A "European Army" is now a real possibility

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
I think the European army angle is the least of our worries if things play out the way you'd expect if individual country veto disappeared.
Definitely, it's worrying when the comments from some of the people putting this forward seem to be indirectly referencing the UK when they talk about single members dictating EU defence policy.

The idea of a majority pass will happen I reckon in one form or another, but i'm still of an advocate of "You only deploy if you want to go in"
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm more worried about the EU overruling other areas which may be more immediately concerning. Giving the EU an army would be like giving a fish a bicycle.
 

USAF77

Banned Member
Im still perplexed my friend. Google "aliens visiting Earth" and you'll find "unsettling statistics". Heres a real statistic for you. Millions of Brit and Yank young men, I was one, spent years of their Lives together defending foreign Lands either in self defense or the defense of Freedom.

I wouldnt read the Links anyway. The International media is a dangerous thing and I filter everything I read and hear. Objectivity is a hard thing to find nowadays. And besides I want to believe there was some reason I spent years in Europe and The Mideast when The Soviets were in town.


There is no doubt that Britain & America have done profound things together in the past, most of which neither country would have been able to accomplish by themselves. It's just the 'special relationship' is becoming more & more onsided. I can't put up links, I've not posted enough times, but if you google 'extradition between uk & usa imbalance' you'll read some unsettling statistics. Well at least unsettling if you're a Brit. I'm not anti America, but I'm openly cautious in how the friendship between the two countries are progressing. Which why I feel Britain's only real choice is to become stronger proponents of the EU.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Indeed - historically, both countries have tended to come running when t'other has picked up the phone -- and it's been a mutually rewarding relationship. It's worth us exploring more solid opportunities with key European players (France and Germany spring to mind) but they needn't (and shouldn't) exclude the UK working with the US as we have in the past.

Nor do I have much faith in the concept of a European common foreign policy, let alone a defence policy becoming apparent in the near term.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Does anyone really see France giving up their independent foriegn policy or military? Just look at the history of France and NATO.

Besides, this is just a call to set up a committee to draft a proposal to circulate for discussion. An actual EU military is years, possibly decades, away.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would suggest to most people on this thread to go and dig out the treaty governing the European Defence Community.

The Gaullists shot it down in parliament in 1953, but it was a rather solid proposal at a joint European army developed over a period of three years. And it included national reservations for using troops for their own purposes. Sure, we'd have to remove the "German restrictions", add a peacetime national component for strategic assets and lower the "basic units" from divisions to brigades - but otherwise we could pretty much implement it immediately and straight off.

The UK wouldn't be part of that of course. Neither Spain. Or certain other nations that tend to... vote opposing to the central European bloc.
 

keithktam

New Member
I'm just going to let you all digest that one, personally i'm furious. The following is a key point



I know posting articles without commentary is frowned upon, but i'm at a loss for words at this, I just hope to God it's not true.
can Great Britain simply depart from the EU?? I heard some talk about it, ever since the pound and Euro

sorry for bad quote, blame the no link for newbie thing which the link ain't mine to start off with...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #28
can Great Britain simply depart from the EU?? I heard some talk about it, ever since the pound and Euro

sorry for bad quote, blame the no link for newbie thing which the link ain't mine to start off with...
All you needed was a " ] " on the end of the
RobWilliams;251979 part and that'd come up a treat as the [/quote said:
end part was fine. Just watch out with the backspace key ;)

As to leaving the EU, It's one of those things that's widely thrown around the UK very often and that is turning slightly too far into politics.

Debating a EU Army/defence policy isn't as political as discussion on leaving the Euro which this forum isn't too keen on doing, things generally heat up more when politics is involved so be careful ;)
 

Beatmaster

New Member
Actually a EU Army has its benefits and a significant benefit is the costs reduction that will be spread over the participating nations.
There are loads of nations in the EU who are do have a significant industry and a even better skill set, but due economic problems these nations are forced to make cuts in army departments where a "smart" person would never want to make cuts.
A clear example is the Dutch MBT Battalions, ones there where the pride of the Dutch Army...today they are a memory of better times, the Navy is another clear example ones it was a very capable force within the EU and NATO and today its stuck with 4 frigates and 2 or 3 subs.
Bringing the EU nations into on army would seriously enhance the Army capabilities, Military Industrial capabilities and would give the EU a more credible footprint (Army wise)
As some have mentioned today the EU is a desk show where every nation has its own say and its own reasons to dispute virtually everything in the EU.
So bureaucracy is a nightmare in the EU, and imo it makes the EU look like a bunch of rich spoiled kids with to much time and candy.

