Defence Technology in South East Asia

[shihido]

I'm currently doing a paper on defence industries in South East Asia and i find that the distribution of defence industries is rather uneven in the region.

I find that mostly the defence companies, particularly the private ones.

The only private consortium i can find that has a significant presence is the Singapore Technology Group. There are a couple of smaller companies in Singapore, however, other than that, the defence industry in the region is lacking.

Does anyone have any ideas on the state of the industry in the region?

I would expect malaysia to have a presence due to its GDP and development index, however i can only find material on STRIDE, a government run defence research industry.

:sleepy2

 

[the road runner]

Singapore technoligies is one company that i know of,but i will let some of the Singapore members answer this one for you,as there knowladge will be far more indepth

Singapore Technologies Engineering Ltd

Singapore is known to have a very good Defence industry,and make a number of Land,Naval and Air systems for the Singapore defence forces and have a number of clients who purchase from Overseas Countries.

Regards

 

[shihido]

Singapore technoligies is one company that i know of,but i will let some of the Singapore members answer this one for you,as there knowladge will be far more indepth

Singapore Technologies Engineering Ltd

Singapore is known to have a very good Defence industry,and make a number of Land,Naval and Air systems for the Singapore defence forces and have a number of clients who purchase from Overseas Countries.

Regards

Thats true. Singapore IS well established in the defence industry? But other than the Singapore Technologies Consortium, are there other private companies in Singapore for defence?

And what about Malaysia, i find it odd that i cannot seem to detect a Defence Industry presence in the private sector.

 

[DavidDCM]

Malaysia has the DRB-HICOM Defence Technology (DEFTECH) Sdn. Bhd. who manufactured numerous trucks for the Malaysian military, licence-assembled the ACV-300 Adnan infantry fighting vehicle, and also developed the (not succesful) AV4 armored personnel carrier. SME Ordonance Sdn Bhd manufactures ammunition for the Malaysian forces and licence produced the Steyr AUG and I think the M4A1 carbine.

Indonesia has numerous defence companies, for example PT Pindad, who produce small arms and armoured vehicles, PT Sentra Surya Ekaja who also produce armored vehicles. PT PAL, a ship-building company who make the Makassar-class landing ship docks, and PT Dirgantara who make aircraft.

 

[shihido]

I noticed that for Indonesia, the companies all start with "PT".

Are these all subsidiaries of a larger corporation or a statutory board? Like how in Singapore the Singapore Technologies (ST) Group has numerous subsidiaries like in electronics, kinetics etc etc

 

[kato]

"PT" is short for "Perseroan Terbatas", just meaning it's a incorporated company with limited liability (like a Ltd. company in the UK, or a LLC in the USA). If it's a "PT Tbk", it means it's also listed on the Jakarta stock exchange.

 

[DavidDCM]

Yes, all these companies are independent and compete with each other. In Indonesia there is no state-owned military complex or anything similar to it.

The military industry in Indonesia and Malaysia is not nearly as advanced as the Singaporean, but it does exist.

One exception to this rule might be that some Indonesian military branches have their own mechanical "workshops" who have modified some vehicles, like putting some armor to civilian trucks etc. But none of these were purchased in great numbers.

 

[abidha_252]

Request for your kind help

Hi Shihido,
I am a Singapore student in London, currently researching on defence industries in South East Asia as part of my Masters thesis, more specifically in defence aerospace. I am a novice in this field and came across your post in this forum and would like to know if you could kindly share with me your research paper. If you would prefer not to be quoted or to keep the data confidential, I can definitely do so, as I understand the nature of this field. This is also the reason why I am finding it difficult to find data to complete my thesis which is due in 2 weeks.
My email address is abidha_252atyahoodotcom and hope that we could help each other out in good faith. Thank you very much and God Bless1

Best regards,
Abidha

 

[Chino]

Pindad should be a pretty big player as the large Indon armed forces is a guaranteed customer. They have already produced 2 assault rifles that is universally adopted by the armed forces.

The latest one is locally-designed conventional layout.
Modern Firearms - Pindad SS2-V1 SS2-V2 SS2-V4 SS2-V5 assault rifle

The older one is a copy of the FN FNC.
Modern Firearms - FN FNC assault rifle

Pindad also produces the FN MAG. Not sure about license.

Malaysia last year paraded some kind of missile that is supposed to be locally-produced. Or, at least, a mock-up of a missile they are hoping to produce.

