Greek Katsonis class (Type 214) Submarine Problems?
- Thread starter guystitt
- Start date
contedicavour
New Member
I've read the same on Jane's, but can't add anything to it.
Our 2 first U212A (Todaro and Sciré) took 9 months more than planned to become operational though, so I wonder if the delays aren't linked to the time needed to fully master the AIP system. It is after all breakthrough innovation...
cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Oh my... the list is awful, it's more than AIP integration that is at stake !
May be HDW consortium has gone too fast on local building & assembling at the shipyards in Greece. No offence here, good ships (such as the latest FACs or the Etna replenisher) come out of those shipyards, but latest technology SSKs are among the most difficult products that can be built !!
Let's hope that all the problems are fixed fast.
cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Aargh I wasn't aware of it. The HDW Greek shipyards didn't have any role in assembly of modules or something similar ?
The U214 has already been built in Germany for Israel and the 3 units delivered had no issues whatsoever !
cheers
The submarines built for Israel are Type 800's, which are something like close cousins of Type 212. In any case, Papanikolis of Type 214 design is the very first boat that have been building. For a new design, difficulties are normal, but the list contains problems that are far more than expectable ones. So far I have read different theories regarding the situation, one of them is HDW really encountered these problems and pushing hard to solve them in order to save this contract and possible ones in the future (most probably Turkish 4 x AIP submarine contest, in which HDW is the most favorite contender); and the other one is Greek MoD is intentionally exagerrating the problems in order to find more budget for the project or lower the costs by making public pressure on HDW; which I highly doubt that is the case.
But the bottom line is, Papanikolis is at least one year late to enter service and there are some problems in the project, be them minor or major ones.
But the bottom line is, Papanikolis is at least one year late to enter service and there are some problems in the project, be them minor or major ones.
contedicavour
New Member
Hmm with Scorpene and/or Marlin from DCN and Gotland from Sweden as competitors, HDW has better fix what's wrong real fast...
What about other U214s around the world ? I know South Korea is building 3+ since 2003 and sea trials on the 1st one should start shortly...
cheers
What about other U214s around the world ? I know South Korea is building 3+ since 2003 and sea trials on the 1st one should start shortly...
cheers
If I look at SK where no such problems are known I would say that HDW just made a monday boat.
I think that these problems are no problems of the class itself but "just" bad construction of this special boat.
HDW should better be fast at solving these problems if it wants to keep its good reputation.
Shall I throw some eggs or tomatos onto them for you greeks?
Is there a target date for the boats coming back to HDW or are these problems going to be fixed in Greece?
Maybe this would be a chance for some photos.
I think that these problems are no problems of the class itself but "just" bad construction of this special boat.
HDW should better be fast at solving these problems if it wants to keep its good reputation.
Shall I throw some eggs or tomatos onto them for you greeks?
Is there a target date for the boats coming back to HDW or are these problems going to be fixed in Greece?
Maybe this would be a chance for some photos.
Last edited:
Dear Waylander,Shall I throw some eggs or tomatos onto them for you greeks?
after you are done with rotten eggs, please make sure you throw some flowers for us Turks too.
Anyway i also cant imagine this to be a design failure. If that is indeed the case , and the current situation with France, will Turkey request Type 212? or go for Gotland? This is a complex situation and imo it shows how correct the Turkish Navy was to select the Type 209 in the last tender instead of Type 214.
Latest developement is that HDW finally accepted (till now HDW did not accept that there were severe flaws) that there are 6 flaws on the boat and committed to fix these mishaps and suggests solutions to these problems..greek navy have postponed the official delivery to the fleet by 30 of December 2007If I look at SK where no such problems are known I would say that HDW just made a monday boat.
I think that these problems are no problems of the class itself but "just" bad construction of this special boat.
HDW should better be fast at solving these problems if it wants to keep its good reputation.
Shall I throw some eggs or tomatos onto them for you greeks?
Is there a target date for the boats coming back to HDW or are these problems going to be fixed in Greece?
Maybe this would be a chance for some photos.
contedicavour
New Member
Thks for the news. Does this mean the entire class of 4 boats will run a full year late vs forecasted ? I wonder how many penalties are paid in these circumstances by the supplier to the procuring government.
cheers
The penalty was 210 million euros..the entire amount which was left to pay for the whole project..HDW denied the flaws negotiations started and the penalty dropped to 120 million euros right afterwards HDW accepted the flaws and committed to repair the flaws..from this amount the 90 million euros will be directed to Skaramangas Shipyards as payments for the works for the remaining boats
contedicavour
New Member
Ouch, your MOD surely knows how to negotiate, I'm impressed !
Sure part of the money goes back to HDW for programme completion, but still a huge penalty
cheers
As far as I know Skaramanga Shipyards belongs to HDW. So HDW will take 90 million Euros from one of its pockets and put it into another one (Skaramanga), and pay the remaining 30 million Euros to Greek MoD, right? Bottom line, 30 million Euros will be paid "outside".
Add to this the news from South Korea and Brazil, I think HDW is the one who made profit out of this.
Crap building seems the norm these days from ship builders. The first sub supplied to Australia was almost scrapped it was so badly built by Kockums. Would a Gotland export be any better. Look at Americas problems with its various programs. We had a large Spanish built fast ferry here in NZ a few years back from Navantia that spent more time having problems fixed than it spent in service. Our Navy tanker broke down on its delivery voyage, a pain with a single engine. Its poor lifeboat mechanism killed a sailor recently. Our multirole vessel doesn't meet expectations, in a heavy sea its sea boats get washed away, a design fault, it can only offload in calm seas, etc. Poor design and quality control seems rampart these days.