South Africa's Armed Forces situation?

Chino

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South Africa's armed forces used to be one of the top performers especially when it comes to land ops.

But is was predominantly led by white officers.

Now that the country is ruled by black South Africans, what is the situation? Has the military kept its level of performance at the same peak?
 

neil

New Member
Well it is true that the South African National Defence Force(SANDF as it is now known) is now totally racially integrated.

This has happened to such an extent that it has become a bit of an obesession. There are persistant rumours of, for instance, pilots being passed even after failing tests three times, just to get the racial quotas right.

On the whole the SANDF is still the strongest, best equipped, best balanced force south of the Sahara. Even though countries such as Angola match South Africa and even surpasses them in terms of numbers of people and equipment, the effectiveness of their armed forces remain in severe doubt, due to lack of training and operational equipment.

The SANDF performs annual large scale training exercises. The largest of wich is Exercise Seboka(wich is Army led, albeit with air and naval components). The Navy and Air Force also conduct annual force preparation exercises.

It is during these exercises, I believe, that the best opinion can be formed on the capabilities of the current SANDF. Observing these exercises in recent times have led me to believe that the armed forces are still well trained and certainly capable. On February 01st 2008(Air Force Day) for instance a large scale exercise was held in Pretoria, at Air Force base Zwartkop(an urban area).

During this display a mass flypast was performed including transports and fast jets. Hereafter what must have been about 150 paratroops were air dropped from transports and flown in by about ten helicopters. Herculus C130BZ's also performed combat landings at the base and unloaded special forces while attack helicopters and combat aircraft screamed overhead in simulated attacks.

Planning and executing such a task, in an urban environment no less, could have been no easy task.

So to sum up, yes, there are real problems. Lack of discipline; accusations of a sexual nature against South African troops on peace keeping duties in Central Africa; lack of young, fit, healthy troops; HIV\AIDS in the ranks; lack of adequate funding(for the past decade!) etc.
However, despite all of this, there are a lot of dedicated individuals, whom are very competent and professional, in the ranks. (An SA Navy submarine 'sank' an entire NATO fleet in an exercise last year; this has been discussed at length on this forum in another thread)

Is the SANDF as capable as the 'old' South African Defence Force'(especially in land warfare)? Probably not. Are they today, just another African force of rabble militia? A defenite NO!!!

The truth lies somewhere in between...
 
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Chino

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But there is, a noticeable drop from the almost elite force that it once was - is that basically what you're saying?

In terms of equipment procurement, there used to be an embargo that spurred local development. With this embargo lifted, what are some of SA's new purchases?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
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With this embargo lifted, what are some of SA's new purchases?
Long list. By orders, between 1993 and 2007:

Aircraft:
28 JAS-39 Gripen fighters
24 Hawk-120 jet trainers
60 PC-7 Turbo trainer aircraft
8 A400M transport aircraft (on order for delivery "2010-2014")
3 C-130B transport aircraft (+2 as spares)
1 PC-12 light transport aircraft
Helicopters:
30 A-109LUH helicopters (+10 option)
4 Super Lynx 300 helicopters (+2 option)
Ships:
4 Meko A200SAN frigates
4 Type 209/1400 submarines
4 Type 320 minesweepers (+2 as spares)
Vehicles:
264 Patria XC-360 IFVs (on order for delivery 2012+)
Other Systems:
Starstreak MANPADS
Milan ATGM
various radar systems (upgrades for FACs, ground-based air-defense)

Source: SIPRI
 

neil

New Member
Yes the arms embargo was lifted and Kato has covered the arms purchases by South Africa correctly(above). However South Africa did not buy any C130 aircraft since the 1960's. The South African Air Force did recieve five C130's from USA surplus stocks in the 90's for free.(Three of the -F variant and two of the -B variant.)

The -F variants were not taken into official use but the two -B variants were indeed added to the seven C130B's that were purchased new in the 60's. All nine these airframes have been upgraded to the C130BZ standard by Marshall Aerospace, Cambridge, UK. (Glass cockpits, structural strengthening etc.)

Yes the SADF of the previous government was indeed an 'elite' force and South African reconnaissance commandos(special forces) were world renouned.

South African special forces today are apparently very well equipped although details of this is scarce. On their competancy I cannot really comment.

But yes, one can certainly no longer say that the 'new' SANDF is an 'elite' force that ranks amongst the best of the best. The competancy of the general infantryman is probably what is the worst at this point. (Just by looking at them in the street, you can tell there's not much going on there.)
 

