intergration of F35B on US CVN's

harryriedl

Active Member
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i was thinking as all western navy's owing aircraft carriers except the French will be buying F35B for their vessels the
  • the USMC are buying F35B to replace the f18 and the Av-8
  • the Royal navy is buying the F35B
  • the Italians are buying the F35B
  • the Spanish are supposed to be buying F35B but they aren't in the programs membership so im not sure

well as the USMC are replaceing the hornets with the F35B i was wondering how the USN [with gritted teeth as they would prefer the USMC bought the F35Cs] will be intergeneration STOVL F35B into air wings of CATOBAR aircraft.

will the F35B be the first JSF to reach OCU status?
 

AegisFC

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http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/04/defense_stovl_jsf_070430m/

Navy argues against Marine variant of JSF

Corps defends JFF STOVL against assertions outlined in document
By Christopher P. Cavas - Staff writer
Posted : Tuesday May 1, 2007 13:58:00 EDT

Despite public support by Pentagon and Navy leaders for the short-take-off/vertical-landing version of the Joint Strike Fighter, debates about the planned acquisition and operation of the F-35B continue behind the scenes — worrying Marine Corps officials and potential foreign customers who are counting on the versatile aircraft.

Navy officials have set no public deadline to settle JSF procurement plans, but a current Navy briefing document provides a rare window on the debate. It argues that the STOVL version should not fly as part of a carrier air wing.

The JSF program is slated to produce three variants: the F-35A, a conventional takeoff version; the F-35C, strengthened for carrier takeoffs and landings, and the F-35B, fitted with a liftfan that allows it to perform the crucial Marine missions of operating from amphibious ships and primitive bases in forward areas.

The plane’s biggest customers — the Navy and Air Force — are more enthusiastic about the higher-performance F-35A and C versions. But the five-year-old practice of including a Marine fighter squadron with most carrier air wings means putting the F-35B, with its slightly different shape and maintenance requirements, aboard the carriers.

In the briefing document, Navy tactical-aviation planners argue that the Marines should drop the F-35B in favor of the F-35C, at least for carrier-based units. They cite the differing operating characteristics of the STOVL aircraft and note the C’s superiority in range and weapons load.

“STOVL sub-optimizes CVW [carrier air wing] operations and capabilities,” Navy planners assert in the document, a copy of which was obtained by Defense News. “STOVL, while capable of CVN operations, should not be integrated into the CVW as part of a standard construct.”

Shopping plans
Officials in the Navy Department, which includes the Navy and Marine Corps, are trying to decide how many of each variant to buy. The Navy plans to buy a total of 680: 360 F-35Cs and 320 F-35Bs, although the Marines have a requirement for 420 JSFs.

Early-production F-35As are already five months into flight tests, while the first F-35B is scheduled to take to the air in 2008, and the F-35C in 2009.

In the document, Navy planners say the STOVL aircraft will have “thermal, pressure and acoustic effects more dramatic than models predict” and refer to issues certifying Marine V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft for shipboard operations. Flight deck movement will be restricted by blast from the aircraft, the planners wrote, and launching and recovering each STOVL F-35 will add two minutes to the carrier’s flight cycles.

Marine planners are digging in against these assertions, claiming built-in biases by Navy aviators against STOVL operations. They also say the briefing misuses and mischaracterizes numerous facts.

In the briefing, the Navy aviation planners list more than a dozen ways the F-35B short-takeoff-and-landing version will “sub-optimize” aircraft-carrier operations. Among other things, they say the F-35B will:

* Offer poorer capability and sustainability at a higher price than the carrier-optimized F-35C. The Marines say the STOVL aircraft outperforms the C model in all kinds of missions except carrier-based ones.

* Reduce flexibility in carrier-deck operations. Marines: That won’t be known until flight tests begin.

* Carry only 70 percent as much fuel as the F-35C. Marines: That advantage will be reduced by the F-35C’s heavier weight, by the -B’s ability to fly from forward bases, and by the fact that the STOVL version doesn’t need to carry backup fuel in case it can’t trap aboard a carrier.

* Not carry a 2,000-pound bomb in its internal bomb bay. Marines: The F-35B can carry one externally, and weapon is needed for only 15 percent of missions anyway.

