcome.
You have got to be bloody joking. They could capture OBL and have him admit it, and someone would say he was brainwashed by monkeys who are the real puppets behind it all(damn monkeys)
Ok, lets look at the problem with conspiracys first, it is impossible for everyone to come to the same conclusion on an event of this magnitude, of course there will be skeptics, others trying to find holes in the matter, its been going on for years, the great thing about the "moon landings" is that, for such an event to be staged, there is a hell of a lot of people who can keep a secret, don't you think?
For the planes to be military air refuelers, their would need to be a record of the planes lost, as they would be built somewhere, meaning they would need to have paperwork, people who built it, Pilots who flew it, and the USAF have not lost Air re-fuelers to the timeframe that could be used as fact, You cannot make these planes disappear, along with pilots. And what about the Civilian airlines, do you really just go and shoot them all?
Heres some reading which can answer your idiotic, and i do use that word correctly, ideas
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
I also appreciate this being a Anglo-American war, this would require the UK to be in on the planning, you really think the UK Govt. would not reveal this, or its military, they are not all hush hush, this is not Yes minister here, the Civil Service does not control Britain, pollies would be jumping over themselves to get in on the "truth", which they havn't, funny that.
I could spend the next hour or so pointing out the faults in the whole Anglo-America Aggression, and this new "pearl Harbour"- an insult to those who died at PH and in WW2, if ever, but its pointless, most people who believe this rubbish will forever carry on about it, shame that, but history always has to have more then one interpretation, these arguments make as much sense as the Denial of the Holocaust
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