The Philippines has at least one very famous small arms company producing very high quality M16 variants called .... can't remember.

Burma has its own amrs industry largely built with Singaporean and Chinese help.

 

[Chino]

Burmese-made rifle:
http://www.securityarms.com/firearm/4205

Philippines Floro:
Biggest weapon in their inventory is a 105mm pack howitzer.
Pack Howitzer

Philippines Ferfrans:
Their M16 variants are highly regarded.
FERFRANS Rate Reduction System (RRS) and Special Weapons for Tactical Operators

Philippines Armscor:
armscor, armscor 1911, armscor 45, armscor 22, armscor firearms, armscor philippines, armscor m1600, armscor 9mm
Manufactures mostly pistols. Again, apparently quite good quality stuff.

The Philippines is also known to have a huge cottage industry of illegal, unlicensed, "backyard arsenals" that churn out cheap pistols etc from shacks hidden in villages etc.

 

[Ahmad]

Yes, all these companies are independent and compete with each other. In Indonesia there is no state-owned military complex or anything similar to it.

The military industry in Indonesia and Malaysia is not nearly as advanced as the Singaporean, but it does exist.

One exception to this rule might be that some Indonesian military branches have their own mechanical "workshops" who have modified some vehicles, like putting some armor to civilian trucks etc. But none of these were purchased in great numbers.

Absolutely you dont even know about Indonesian defence industry so well...Thats why you thing that Singaporean is more advanced than Indonesia

So I will give you some fact first...Can Singapore make any air plane yet ?

PT Dirgantara (state owned company) has made several air plane just like CN-235 that is bought by Malaysia, Turkey, South Korea, others....it has also some military variant of CN-235....That is also sold to our army. And PT Dirgantara is also in process of making stealth jet fighter with South Korea (KFX/IFX), we have completed first stage on it and the manufacturing process is expected to start next year. This company is cooperating with several major western industry just like Airbus (making some part in Airbus 380 plane), Bell, Eurocopter, CASA, others

PT PAL has made various warship and is going to make a submarine building infrastructure this year, and projected to start making submarine in 2015 (with TOT from South Korea)

PT PINDAD make many small, medium weapons, armored vehicle, and it is going to launch a small tank prototipe next year, and has sign a cooperation with Turkey to make a medium tank

PT LEN makes many electronics software, radars and tools for attack helicopter and CN-235 military variant (anti submarine), there is a private company who is in cooperation with Lookhed Martin to build 20 new radars for our defence system.

LAPAN that has made RX 42O rocket (100km), and this year it is going to test RX 520 which is 300 km range rocket. PT Dirgantara and PT PINDAD are also going to be the Indonesian part in mass producing C-705 anti ship missile (China cooperation)

Krakatau Steel (state Owned) Big Steel Company

And all the major industries are actually state owned, it means that they can work together and it is not just a company made by some western (or Israel) big industry to penetrate our defence market

 

[STURM]

Surely you can't have failed to notice that you were responding to a post made more than 3 years ago.......

So I will give you some fact first...Can Singapore make any air plane yet ?

The key question you should ask is whether Singapore has a need to license manufacture aircraft, not whether it can.

At the end the day, Singapore has sold much more defence stuff abroad than Indonesia. In the coming years, it will be interesting to see if Indonesian companies manage to penetrate the international market.

 

[Ahmad]

Surely you can't have failed to notice that you were responding to a post made more than 3 years ago.......



The key question you should ask is whether Singapore has a need to license manufacture aircraft, not whether it can.

At the end the day, Singapore has sold much more defence stuff abroad than Indonesia. In the coming years, it will be interesting to see if Indonesian companies manage to penetrate the international market.

It doesnt matter if it is a 3 years old one as it will be forever in Google search engine...so I have to clarify some mistake here to give some of the world audience the truth.