* Lack an internally carried, stand-off weapon that can hit enemy radar. Marines: That could be remedied with the under-development Small Diameter Bomb.

* Lack an internally carried, stand-off weapon that can hit enemy ships. Marines: It carriers the Joint Stand-Off Weapon externally.

The use of Marine fighter squadrons in Navy carrier wings is mandated under the Navy-Marine Corps Tactical Air Integration plan, approved in 2004. By including Marine strike fighters in regular carrier deployment, each service was able to reduce the number of squadrons and aircraft. The TacAir plan allowed planners to cut the total procurement of F-35s and F/A-18 Super Hornets by nearly 500 aircraft, saving — according to the Navy in 2004 — about $35 billion.

The Marines, committed to an “all-STOVL force,” intend to replace the current crop of AV-8B Harrier jumpjets and F/A-18 Hornets with the F-35B. Replacement of the Harrier with the JSF is not at issue. Rather, the problem facing Navy planners is how to manage the STOVL F-35Bs in a wing otherwise composed of F-35Cs, F/A-18E and -F Super Hornets and EA-18G Growlers.

The Navy is committed throughout its aviation community to “necking down” the number of different types of aircraft to a handful of basic models. Last year, the strike fighter community finished their switch from the F-14 Tomcat to an all-F/A-18 force. Several observers note that introducing the F-35 into the -18 mix could strike Navy planners as counter-productive, and figuring how to use yet another version of the F-35 would only compound perceived problems.

That notion struck one aviation analyst as silly.

“I’ve never seen any definitive analysis that says a STOVL aircraft can’t be successfully integrated into a carrier wing,” he said. “I think what you have is this sort of culture in the Navy that says we just don’t do it that way. I’m not convinced [STOVL aircraft] can’t work with air wings.”

At the other end of the cultural debate, the Marines argue they didn’t join up to fly from carriers.

“The surface story of blue and green working together is great,” said Dakota Wood, a former Marine officer who is now an analyst with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. “But the reality is that [in a carrier wing] you’re on Navy time, and the Marine Corps ground commander is saying, where is my tac air?”

The comparisons of the two JSF versions also struck Wood as “an unfair comparison. Each version has been optimized for the environment in which it’s to be employed.”

“The legitimate argument,” he said, “is how you’re going to use the airplane.”

Ships Riding on JSF
And while the Navy and Marine Corps continue their debate over the JSF, at least two members of the 11-nation JSF partnership have a far deeper interest in the survival of the STOVL plane.

Britain is making an enormous investment — $7.7 billion in ship construction costs alone — in building two 65,000-metric-ton aircraft carriers intended to operate the F-35B. Later this year, Italy expects to commission the 27,000-metric-ton carrier Cavour, specifically intended to operate JSFs as a replacement for its aging carrier-capable AV-8B Harriers.

The planned 131-aircraft Italian JSF order — 22 STOVLs and 109 conventional aircraft for the Air Force — is strictly linked to the need to replace the Harriers, Italian Defense Undersecretary Lorenzo Forcieri said Jan. 16.

The British are even more dependent on the F-35B, as they have chosen to build their two carriers without the steam catapults planned for the French Navy’s similar PA2 ship.

Evidence of British concern for the health of the F-35B program was published by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) April 27. MoD said it “remained fully committed to the carrier program” but added, “The department continues to closely monitor the U.S. STOVL requirements and the performance of the STOVL variant.”

With no other STOVL strike fighter in development, loss of the F-35B would mean British planners could choose to install catapults — early design work on the ships accounted for this possibility — and decide between the French Rafale, F/A-18 or another competitor.

British support for the F-35B is seen by many observers as a key element in the survival of the variant in last year’s Quadrennial Defense Review (QDR). Although the QDR was completed over a year ago, the British carrier program remains a major ingredient in the STOVL program.

A British government official said Pentagon officials “periodically seek updates from the British government on the status of the carrier program — a move that some have suggested has less to do with Britain’s interest in building the ships than whether London is wavering on the raison d’être for the JSF STOVL program.”