Chino

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When Mugabe sent his thugs to kick white farmers out of their farms, SA basically sat that one out and did nothing.

Would a SA under the old government have taken military actions to protect the Zimbabwean white farmers? Or would they still have stood aside?
 

Chino

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From what I can find on the internet, it seems to suggest that the Olifant (x250) remains the only MBT for South Africa.

It seems pretty modest to have 250 very old tanks. Is this due to the low threat level - as in no one will attempt an invasion?
 

Tempest

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When Mugabe sent his thugs to kick white farmers out of their farms, SA basically sat that one out and did nothing.

Would a SA under the old government have taken military actions to protect the Zimbabwean white farmers? Or would they still have stood aside?
South Africa supplied troops, equipment and money to Rhodesia when Mugabe had a guerilla force - Mugabe still came to power. I doubt very much that South Africa would have gone in to protect the white farmers. If South Africa was still under minority rule, the military balance in the region and politics would have been very different from today. I.e. Zimbabwe and other Frontline States scaled down on buying equipment once South Africa was on the path to democracy. E.g. Zimbabwe did not get the 48 x F-7s supported by 12 x Mig-29s, and 100% air defence radar coverage with redundancy with a point and regional SAMs.
 
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Zapp_Brannigan

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Having personally worked on army equipment at one of their big bases, I can honestly say that not a single person there I met was competent in their job, this is not a reason to stereotype the entire force. However after seeing first hand the state of the army and hearing stories first hand of how a 1000 assault rifles got "misplaced", it becomes quite hard not too.

Most of the equipment that they have was really good before the untrained apathetic crews got their hands on it. I particularly loved how a soldier just has to attend a course to become a qualified instructor, that fact that they fail every test at the course doesn't seem to matter.

Don't believe the numbers the army quotes about the number of "servicable" vehicles, there is an entire graveyard of "servicable" vehicles whose only function is to form a huge paperweight.

Additionally the troops like to joke semi seriously that it would take 4 years to mobilise the whole army. It would take 6 years for them to mobilise actually, 6 years of intense gymming just to fit into their vehicles.

The SANDF is purely running on momentum that the current crop of officers didn't create. Of course the typical response would be to label me an afro-pessimist, the sad thing is I am an afro-realist.
 
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neil

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From what I can find on the internet, it seems to suggest that the Olifant (x250) remains the only MBT for South Africa.

It seems pretty modest to have 250 very old tanks. Is this due to the low threat level - as in no one will attempt an invasion?
South Africa hasn't had 250 operational tanks for a long time. There currently is about 36 or so operational tanks, modified to the Olifant MkII standard. This makes them very capable(night fighting etc.), but if you read the SANDF budget documents, it becomes clear that these vehicles are hardly ever used for training due to lack of funds.

The tank regiment(1 SA Tank Regiment), has recently been deployed in their secondary role as line infantry.

When Mugabe sent his thugs to kick white farmers out of their farms, SA basically sat that one out and did nothing.

Would a SA under the old government have taken military actions to protect the Zimbabwean white farmers? Or would they still have stood aside?
It is very difficult to guess what the previous government would have done. Military action would defenitely have been on the table. The South African Air Force did carry out strikes in neighbouring states during those times and I'm pretty sure, the special forces did as well.

Currently however I believe invading Zimbabwe is not the right thing to do. I mean just look at what happened in Iraq.

South Africa should however, be doing a LOT more than it is at the moment. The whole thing is quite sad really.
 

Chino

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It is an achievement that these new rulers can keep SA from disintegrating and ending up in civil war, famines and massacres like many other African countries.

And also an achievement that the transition to majority rule was mainly peaceful, right?

I understand there are strong tribal conflicts in SA, too? And the machetes feature largely in settling differences...

So is the military divided along tribal lines?
 

Chino

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Having personally worked on army equipment at one of their big bases, I can honestly say that not a single person there I met was competent in their job, this is not a reason to stereotype the entire force. However after seeing first hand the state of the army and hearing stories first hand of how a 1000 assault rifles got "misplaced", it becomes quite hard not too.

Most of the equipment that they have was really good before the untrained apathetic crews got their hands on it. I particularly loved how a soldier just has to attend a course to become a qualified instructor, that fact that they fail every test at the course doesn't seem to matter.

Don't believe the numbers the army quotes about the number of "servicable" vehicles, there is an entire graveyard of "servicable" vehicles whose only function is to form a huge paperweight.