And CN-235 (C= Casa, N= Nurtanio (PT Dirgantara old names ( 70-80's) is not just a license...we make the blue print with CASA..so thats why whether CASA sold it in European market...It still uses CN 235 name. And we do have build a bigger plane ourself called N-250..(the first fly by ware on its tipe and it is still the most modern in its tipe until now) . It is not continued because of IMF prohibition of our country to inject PT Dirgantara in 1998-2000's, even though it has already flown...(still need 1 trillion Rupiah for FAA license) but there is a plan today to continue the program as PT Dirgantara has become healthier financially and we are not under IMF program anymore......But PT Dirgantara seems to change focus and is in process of making another new transport aircraft that will be launched next year and focusing in making KFX/IFX stealth jet fighter with South Korea

Yes, maybe Singapore defence industry is making more stuff for internasional audience.......whether it is related to better marketing or anything else I dont know as marketing is something important for selling something. But of course we have sold many defense products to some international market, mostly by PT Dirgantara and PT Pindad, including exporting rockets to China army


But based on the technology, human power, infrastructure, and the product level that we have made (and we are going to produce...) it seems that Indonesian defence industry is not inferior at all compare to Singapore....And even much much better, so of course this fact should be brought into the light....

And Yes, today, our defense industry is trying to sell more abroad.....as now they become more aware of the importance of marketing than just focusing on engineering process

 

[STURM]

It doesnt matter if it is a 3 years old one as it will be forever in Google search engine...so I have to clarify some mistake here to give some of the world audience the truth.

It often does matter ...... especially if the person you're responding to doesn't see your post, which often happens when a thread has been stagnant for a number of years [sometimes people leave DT]. What people sometimes do is to start a new thread.

it seems that Indonesian defence industry is not inferior at all compare to Singapore....And even much much better, so of course this fact should be brought into the light....

I never said that it was 'inferior' ...., nor was I making a direct comparison.

All I said was that instead of stating that Indonesia - unlike Singapore - produces aircraft, -

So I will give you some fact first...Can Singapore make any air plane yet ?

- the question that should be asked is whether Singapore has a need to do so in the first place - just because it doesn't, does not mean it is not able to.

Amongst all the ASEAN countries, Singapore has clearly had the most success with regards to development and export of locally made defence equipment.

BTW, since we're on the subject of SEA defence technology, Thailand has developed 2 anti-submarine mines.

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/...-two-new-anti-submarine-mines-off-ship-coast/

 

[Ananda]

@Ahmad,
Building a succesful and advanced Industry is not simply what you can build, however what you can build and sold effectively and economicwise.

This represent your abbility on sourcing, manage project, and market your product effectively. I sometimes laughing when seing the local Forum blaiming IMF, on IPTN demise. IPTN failed is their own fault (mostly Habibie), and not IMF or other foreign entity fault. N-250 taking most IPTN resources, and before that Plane got propered licensed, Habibie already committing more resources (that IPTN did not have) on N-2130. Habibie maybe capable enginer, but he's a failed Industrialist.

I can talk much more about the other failing on the Indonesian Defence Industry used to have (such as the PAL incompetence on proper sourcing of raw materials, resulted with failing working capital, thus delayed on the projects). Point is compared to ST Industrial capabilities, our Defense Industrial management is much lacked behind, resulted the capabilities to move forward used to be hold back.

The Indonesian Defense industry has much progress recently, but no mistaked, as Industry they are still behind in term of advance then ST. Pindad so far is the only defense industry that show financial solvancy, while PAL, DI still much in red.

I've read the local forum that blasting DMSE for not give proper access to Submarine Technology as part of the 209 deal. How they can give proper technology, when PAL infrastructure not in place yet. The Submarine Yard in PAL won't be ready until mid 2015 at most, and until that most DMSE can do is just to show the process, but can't be expected to let PAL people to involve in the manufacturing process, when PAL infrastructure it self is not ready yet.

This show, much of development in Indonesia defense industry still need much work to be done. Is progressing, but if commenting on your comment to David post and yes, Davis is right, as Industry, ST is still more advanced then Indonesia defense industry infrastructure.

BTW, David knowledge on Indonesian defense matter is quite advance.

 

[Ahmad]

@Ananda: Yes, we have to admit that there is a mismanagement happening in many of our state owned company, and many of them right now has also tried to change that old culture also. For example, what happens in Mandiri Bank, Garuda, Sement Gresik can be lessons that Indonesia state owned company is going forward, and they becomes better due to better leaders.

IPTN (PT Dirgantara (its new name) is also doing the same overhaul in management, thats why our government put PINDAD person as IPTN leader now, Trying to put more industrialist mindset people than just a very clever and ambitious engineer (Habibie) on the top of the management. But, btw, ambitious one is still needed to make a solid platform and some confidence to the young engineers, and Indonesia has finished in this stage (making our engineers believe that we can make sophisticated aircraft (that is true by seeing N-250 really flies with the best technology in the world in its level on it).