Debate goes on
Inside the Pentagon, Navy and Marine Corps planners continue to debate the issue, which soon could move to Capitol Hill. Sources close to service leaders Adm. Mike Mullen of the Navy and Gen. James Conway of the Marine Corps say both officers are seeking to avoid public disagreement on the JSF program and other issues and are working to find common ground.

“This is a 20-year discussion,” said an industry analyst. “It’s not going to be over just because the Navy did a briefing.”
If Rumsfield didn't force the Navy-Marine Corps Tactical Air Integration plan on the Navy and Marines this wouldn't be an issue.
 

FiredForEffect

New Member
"If Rumsfield didn't force the Navy-Marine Corps Tactical Air Integration plan on the Navy and Marines this wouldn't be an issue."

Agreed. There is a reason the USMC has organic air assets. And that reason is not to just be another carrier-based asset.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The UK's commitment to the CVF basically green lights the F-35B.

UK, Italy are definately going to operate it, with Spain (maybe 16) and Australia (maybe as high as 20) highly likely just really a question of when and how many.

The F-35B is a extremely capable plane, far more capable than the Harrier and only a few % less capable than the F-35A and C. It will enable navies with smaller carriers (and the USMC) to operate a plane with very simular capabilities to a large CATOBAR carrier. Stealthy, awesome flight controls and electric tricks, internal payload, fantastic strike capability.

B's are a much more flexable plane, but your trade ultimate performance for being a all rounder. But in the type of Marine and small navy situations, being a all rounder is far *FAR* more important than being very good at say A2A.

Its different strokes for different folks. F-35C's for the navy, and F-35B's for the USMC.
 

Tasman

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Verified Defense Pro
"If Rumsfield didn't force the Navy-Marine Corps Tactical Air Integration plan on the Navy and Marines this wouldn't be an issue."

Agreed. There is a reason the USMC has organic air assets. And that reason is not to just be another carrier-based asset.
My main concern is that an over dependence on USMC squadrons to round out the carrier air wings could result in them being 'tied' to their parent carrier and therefore unavailable to support marines ashore. The idea of occasional marine corps fighter deployments to hone skills in carrier landings/take offs that would be necessary if USMC squadrons are going to deploy by carrier to forward areas, is reasonable. But making marine squadrons part of the permanent air wing must surely reduce their flexibility.

Cheers
 
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Tasman

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The UK's commitment to the CVF basically green lights the F-35B.

UK, Italy are definately going to operate it, with Spain (maybe 16) and Australia (maybe as high as 20) highly likely just really a question of when and how many.
I hope you are right about the possibility of Australia getting F-35Bs. However, much as I would love to see an Australian purchase to provide a combat aircraft capable of operating from the LHDs I don't think we can say that it is 'highly likely'. It doesn't appear to be on the RAAF's current wish list and the RAN and Army will need to present a strong and united case to have a chance of getting it included in the Australian F-35 order. The army may well prefer to concentrate on getting the extra armed recce and transport helos it needs and may consider that an expanded force of Tigers would provide all the close air support necessary. If it is considered that the LHDs or forces deployed from them are likely to operate in areas where air or missile attack is a possibility and US or land based RAAF aircraft would be unable to provide adequate cover, the case for the F-35B would be improved.

At this stage I believe that the navy will be happy just to get the LHDs into service but I will be surprised and disappointed if it does not present a strong case for the F-35B in the next few years.

I agree with you, however, that Spain will almost certainly join the USMC, the UK and Italy, in operating the F-35B.

Re integration of the F-35B version into USN CVNs I think the USMC will prefer to maintain their independence and fly them from the LHDs and LHAs. I just can't see much benefit in them operating from the big deck carriers. The only time I would put them on a CVN would be a temporary deployment whilst being ferried to a forward area. But with the large number of LHD/LHA type units in the USN I can't imagine a huge demand for this.