The Netherlands did set a example by signing a extended treaty with Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany to integrate the army capabilities under on HQ where each nation has its own representatives joining the Staff.
So far it has given the mentioned nations a credible boost to their overall capabilities and it has reduced the costs significantly.
I am not sure if you guys remember this but it has been discussed some months ago here of Def talk.
Most back then did agree on the fact that this whole idea could be taken as a example how to form a EU based Army under one unified control and staff.
So it can be done and the red tape where sort of eliminated due the fact that at the beginning each of the nations made it clear that the joined HQ-Staff must NOT find itself strangled by redtape, and they have made significant efforts to make sure that political elements could not directly minimize the effectiveness of this joined operation. (I do not have specifics of this but i am sure that most older Def talkers could explain it better)

Anyway to get back at the topic, the EU redtape machine is a really serious problem where to much people have a say and where to many key figures have a dispute with actions taken by the EU.
This has been a problem since the fall of the great wall and it seems that it will haunt the EU for another decade.
But on paper the EU itself has everything it would need to play with the big boys, It has the Economics, It has the Industry, resources and it has the research capabilities/knowledge pool to be on a pretty much equal foot with the US.

Most do see the EU as a joke and as a incapable "idea" but in the past the EU has proven it can and will, The major problem with the EU is neither de options available as they are plenty, its more the red tape and the constant power struggle of the smaller nations who like to keep some sort of power, while bigger nations like France, Germany and the UK seem to forget that without the smaller nations they would be done for sooner or later.
The delicate balance between EU member states is fragile and often member nations where allowed to cut way to much under the idea that bigger nations would jump in, while some of these nations actually do not need to cut down.
Now today you see loads of member states who MUST cut to meet the insane standards of the EU.
Again conflicting red tape and interests are a serious danger to a EU army idea.
Personally i believe that if you become part of the EU then you must start thinking and acting as being a part of the EU, which will point all the faces in the right direction and will cut down on the red tape.
But to many nations within the EU should be given a choice:
Either play the EU ball, or ring out because the EU as a "system" can only work if nations are willing to give and take and to make decisions that sometimes will hurt their own nation in order to help the EU, and this will apply vice versa.
The problem with the bigger nations is that France, UK, and Germany seem to forget that they are the 3 major forces within the EU that give the EU its balls, but at the same time its the Achilles heel of the EU because their constant political bickering is exactly the reason why the EU is a sort of fail.
As for the smaller nations they should be part of the EU in every way, not just because of their money contribution.
Imo its either EU all the way, or nothing at all.
And i believe that this would be the solution to make a EU army, and even a EU head government possible as has been explained many times in the past.

There is so much good in the EU and its has serious options and capabilities (Way way more then most others give us credit for) Some might even think that the EU is a collective of weak nations and that it cannot play with the big boys, well personally i would say that if the Redtape problems are being solved and the EU finds a new " goal" where all the faces are pointing in the same direction then the EU can play with the top tier of the big boys.

But if i am wrong with my one sided commend please correct me.
 

the concerned

Active Member
The trouble is you would have to combine all the armed forces of each country and theres a problem with that. How would fisheries protection be handled and what about control of the UK and Frances nuclear detterents.I,m sure this would horrify most.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
There's a very healthy opportunity to create a shared capability for air to air refuelling, border security and air lift, as well as AEW - those are all things we can jointly agree on, already co-operate on and have some duplication of effort already.

In the same sense that we already share AEW aircraft as NATO assets, does it really make sense for every nation individually to procure, support, maintain and crew an MPA for instance?

I know we're all twitchy about the idea of a European *army* but a European defence policy and defence force might be a *good* thing ?
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #32
I know we're all twitchy about the idea of a European *army* but a European defence policy and defence force might be a *good* thing ?
This is where I believe we could actually benefit Europe, especially in terms of naval forces.

Imagine if all the larger EU countries had designated RTFG (Response force task group) like the RN ready to rapidly deploy. That'd truely be an awesome piece of muscle.

I for one am VERY keen to develop the RN-MN relationship with the plan of being able to deploy a French/UK task force. Imagine that, a QE and CdG with all associated escorts and subs. . . .*drool*
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Deciding on which products the unified forces will use is going to be not just an exercise in national pride, but about retaining jobs.

For example: There are 4 major tank manufacturers in the EU (Germany, France, the UK, and Poland), which one gets to survive?

The decisions will probably be made by political horse trading, not by capabilities.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Three - the UK closed the only tank manufacturing facility we own a year or so ago - we're running too few (far too few) tanks to justify retaining the capability for domestic demand.

In fact, it's been argued that re-gunning CR2 would be more expensive than scrapping the lot and buying some second hand Leos.

That leaves the French and the Germans in any serious kind of competition and my money is on ze Germans. No urgency on that one as every one in Europe has enough tanks or too many.

In fact, we've already done this gag for aircraft - all those countries used to have aircraft manufacturers, now the lot is put together in bits with contracts placed for sensors, engines etc. with one assembly line, and a workshare for the involved parties. I suspect that's your model right there.

