2008-2009 Gaza Conflict: Discussion & Analysis

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Durendal

Banned Member
Mod edit: Text deleted for violations of the forum rules and the specific requirements in the opening post of this thread. Poster banned for 1 week for making repeated posts along the same theme over a two hour period in this thread.
-Preceptor
 
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Durendal

Banned Member
Mod edit: Text deleted for violations of the forum rules and the specific requirements in the opening post of this thread. Poster banned for 1 week for making repeated posts along the same theme over a two hour period in this thread.
-Preceptor
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Preceptor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thread re-opened following Mod discussion. Posts made to this thread have to follow the forum rules as well as the criteria Pathfinder-X laid down when opening the thread.

My aim for opening this thread is to debate what tactical and strategic objectives each side is attempting to accompolish and their motivation behind it.
Failure to abide by this will likely result in actions taken against the poster, and/or closure of the thread itself.
-Preceptor
 

dragonfire

New Member
Truce declared and violated

A truce was declared unilateraly by Israel and followed by the Hamas movement and other militant groups called a week-long truce of their own. However the truce has been violated by both parties in minor incidents as such, Israel is now pulling back to positions held as of 3 Jan 09. Wonder how this is going to help the identification of the rocket pods, maybe the strategy is that of threat of massive response which they are capable of, however i think the idea should perhaps be that of a demillitarized zone which is administered by UN on either side which also prevents the rocket launches against Israel by way covering up the range of the rockets, otherwise this is a temp solution - the very next time israel is aggravated by some local commander of Hamas through rocket attacks then the israelis attack again which easily cause loss of life to civilians and other innocent people

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-01/19/content_10684701.htm

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gs90Wad9DuaogJj9QDPVHfoe2aTw
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Mcbasher welcome to defencetalk. I see this is your first post. Please do post in the Introduction thread in the appropriate forum so you can introduce yourself tell us a little bit about yourself. Please note that it has been specifically expressed that this thread is for military analysis of the recent conflict. Not politics, or sociological analysis. The reason is that it tends to generate flaming, and immature posts, regardless of original intent. Please stay on topic. Thanks.
 

flanx

New Member
Is anybody here knows the terms of the ceasefire? i cant find it on Google.

Probably it is not yet in public.
 

Manfred2

New Member
More rockets were fired today, anyone surprised?

The air-strikes seem to be a ridiculous waste of resources, to me. Artillery would be much cheaper, and far more damaging to whatever passes for the spirit of the Hamas cadre.

There must be a few old 175mm barrels and ammunition left in Israeli depots, why not use them up, and fire 100 rounds back in exchange for every rocket?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Errrh, actually there are roughly 1,5 million people inside Gaza.

Why not just end the discussion with a nuclear warhead? :rolleyes:
 

wimpymouse

Banned Member
Errrh, actually there are roughly 1,5 million people inside Gaza.

Why not just end the discussion with a nuclear warhead? :rolleyes:
Yeah, I'm with you, why even bother with 100 shells and waiting for the next rocket. Just nuke them preemptively, bigtime or with small tactical artillery shells that they have stored. Finally a final sollution for all the Israeli suffering.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Come on guys. I know you're being sarcastic, but other people might not, and we don't want more angry replies. I understand it might seem childish, but this is a sensetive topic.

On a sidenote I'd like to mention that initial casualty estimates may have been wrong. An Italian journalist, the first independent press in the sector, says that there were at most 500-600 casualties, and that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
 

Manfred2

New Member
I have no sympathy for Hamas at all.

From a purely military point of view- instead of getting defensive weapons, such as mines, ATGMs, AAA and radar... these guys imported thousands of missiles and rockets who's only use was to blanket civilian areas with random hits.

They picked a fight, lost it, and went crying to the media and the UN when they failed to back up thier own bluster. Cry me a river!
 

Tavarisch

New Member
Your right, I don't know what the F these sand ni**ers are doing in this left over wasted place called Palestine anyway. It's not like they're fighting against an illegal occupation that's been going on since 1967. I mean, the UN would have told the Israelis to leave Palestine for the last 42 years if they were in fact doing something wrong.


So I agree with you, they should totally stay within their prison walls and drum on some legally imported mines, and let the Israelis continue with their business in peace. Otherwise, the 1.5 million armed Hamas members in Gaza will have to suffer the consequenses of their quest for freedom.

Their unjust rebelliousness would never be possible if zionists owned just as large amount of the western media as those stinking camel jockies do today. After all, it's the media that fuels the thoughts among ordinary people in our countries. And imagine if the US wasn't there to continously singlehandidly back the Palestinians in the Security Counsil every time they commited their attrocities and war crimes against the peaceful Israelis.

I have no sympathy for the Palestinians eather.
I'm not trying to fuel a religious war here but,

You guys have to understand that Palestine houses the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the 3rd Holiest place in Islam. I wouldn't give it up. It's very unfair for the Israels to close it and contest it, when it clearly is within Palestine's boundaries. Let's also note that Arabs were here way before the Jews of Europe we placed here after the Second World War. (Effing Hitler) Ever since before christ Arabs had lived here, in this desert.

