Greek Katsonis class (Type 214) Submarine Problems?
This is a discussion on Greek Katsonis class (Type 214) Submarine Problems? within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; I'm hearing rumors about problems with these new submarines. Particularly with the AIP system operating extremely hot and causing significant ...
Greek Katsonis class (Type 214) Submarine Problems?
I'm hearing rumors about problems with these new submarines. Particularly with the AIP system operating extremely hot and causing significant discomfort to crew.
I'm hearing rumors about problems with these new submarines. Particularly with the AIP system operating extremely hot and causing significant discomfort to crew.
Anyone else hearing this?
Guy
I've read the same on Jane's, but can't add anything to it.
Our 2 first U212A (Todaro and Sciré) took 9 months more than planned to become operational though, so I wonder if the delays aren't linked to the time needed to fully master the AIP system. It is after all breakthrough innovation...
Fantasma posted the below post in "Greece Turkey Arms Race" topic:
Quote:
The sub U-214 Papanikolis was to be accepted by 30th of September 2005 then 30th September 2006 but still has severe problems and thus is not going to be accepted and maybe the whole project of the rest constructions and upgrades will be surely affected.
1.Lack of stability while sailing in rough sea conditions ranging from 35-58 degrees
2.The AIP system is out of function after a few hours of sailing
3.The sub is not that "quite" as supposed to be so easier to be detected
4.Problems with the battle system "ISUS"
5.When the sub is sailing more than 3 knots the periscope is trembling so there are troubles in order to lock on targets.
6.Sea water is leaking in the hydraulic systems.
Fantasma posted the below post in "Greece Turkey Arms Race" topic:
Oh my... the list is awful, it's more than AIP integration that is at stake !
May be HDW consortium has gone too fast on local building & assembling at the shipyards in Greece. No offence here, good ships (such as the latest FACs or the Etna replenisher) come out of those shipyards, but latest technology SSKs are among the most difficult products that can be built !!
Let's hope that all the problems are fixed fast.
Unfortunately, this first vessel was built in Germany.
Aargh I wasn't aware of it. The HDW Greek shipyards didn't have any role in assembly of modules or something similar ?
The U214 has already been built in Germany for Israel and the 3 units delivered had no issues whatsoever !
The submarines built for Israel are Type 800's, which are something like close cousins of Type 212. In any case, Papanikolis of Type 214 design is the very first boat that have been building. For a new design, difficulties are normal, but the list contains problems that are far more than expectable ones. So far I have read different theories regarding the situation, one of them is HDW really encountered these problems and pushing hard to solve them in order to save this contract and possible ones in the future (most probably Turkish 4 x AIP submarine contest, in which HDW is the most favorite contender); and the other one is Greek MoD is intentionally exagerrating the problems in order to find more budget for the project or lower the costs by making public pressure on HDW; which I highly doubt that is the case.
But the bottom line is, Papanikolis is at least one year late to enter service and there are some problems in the project, be them minor or major ones.
Hmm with Scorpene and/or Marlin from DCN and Gotland from Sweden as competitors, HDW has better fix what's wrong real fast...
What about other U214s around the world ? I know South Korea is building 3+ since 2003 and sea trials on the 1st one should start shortly...
If I look at SK where no such problems are known I would say that HDW just made a monday boat.
I think that these problems are no problems of the class itself but "just" bad construction of this special boat.
HDW should better be fast at solving these problems if it wants to keep its good reputation.
Shall I throw some eggs or tomatos onto them for you greeks?
Is there a target date for the boats coming back to HDW or are these problems going to be fixed in Greece?
Maybe this would be a chance for some photos.
Last edited by Waylander; October 30th, 2006 at 03:30 PM.
Reason: My fingers are too fat :D
Shall I throw some eggs or tomatos onto them for you greeks?
Dear Waylander,
after you are done with rotten eggs, please make sure you throw some flowers for us Turks too.
Anyway i also cant imagine this to be a design failure. If that is indeed the case , and the current situation with France, will Turkey request Type 212? or go for Gotland? This is a complex situation and imo it shows how correct the Turkish Navy was to select the Type 209 in the last tender instead of Type 214.
If I look at SK where no such problems are known I would say that HDW just made a monday boat.
I think that these problems are no problems of the class itself but "just" bad construction of this special boat.
HDW should better be fast at solving these problems if it wants to keep its good reputation.
Shall I throw some eggs or tomatos onto them for you greeks?
Is there a target date for the boats coming back to HDW or are these problems going to be fixed in Greece?
Maybe this would be a chance for some photos.
Latest developement is that HDW finally accepted (till now HDW did not accept that there were severe flaws) that there are 6 flaws on the boat and committed to fix these mishaps and suggests solutions to these problems..greek navy have postponed the official delivery to the fleet by 30 of December 2007
Latest developement is that HDW finally accepted (till now HDW did not accept that there were severe flaws) that there are 6 flaws on the boat and committed to fix these mishaps and suggests solutions to these problems..greek navy have postponed the official delivery to the fleet by 30 of December 2007
Thks for the news. Does this mean the entire class of 4 boats will run a full year late vs forecasted ? I wonder how many penalties are paid in these circumstances by the supplier to the procuring government.
Thks for the news. Does this mean the entire class of 4 boats will run a full year late vs forecasted ? I wonder how many penalties are paid in these circumstances by the supplier to the procuring government.
cheers
The penalty was 210 million euros..the entire amount which was left to pay for the whole project..HDW denied the flaws negotiations started and the penalty dropped to 120 million euros right afterwards HDW accepted the flaws and committed to repair the flaws..from this amount the 90 million euros will be directed to Skaramangas Shipyards as payments for the works for the remaining boats
The penalty was 210 million euros..the entire amount which was left to pay for the whole project..HDW denied the flaws negotiations started and the penalty dropped to 120 million euros right afterwards HDW accepted the flaws and committed to repair the flaws..from this amount the 90 million euros will be directed to Skaramangas Shipyards as payments for the works for the remaining boats
Ouch, your MOD surely knows how to negotiate, I'm impressed !
Sure part of the money goes back to HDW for programme completion, but still a huge penalty
The penalty was 210 million euros..the entire amount which was left to pay for the whole project..HDW denied the flaws negotiations started and the penalty dropped to 120 million euros right afterwards HDW accepted the flaws and committed to repair the flaws..from this amount the 90 million euros will be directed to Skaramangas Shipyards as payments for the works for the remaining boats
As far as I know Skaramanga Shipyards belongs to HDW. So HDW will take 90 million Euros from one of its pockets and put it into another one (Skaramanga), and pay the remaining 30 million Euros to Greek MoD, right? Bottom line, 30 million Euros will be paid "outside".
Add to this the news from South Korea and Brazil, I think HDW is the one who made profit out of this.