Cheers
 

riksavage

Banned Member
F35B’s bring so much to the table for smaller navies, particularly in coalition operations. The recent example of US Harriers operating off an RN carrier is a prime example of what we can expect to see in the future with the F35B. I can visualise Spanish and Italian F35B’s operating off the new UK carriers and visa-versa with UK F35B's operating from the new Italian carrier. Instead of NATO ships operating together in the Gulf we will see F35B capable vessels of one nation hosting aircraft and pilots from another.
 

harryriedl

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I hope you are right about the possibility of Australia getting F-35Bs. However, much as I would love to see an Australian purchase to provide a combat aircraft capable of operating from the LHDs I don't think we can say that it is 'highly likely'. It doesn't appear to be on the RAAF's current wish list and the RAN and Army will need to present a strong and united case to have a chance of getting it included in the Australian F-35 order. The army may well prefer to concentrate on getting the extra armed recce and transport helos it needs and may consider that an expanded force of Tigers would provide all the close air support necessary. If it is considered that the LHDs or forces deployed from them are likely to operate in areas where air or missile attack is a possibility and US or land based RAAF aircraft would be unable to provide adequate cover, the case for the F-35B would be improved.

At this stage I believe that the navy will be happy just to get the LHDs into service but I will be surprised and disappointed if it does not present a strong case for the F-35B in the next few years.

I agree with you, however, that Spain will almost certainly join the USMC, the UK and Italy, in operating the F-35B.

Re integration of the F-35B version into USN CVNs I think the USMC will prefer to maintain their independence and fly them from the LHDs and LHAs. I just can't see much benefit in them operating from the big deck carriers. The only time I would put them on a CVN would be a temporary deployment whilst being ferried to a forward area. But with the large number of LHD/LHA type units in the USN I can't imagine a huge demand for this.


Cheers
thanks for all the views on the integration of F35B. but that comment that the marines will want to put their hornet squadrons [which will transition to the F35B] on to the LHD the LHD seem to have enough trouble oprateing AV-8 and carrying the expeditionary force as well as the tac air and their will have to be some squadrons still based on CVN however little the USN and the USMC like the system. despite the numbers of LHD the marines still don't have a proper carrier so they are always relent on the super carriers

the USN need the marine air wings because they lack numbers and are need to round off the CVN air wings

and the marine corps need the USN CVN because they lack sutibul ships this state should be improved the LHD[r] the 50,000 tons replacement for the tarwra class that should create a sutibul platform the F35B but the marines are buying huge amounts of F35B
 

Tasman

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Verified Defense Pro
thanks for all the views on the integration of F35B. but that comment that the marines will want to put their hornet squadrons [which will transition to the F35B] on to the LHD the LHD seem to have enough trouble oprateing AV-8 and carrying the expeditionary force as well as the tac air and their will have to be some squadrons still based on CVN however little the USN and the USMC like the system. despite the numbers of LHD the marines still don't have a proper carrier so they are always relent on the super carriers

the USN need the marine air wings because they lack numbers and are need to round off the CVN air wings

and the marine corps need the USN CVN because they lack sutibul ships this state should be improved the LHD[r] the 50,000 tons replacement for the tarwra class that should create a sutibul platform the F35B but the marines are buying huge amounts of F35B

I did not say that the Marines will want to put their Hornet squadrons on the LHDs or LHAs. In fact I didn't mention the Hornet at all. The Hornet can't operate at sea from anything other than a big deck carrier equipped with catapults and arrester wires. I said that I believe the Marines would prefer to operate the F-35Bs , a VSTOL aircraft, from these ships (in the same way they operate the Harriers now). Whilst it is true that the USN needs the USMC squadrons (Hornets transitioning to F-35s) to round out their carrier air wings this is only because the number of USN fighter squadrons has been cut back as a cost cutting measure. My argument is that it would be far better if the navy had enough F-35C and SH squadrons to fully man the CVNs and that the USMC squadrons should only embark on these ships for specific missions in support of marines deployed ashore. I qualified this by saying that I support the practice of a couple of USMC squadrons embarking on the big carriers to develop the skills needed to operate from these ships. This was the previous practice.