Plus, the retaliation of Israel to these attacks was completely disproportionate. 13 deaths (civs and mil included) compared to 1000++ civilian deaths and many more wounded? I can understand that Israel, from a military point of view, is under constant threat from Arab attack and as a security policy, the IDF Doctrine states that to defend the country, the threat is to be eliminated in totality. No remnants of the enemy force must remain. But it is fact that Arab armies are bound to fail because they use outdated Soviet equipment left over from the Cold War. Iraq and Hezbollah are examples. Israel, on the other hand, have these luxurious Longbows and Merkavas that have been combating tanks and weapons that were conceived to fight enemies like the M60A1. Very much out of scale right there.

I can understand that this can be analogous to poking a bear in the eye, you'd expect the bear to maul you to death. But let us be reminded that Israel is in fact, not a bear, but a state of people more than capable of rationalizing and understanding. They need to understand why Hamas launches rockets, and that is because Hamas sees Israel as a state that threatens them. How would you feel if I put you in a house, and set up checkpoints everywhere? Question you about where you go? Stop you from using your toilet? It's your house, but you can't use any of the facilities there. They are subject to security policies they never approved. Sure, Hamas is not right in launching rockets at Israel, but Israel isn't right for bombing UN schools, shooting medics and killing civilians who were not part of the catalysts of this unnecessary and controversial war.

You are also wrong about the UN (Sorry if I am getting to the political side of this, it's just a bit misguided to say the UN didn't say anything) There are UN countries that condemn these acts and call for Israel to cease and desist. The thing is, the big brother of Israel, called the U S of A has special Veto powers that override calls for this to stop. Malaysia is a UN country that condemns this, but can't do anything because it is not part of the Permanent Security Council. Sarkozy went to the extent to say it was wrong. (Kind of shocked, seeing as how the French used to treat North African countries like shit) To say that the UN has not said anything is wrong; it has spoken but it is never heard. Clearly, because the Media is controlled by, of course, the United States who I've stated before is the bigger brother of Israel.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
To all, if another user posts a racist comment report it and that user will be dealt with by the mods, don't respond to it directly.
-Thank you.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have no sympathy for Hamas at all.

From a purely military point of view- instead of getting defensive weapons, such as mines, ATGMs, AAA and radar... these guys imported thousands of missiles and rockets who's only use was to blanket civilian areas with random hits.

They picked a fight, lost it, and went crying to the media and the UN when they failed to back up thier own bluster. Cry me a river!
No sympathy for Hamas, but there are no weapons that are purely defensive or offensive. For example if Hamas had enough rockets to do serious damage to Israel, they could be a deterrent, or could be used to strike military installations and deal serious damage to Isralie offensive capabilities. On the other hand the way they're being used is what is offensive. I don't think they can afford radars, and I believe they do have AAA in the form of Dushkas, and the like, and ATGMs (just not as many as Hezbollah). Truth is that from a military perspective, rockets are the only means they have of retaliating in depth. In a modern perspective they seem like terrorist weapons, but they are hardly any less justified then WWII-era artillery barrages that flattened entire city blocks.
 

bruceedwards

New Member
In my (admittedly, uneducated!) opinion 1300-odd civilian casualties is not a great number, given the amount of ordinance being dropped into heavily populated areas. (Still horrible, however).

I read an interesting article recently which claimed the latest Israeli airstrike was preceded by the IDF phoning the area they were going to hit and saying 'if you have weapons in your house, leave'.

Link below:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052260.html

I take this to indicate the Israeli's have shifted the focus of their operation to allow for less collateral damage.
 

dragonfire

New Member
News Update

Israeli planes hit Gaza after rocket fire
Reuters in Gaza, 12:40pm, Feb 04, 2009

Israeli aircraft bombed targets in southern Gaza early on Wednesday (HK time) in response to a rocket attack which hit the Israeli port city of Ashkelon earlier in the day, damaging cars.
There were no immediate reports of casualties after Israeli warplanes struck at smuggling tunnels connecting Gaza with Egypt and fired a missile at a training camp of the armed wing of the Islamist Hamas movement, which rules the enclave.

http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCM...nVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&ss=Asia+&+World&s=News
-
This Tit for tat actions from either side is only going to further escalate things from the ceasefire mode, lets hope n pray for minimum casualitites on either side
 

fltworthy

New Member
I take this to indicate the Israeli's have shifted the focus of their operation to allow for less collateral damage.
No, the Israelis were telephoning buildings from early on in the operation to warn civilians to clear out of the way. This isn't new.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24855309-2,00.html

The civilian casualty count would have been much higher if the Israelis had not taken this and many other preventative measures. It also would have been a lot lower if Hamas had not insisted on stockpiling its weapons in mosques and apartment buildings, and firing them from school yards.

I can recall from early-on in the Gaza operation, accounts of the Israelis telephoning a building in advance to warn the civilians to escape, only to have Hamas order civilians to climb on the rooftop to deter the Israelis from bombing their weapons store houses. The Israelis, in turn, reacted by sending a smaller, precision missile to "knock" at the corner of the building, as a further warning for the civilians to evacuate - before the site was actually bombed.

These and other measures that the Israelis took to minimize civilian casualties have been recognized by those who are actually familiar with military operations in urban areas. The interview below is with a British Colonel who led UK forces in Afghanistan. In his words, "I don't think that there has ever been a time in the history of warfare, when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza."
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw"]YouTube - BBC: Former British Army Colonel Richard Kemp Discusses IDF Gaza Ops[/ame]
 
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