Despite its old culture, something to proud of having a state owned company in defense is that it is not just a local private company that might be just created to get the demand on some particular country, but is actually owned by western (Israel) industries people.

In term of IPTN recent financial status, I think you should know that it is already in positive one, as our government has taken over IPTN debt already in 2011, and in 2009 it starts to make profit. If it is not good, so why EADS has made some cooperation with IPTN, just like ordering components for Airbus 380, making Cougar Helicopter (under license), and also another company just like Bell (helicopter license). And if EADS wins F-X jet fighter program in South Korea, it will be the other 20 percent participants on KFX/IFX jet fighter (as it has promised on the project tender) beside Indonesia, and it can be a good news for Indonesia since EADS and IPTN has already got a good partnership to one another.

IPTN is going forward now because it has made some major investment to change some old infrastructure on its engineering process line. It also tries to develop more new engineers by building another new aircraft (N-219), and make a center consisting of 100 engineers to absorb and develop what has been done in KFX/IFX first phase project with ended last year. Including developing young engineers for jet fighter project, as it is needed to continue IFX program after IFX/KFX block one is ready to service. It is not easy to make fresh engineers form campus to be an expert in their field, so Singapore has to get at least 30 years to match what our engineers has done in aerospace industry (since we have made CN 235 since 80's)

And not forgetting about the importance of steel company for any defence product......Indonesia has Krakatau Steel, and has also made a joint cooperation with POSCO by building a new big steel factory in Indonesia, I think it is already operating now...... I dont know whether Singapore has a big steel company yet ???


What is lack in Indonesia defence industry is management and marketing orientation (that we have already started to change with some positive result already there ), but in term of the engineers capability, we are still much better than Singaporean. But I do believe that the culture (in management) will be going to be much much better as we have spread many good leaders to our defense companies, and our State Owned Ministry is also a real entrepreneur (Dahlan Iskan) and a clean one as well, and for sure, knows already what the problems are.

 

[the road runner]

(that is true by seeing N-250 really flies with the best technology in the world in its level on it).

The N-250 used Allison AE 210 C engines.I was under the impression the N-250 was cancelled.

If it is not good, so why EADS has made some cooperation with IPTN, just like ordering components for Airbus 380, making Cougar Helicopter (under license), and also another company just like Bell (helicopter license).

Probably because its good business. If a Country purchases a plane/helicopter of any major player,the deal is usually sweetened by allowing local business to participate in manufacturing some parts under licence

It is not easy to make fresh engineers form campus to be an expert in their field, so Singapore has to get at least 30 years to match what our engineers has done in aerospace industry (since we have made CN 235 since 80's)

Dont they use General Electric engines? An the CN was a joint development between CASA and IPTN . You make it sound as if Indonesia designed the whole plane including engines from scratch.They also use some US avionics ect in the design

I dont know whether Singapore has a big steel company yet ???

What is lack in Indonesia defence industry is management and marketing orientation (that we have already started to change with some positive result already there ), but in term of the engineers capability, we are still much better than Singaporean

You seem to have issues with Singapore and it sounds as if your turning this debate into a pissing comp.

 

[Bonza]

You seem to have issues with Singapore and it sounds as if your turning this debate into a pissing comp.

I agree. Ahmad, can you please stop the childish "everything you can do, I can do better" type of posting and contribute something sensible instead? Your tenure isn't going to be long here if you keep up the pissing matches.

 

[Ahmad]

@The road runner.

Aerospace company needs to be focus, it doesnt necessary build the engine also, even Russia has separated companies between the engine company and the aircraft manufacturer...I am surprised you dont know about it.

We never buy any Airbus 308 plane (instead we buy many Boeing planes)....but IPTN has some orders to make some wing components for Airbus 308 from EADS

I dont want to offense any Singaporeans here....I just want to bring some truth

 

[the road runner]

@The road runner.

Aerospace company needs to be focus, it doesnt necessary build the engine also, even Russia has separated companies between the engine company and the aircraft manufacturer...I am surprised you dont know about it.

I was trying to explain that Indonesia dose not make engines for its planes.
Lets face it an Engine is a big part of a plane and it also shows a higher degree of engineering,than building the fuselage of a plane.

I just want to bring some truth

And what is the truth?