Cheers
 
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harryriedl

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I did not say that the Marines will want to put their Hornet squadrons on the LHDs or LHAs. In fact I didn't mention the Hornet at all. The Hornet can't operate at sea from anything other than a big deck carrier equipped with catapults and arrester wires. I said that I believe the Marines would prefer to operate the F-35Bs , a VSTOL aircraft, from these ships (in the same way they operate the Harriers now). Whilst it is true that the USN needs the USMC squadrons (Hornets transitioning to F-35s) to round out their carrier air wings this is only because the number of USN fighter squadrons has been cut back as a cost cutting measure. My argument is that it would be far better if the navy had enough F-35C and SH squadrons to fully man the CVNs and that the USMC squadrons should only embark on these ships for specific missions in support of marines deployed ashore. I qualified this by saying that I support the practice of a couple of USMC squadrons embarking on the big carriers to develop the skills needed to operate from these ships. This was the previous practice.

Cheers
do you mean during the cold war days when their were plenty of aircraft.
and use the marine air power which would be attached to the USN air wings on the CVN when marines were deployed with the CVN's on operations:confused: .

shame all the old forestalls and midways are long gone they could be very handy for the marines
 

Tasman

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do you mean during the cold war days when their were plenty of aircraft.
and use the marine air power which would be attached to the USN air wings on the CVN when marines were deployed with the CVN's on operations:confused: .

shame all the old forestalls and midways are long gone they could be very handy for the marines
Before the present practice of requiring the Marines to provide one of the 4 fighter/strike squadrons embarked on each CVN the navy provided the entire carrier air wing. The Forrestals used to deploy with 2 fighter, 2 (sometimes 3) light attack and 1 heavy attack squadron as its standard air combat component (plus a full range of ASW, AEW, EW, recce, refuelling and rescue aircraft and helos). The total air wing could exceed 90 aircraft. The USMC fighter and attack squadrons did not permanently deploy on the carriers but some squadrons rotated to make up for a shortfall in the number of navy squadrons or to increase the airgroup in surge situations. This also gave the marines valuable experience in operating from carriers. Marine squadrons could also be ferried in a carrier to get to an operational area. Other contingency possibilities for the marines would have included use of the training carrier to embark marine squadrons in an emergency but usually the USMC squadrons were shore based. The USMC would, no doubt, have loved having a CV or CVN assigned to it. However, I am unaware of this ever happening although, IIRC, there was discussion in the early 1980s about the possibility of the Essex class carrier Oriskany being re-activated from reserve to support marine operations.

Before the advent of jet aircraft the marines provided an alternative airgroup for the small escort carriers. During the Korean War several escort carriers landed their navy ASW aircraft and embarked a marine fighter squadron to provide close air support for troops ashore. Unfortunately the small carriers were unable to operate jets and it was not until the Harrier came along that the marines were able to again regularly deploy fixed wing aircraft from their 'own' dedicated ships, the LPHs, LHAs and LHDs. Other naval fighters, like the FA-18 Hornet were usually shore based although some would be based aboard a CV/CVN as mentioned above.

The current practice of having the marines provide a quarter of the fighters aboard each carrier enabled the navy to drastically reduce the number of fighter squadrons. Economically this makes sense but it would also make it more risky to detach squadrons to support marines ashore as it would leave the carriers with a reduced fighter complement. It may be, however, that studies of likely scenarios have indicated that this is an acceptable position.

I agree that it is a pity that one or more of the older carriers has not been retained for possible use by the USMC but even the USN has limitations re its budget and manning levels.

Cheers
 

alexsa

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The UK's commitment to the CVF basically green lights the F-35B.

UK, Italy are definately going to operate it, with Spain (maybe 16) and Australia (maybe as high as 20) highly likely just really a question of when and how many.

.
I hope you are right, but, what is you source for the suggestion that Australia may get up to 20? At best I understand there have been mutterings around the edges but nothing substancial from defence in regards to the F-35B. Current announcements seem to indicate the entire purchase is still based around the F-35A.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yes, there has been no offical announcement about Australia purchasing the F-35B. It is however very commited to the F-35 program, it *DOES* want regional servicing to be based here, it will have two of the most capable small F-35 carriers going (bar the Cavour which is designed as a dedicated carrier). It does want a blue water capable navy, with the strength to operate independantly of the USN and the RN.

Spain hasn't even commited to the F-35 program. Spain will no doubt wait it out and see. Italy herself is not sure how many F-35B's she will get either. Britain threatend to pull out of the project entirely! Australia is in a simular state regarding F-35B purchases as any other country. Even the USMC isn't sure how it will pan out.