Let's stick with the things that Europe/Nato doesn't have enough of or suffers from duplication - AAR, airlift, MPA.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Personally, i think the EU would run quite well if simply every member simply contributed 0.2% of their population and 1.0% of their GDP to a joint European Defense Force - EDC-style in major units, i.e. a level of national brigade contributions and upwards. That gives us a solid one-million-man army with a $175 billion budget - a force that keeps us in the #2 spot worldwide capability-wise.

With current planned force structures, that pretty much gives a balanced number sheet to most EU members (with in a few cases, such as Germany, significant additional spending that can be channeled into domestic military-related R&D sponsoring or low-personnel, high-cost assets such as strategic recon), while e.g. the UK and France would still both be able to maintain about 100,000 men and about $35 billion in budget for their nuclear assets and global reach LOA. Poland for example could also keep room for an extra division (25,000 men, $4 billion) that they can waste on their precious US missile shield cooperation.

Only a handful countries, mostly the smaller NATO protectorates in New Europe (and, notably, foremost, Ireland), would have to raise their forces "a bit" to match that demand.
 

Robmauler

New Member
Hi guys, kind of a fresh voice on these forums so don’t assume i don’t know what i’m on about! Haha. Basically this is an area of study I focused on for my dissertation last year at university. Primarily, can the EU ever maintain and expand an armed forces in the three spectrums: Naval, Air and Land. I mean i don’t want to come across as bias but this report took me the best part of 2 months to do so I do have facts and webpages, testimonials etc. If anyone wants to read them! Like some of you have said the EU’s 3 major powers are probably the major stumbling block for a universal military indeed this is the case, the political wrangling between each country will prevent any action against one’s interest. Therefore, the call for a properEU president not like Van Rompuy, militarily makes sense. However one avenue explored by RUSI and Janes (i kind of stole the idea) is an EU pool of critical assets: each member state forfeit certain assets to be commanded by an EU force, under the overarching rule of the President. Leaving the command of assets with an executive body enables the EU to act unilaterally and thus prevent certain countries sitting a fight out: Germany in Libya. Whilst to many this would seem a forfeit of sovereignity, however member states could still hold onto many of their own assets and be able to act independently of one another.

One of the groupings envisaged was a naval pooling of Frigates (these are the ones I used in my dissertation) obviously not all the countries but still an example of it.

UK Type 23 3
France La Fayerre 3
Spain Alvaro De bazan 1
Germany Brandenburg 2
Holland - DDe zeven Provincien 1
Italy - Maestrale 2
Denmark – Absalon 1

The numbers are the contributions. You can already see the size of a Frigate force 13 Frigates. Equal to the Royal Navy’s. Although certain countries contribute less, relatively forces remain similar relative to one another.

Obviously, the stumbling point for this is crews to operate, retaining command of the vessel etc. We contacted Baroness Ashton’s office, regarding budgeting for future military forces, and the aide reply (probably not too reliable but interesting) was
“We have theoretically budgeted for the maintenance, operation and ultimate purchase of assets from our member states, though this power has not been exercised as of yet, we are looking at ways of implementing this within the framework of the Lisbon Treaty’s future amendments.”

WOAH is what we thought. Though it makes sense in a way purchasing assets with money gained already from each member states is effectively keeping money within the EU. So not too farfetched. I agree this is quite a lot to swallow so i apologies but i hope you enjoy it and don’t be too harsh on it! I did get a First for it though! Let me know what you guys think!

*I do think though that the quickest way forward though is more frameworks bilaterally: UK and France as an example, as well as industrial cooperation: BAE-EADS.
:):):):)
 

My2Cents

Active Member
UK Type 23 3
France La Fayerre 3
Spain Alvaro De bazan 1
Germany Brandenburg 2
Holland - DDe zeven Provincien 1
Italy - Maestrale 2
Denmark – Absalon 1
The logistics of supporting 6 different vessel designs and weapon fits will be ‘interesting’.

How did you envision there vessels would be deployed, and how many would be available at any given time?
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Actually the idea has some merit.

Really it isn't much more than an extension of NATO. Having greater commonality between members in terms of weapons, training etc should prove to be a lot more efficient.

Modern weapons systems have also become horrendously expensive to the point where often no single nation can afford to develop them.

Even the US has had to seek partners to develop weapons systems such as the F-35.

In the future you might see a much greater expansion of this concept with countries like the US, Canada, Australia and Japan coming aboard to form kind of a western alliance.
 

Robmauler

New Member
The logistics of supporting 6 different vessel designs and weapon fits will be ‘interesting’.

How did you envision there vessels would be deployed, and how many would be available at any given time?
absolutely right, obviously huge differences would be present, however my study was more based on the nature of "if this was dealt with" as in commonality issues were not an essential part :) but yeah it would be very "interesting"
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Ermm, SNMG and SNMCMG combine a variety of designs and systems all the time.
 
Top