Additionally the troops like to joke semi seriously that it would take 4 years to mobilise the whole army. It would take 6 years for them to mobilise actually, 6 years of intense gymming just to fit into their vehicles.

The SANDF is purely running on momentum that the current crop of officers didn't create. Of course the typical response would be to label me an afro-pessimist, the sad thing is I am an afro-realist.
What you just said sounds like absolute anarchy. SA is already well known for a high crime rate before. Must be worse now with assault rifles disappearing by the thousands.

It's like China after the communist revolution. Things got heck of a lot worse before they got better. And like all revolutions, there will be zealous effort to make it look like a success when it is actually a farce.

Everyone kinda expect the SA military to drop in standard after the Africans take over. It's inevitable. But I didn't realise the extent of the problem.
 

Chino

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There currently is about 36 or so operational tanks, modified to the Olifant MkII standard. This makes them very capable(night fighting etc.),

So what are the plans? If any... 36 MBTs is a joke.

I read somewhere that you guys are considering the LeClerc. However, from what you've just said about the budget...

What other AFV's does SA operate?

SA made some of the best 155 howitzers in the world.

It is very difficult to guess what the previous government would have done. Military action would defenitely have been on the table.

Currently however I believe invading Zimbabwe is not the right thing to do. I mean just look at what happened in Iraq.

South Africa should however, be doing a LOT more than it is at the moment. The whole thing is quite sad really.
The Rhodesians were legendary fighters. How did they lose the fight against Mugabe? Sheer numbers? Not enough outside help etc?

I read that SA new leader is a fan of Mugabe or something.
 

neil

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Yes the new SA government defenitely feels solidarity with Mugabe. They were brothers in the 'freedom struggle'. They would never do anything to betray him. Fact.

The Rhodesians were very good fighters, yes. However when the then South African government withdrew its support(financial and otherwise), Ian Smith's government capitulated. They were badly outnumbered, yes. Plus there was immense international pressure.

Tribal lines are not so important in the SA military as in the government. President Mbeki is a Xhosa and mr Zuma(the next president in all probabillity), is a Zulu.

Crime in South Africa is a nightmare. The government really let it get out of hand. Tribal conflicts were rife in the Kwazulu Natal province about a decade ago and the SANDF was instumental in subdueing it back then. It has pretty much subsided now.

Well at this point living in South Africa is not that bad. The standard of living where I live is comparable to many first world countries. However the signs are ominous. (Frequent power cuts that recently started etc.)

The South Afican Army operates a couple of hundred Ratel Infantry Fighting Vehicles and about 80 Rooikat Armoured Cars. Then there are hundreds of Mamba and Casspir APC's. The servicability of many of these is in doubt.

You have to understand something. The SA government does not place a premium on defence. They do not trust the SANDF even though the top structure has been filled with former 'freedom fighters'. Some say they are keeping the SANDF weak on purpose as long as there are whites in it because they will never forget the thrashing that they recieved in the bush war in the 80's.
 

regstrup

Member
The Rhodesians were legendary fighters. How did they lose the fight against Mugabe? Sheer numbers? Not enough outside help etc?
As far as I know, the Rhodesians never lost on the battlefield, but the war was a big burden on the white population of only 250.000. The last years of the conflict white males had do six months service in the securityforces every year.

When the Portugies surredered the former colonies, Rhodesias only allie was South Africa. So most of the white population i Rhodesia lost faith to their course and so did the goverment of South Africa.

So your conclusions about sheer numbers and not enough help from the outside is quiet accurate in my opinion.
 

Tempest

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SANDF Armour Considered Inferior to Botswana

"The need for new MBTs arose after Botswana acquired 30 SK105 Kurassier light tanks from Austria and 36 Scorpion reconnaissance vehicles from the UK. The SANDF apparently concluded the SK105s were superior to its upgraded Centurions and wanted Challengers or Leclercs to restore balance."
 

kato

The Bunker Group
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Interesting notion, considering the SK105 and the Centurion are pretty much the same generation, and similarly armed.
Although the 12-round revolver autoloader and some FCS upgrades in the past 30 years probably are the primary reason for this assessment.

Source for that statement btw
 

Tempest

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I still have less than 15 post so they won't let me post links. However, if you google for, "The need for new MBTs arose after Botswana acquired 30 SK105 Kurassier" you will get only on result and that is THE SOURCE!
 
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