I would say there are certainly signs Australia is heading towards the F-35B route. For example the origional tender for the Canberra Class from Natavia had the skijump removed. Several illistrations, a large model was made. However it is now back on the ship and the tender.

What would Australia have to benift from announcing F-35B purchase 10 years before likely delivery date? Nothing, the media/opposition would jump on every F-35B delay or compare F-35A and F-35B in Telegraph fold out sections on how the government is buying an inferior plane for greater cost. APA would pipe up all over it. It would be far smarter to have the LHD's undergoing trials, F-35B's already a known quanity in other navies and then announce the highly successful purchase of the F-35B.

Even better, perform several proving exercises with US and RN forces including F-35B's, and study what the optimal number would be to operate from the LHD. Or from forward bases around the pacific or PNG.

Australia may purchase from existing USN/USMC orders much like the Superhornet deal if all parties agree.

Nothing is in concrete, but I would say its just a matter of say 2015 or 2020.

I also think the USMC should concider beefing up its LHD fixed wing capabilities with say a skijump. The larger size of the new LHD's should go some way to mitigating the additional burdens of F-35B over the harrier (greater weight, size, etc).
 

Tasman

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I would say there are certainly signs Australia is heading towards the F-35B route. For example the origional tender for the Canberra Class from Natavia had the skijump removed. Several illistrations, a large model was made. However it is now back on the ship and the tender.
The inclusion of the ski jump certainly increases Australia's future options and, IMO, improves the chance of the F-35B being acquired . It means that the LHDs will be able to:
1. Operate larger UAVs more easily,
2. Cross deck USMC or RN Harriers or (later) F-35Bs, and
3. Operate Australian F-35Bs (drawn from an RAAF, RAN or Joint RAN/RAAF squadron).

What would Australia have to benift from announcing F-35B purchase 10 years before likely delivery date? Nothing, the media/opposition would jump on every F-35B delay or compare F-35A and F-35B in Telegraph fold out sections on how the government is buying an inferior plane for greater cost. APA would pipe up all over it. It would be far smarter to have the LHD's undergoing trials, F-35B's already a known quanity in other navies and then announce the highly successful purchase of the F-35B.

Even better, perform several proving exercises with US and RN forces including F-35B's, and study what the optimal number would be to operate from the LHD. Or from forward bases around the pacific or PNG.

I agree completely with the above comments. The last thing the navy needs is to stir up the old 'aircraft carrier' debate, especially going into a new election. If there is a change of government it needs to be able to make a case to a new government that has not backed itself into a corner by declaring pre-election opposition to Australia getting a new aircraft carrier. That is what happened in 1982 which resulted in cancellation of plans to replace the old carrier Melbourne.

I believe it is highly likely that US or UK F-35Bs will operate from the decks of the Australian LHDs. The success of recent Australian army helo operations from the USN LHD, USS Boxer, demonstrated the value of a big deck LHD compared with a more limited helo platform like that found on the LPAs. I am sure this helped convince the army to support navy moves to acquire the Canberra class LHDs rather than the smaller amphibious ships originally projected.


I also think the USMC should concider beefing up its LHD fixed wing capabilities with say a skijump. The larger size of the new LHD's should go some way to mitigating the additional burdens of F-35B over the harrier (greater weight, size, etc).

At present the USN seems to believe that it will be able to operate F-35Bs from the new LHAs and the Wasp class LHDs without a ski jump. I guess the large size of the USN ships makes this possible.

If the USMC sticks to its plans and buys only the F-35B version of the Lightning the aircraft will also deploy regularly from the CVNs (1 squadron on each). The article posted by AegisFC suggests that the navy would prefer not to have the VSTOL version on its CVNs. As well as some performance shortfalls, compared with the F-35C, I suspect the navy is worried about simultaneously operating VSTOL and CTOL aircraft from the CVN flight decks. Is anyone able to comment on operational problems that this might cause?

Cheers
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hot exhaust gases. different landing approaches, different take off styles.

The exhaust gases may be an issue, as from my poor USN CV experience they have lots of people on deck doing lots of different things at a high tempo of sorties. Could get awkward?

F-35A and B are very simular however. B would allow launching if the carriers ever had dammaged catapults (or say untried/unreliable e-catapults??!)
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
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Yes, there has been no offical announcement about Australia purchasing the F-35B.
Nor is there anywhere within the Australian capability development process an official concept defining a STOVL strike fighter. This is only an idea held by lobby groups – the Naval League – and individuals.

I would say there are certainly signs Australia is heading towards the F-35B route. For example the origional tender for the Canberra Class from Natavia had the skijump removed. Several illistrations, a large model was made. However it is now back on the ship and the tender.
This is wrong. The Request For Tender did not stipulate a ski-jump it was in there as a capability option that was not essential. The RFT called for ship design and subsequent build strategies – the lowest cost, the highest capability with lowest cost and the highest capability with highest Australian build content. The winning solution was from the middle category. It actually would have cost the Government more if they wanted the ‘Juan Carlos I’ class without the ski-jump because of the cost of redesign.

Nothing is in concrete, but I would say its just a matter of say 2015 or 2020.
First part is wrong second part right. There is nothing at all in Defence to acquire the F-35B. In 2015-20 things might be different…

I also think the USMC should concider beefing up its LHD fixed wing capabilities with say a skijump. The larger size of the new LHD's should go some way to mitigating the additional burdens of F-35B over the harrier (greater weight, size, etc).
It’s not the way the USMC do business. Firstly their LHD decks are longer than others and the ‘Queen Elizabeth’ class will not use full deck length for takeoff. So they get a better run up before the end of the deck. Secondly a ski-jump will take away 2-3 helicopter takeoff/landing points which the USMC doesn’t think is worth the benefit.

I am sure this helped convince the army to support navy moves to acquire the Canberra class LHDs rather than the smaller amphibious ships originally projected.
It wasn’t like that at all. The defining of the size of the ships came from back-planning what the size and logistical requirements of the landing force was. This is what grew the size to the ~20,000 tonne ship able to carry 1,000 passengers and launch simultaneously 6 helicopters. The ADAS requirement is still actually for 3 ships but because of budget limits only 2 ships have been ordered.
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
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I guess there is no way the F35B could be catapult launched to save fuel and decrease flight deck confusion?
Because its wing is smaller it would have to have some down angle on the engine and/or the lift fan going. This would create the much feared down blast. Having copped a blast of pooled rain in the face, super heated by aircraft engines while on a flight deck I can tell you its no laughing matter. And this was just a C/D taxing (the pilot had given it a bit of throttle but still nothing like an F135 pointed down!).
 

Tasman

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It wasn’t like that at all. The defining of the size of the ships came from back-planning what the size and logistical requirements of the landing force was. This is what grew the size to the ~20,000 tonne ship able to carry 1,000 passengers and launch simultaneously 6 helicopters. The ADAS requirement is still actually for 3 ships but because of budget limits only 2 ships have been ordered.
I accept what you are saying here about how the decision to call tenders for the 20,000 + tonne LHDs came about. As you are aware, though, the decision to acquire the LHDs was strongly opposed by some vocal 'defence experts' within academic and media circles, who argued for smaller ships. I believe that the army deployment of Blackhawks from USS Boxer, demonstrated how effective an LHD was compared with ships like Kanimbla and Manoora, and showed the advantages of a big flight deck to media covering the exercises. Photos of ten Australian Army Blackhawks on the deck of Boxer were widely published. IMO, it was important to maintain a campaign to reinforce the decision to acquire the larger ships right up until the contract was awarded.

AFAIK it is still the intention to acquire a third 'sealift' ship to support amphibious operations.

In the same way I believe that cross decking USMC and/or RN F-35Bs could be used to demonstrate the value of this capability in an effort to win wide support within the ADF and the public for Australian operations of its own F-35Bs. Maybe this will never happen in which case the LHDs will still be an extremely valuable ADF and coalition asset. Certainly the larger size of the F-35B compared with the Harrier AV-8B would make the presence of two extra decks available to support USMC aircraft a welcome addition during coalition operations, particularly if the USN convinces the Marines to buy the F-35C for its Hornet replacement and restricts the deployment of VSTOL aircraft from its CVNs.

Cheers
 
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