Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Ananda · Jan 21, 2021

swerve said:
The two spare ships, Surcouf & Guépratte, are a few years newer than the remaining Dutch M-class, & the design is newer, but they're slower & have a more basic sensor fit. The all-diesel propulsion should be easier to maintain & cheaper to operate than the CODAG M-class.

Exactly, it will be cheaper to maintain and operate than M Class, still have more room to upgrade (if you got budget on that), relatively younger years toward other potentially second hand Frigates, and in my opinion this is matter more for Indonesian Naval need, they provide good Economics range for patrol duty.

Despite all the plan for newly build Frigates, Indonesian Navy will not be able to catch up with the replacement need only by that, let alone to venture on growth plan. Combination of newly build and second hand assets need to be done in my calculations. Also there will be not enough budget, if all the replacement and growth plan will be done by newly build assets. Thus this is in the end back to question of Budget and Time Table.

The pressing need right now is to replace those Old Van Speijk Frigates. Despite all the upgrade being done to them, they are already old and tired hulls. They should be replaced during this Administration first term. However incompetence MinDef planning during first term, plus no clear goal set on defense planning, makes those hulls has to soldiers on when they should be scrap few years back.

Thus even only doing minimal upgrade (can be say as first stage upgrade), upgrade sensors suit while still using armament from those Van Speijk like 76mm gun, Mistral, or even the Chinese Missiles (that being put when the original Harpoon already pass expiration date), still will be acceptable for Patrol duties.

Off course the ideal way is to improve sensors both for AAW, ASuW, and ASW. Standardize the SSM with Exocet 40 Blk3 (just like in the Sigma's and Bung Tomo Corvettes), and install VLS for VL MICA. However if the budget is not enough for complete overhaul, they can do it on stages.

Well all this back to that MOI that sign by both Indonesia and French defense Minister. They have not reach final stage yet, still no information when even Surcouf & Guépratte will be available for Transfer. However if it meet both the budget and time table, it should be still worth it program.

swerve · Jan 21, 2021

All very sensible, IMO.

Surcouf has a hull-mounted sonar, IIRC - but a fairly limited one.

There's one thing about the Ahmad Yani/Van Speijk frigates that bothers me a bit: the engine replacements. Given the age of the hulls, the new diesels are likely to still have a fair bit of useful life when the hulls are scrapped. Marine diesels can last a long time.

Sandhi Yudha · Jan 21, 2021

Looks like that our Oracle forgot that Disnerbal also has the AS565 Panther...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352355285680218117

Sandhi Yudha said:
A new strange unidentified device found in Indonesian waters.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351872996424654848

Benda Mirip Rudal Bertuliskan China Ditemukan di Anambas Kepri

Warga di Kecamatan Siantan Timur, Kabupaten Kepulauan Anambas, Provinsi Kepri, dihebohkan oleh penemuan benda misterius menyerupai rudal.

news.detik.com

I dont know what this is, but these links tell us two things:
1. This device looks very chinese.
2. Those brainless locals try to disassemble and 'analyse' it by themself.

An interesting and more detailed article about this latest chinese device.

H I Sutton - Covert Shores

Sandhi Yudha · Jan 22, 2021

Last year the owner of PT Lundin proudly told that the construction of the Klewang 2 would go full speed in September 2020. But it seems that it is still going very slowly.

https://www.facebook.com/181276675314017/posts/3336645819777071

The Indonesian Navy has 11 Eurocopter AS565 MBe helicopters. Most of them are in utility/SAR-configuration, but at least two are in ASW-configuration. This example is equipped with a winch and FLIR-sensor. On the background we can see the SIGMA 10514 frigate KRI I Gusti Ngurah Rai 332.

https://www.facebook.com/181276675314017/posts/3338698632905123

Sandhi Yudha · Jan 23, 2021

Ananda said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, however from what I read on Lafayette class, it's from beginning was prepared by French for further upgrade capabilities if the need arises.

As whether worth it ? Well the French do plan to upgrade 3 from 5 Lafayette. Thus seems the other two are open to transfer, which reflect the MOI. Compared to other potential second hand Frigates from Euro Market, it's still worth in my opinion. It's coming from 90's, compared to others potential that mostly from 80's.

Indonesian Navy during SBY era asside new Sigma build Corvettes and Light Frigates, also taking over ex Brunai's Nahkoda Ragam Corvettes. Granted the condition of those Corvettes were actually haven't been used, but the technology wise they're not much different from Lafayette's.

Yesterday I take a peek on some local forums or Indonesian defense related forums. Read some forumers that complain, if second hand Frigates going to be choose as part of stop gap, why not ex Dutch M Class for example.

For me, despite the talk of stop gap second hand Frigates, in my opinion it's actually not a stop gap. MinDef looking for potential second hand Frigates that can be upgraded and being used for at least another two decades to complement newly build assets.

Just like when SBY bought Sigma's. Some build in Netherlands, some build by PAL, but they also looking for second hand assets that still can be upgraded and used for considerable time in future. For that Lafayette still fall on that category. Lafayette potential for upgradings can be seen on what Saudis and Taiwanese done (Singaporean ones a bit difference on design eventough still based on Lafayette).

That MOI if follow through include the co-op on upgrade. Thus it's probable the package includes upgrade done locally in Indonesia with kits from French. The upgrade including refurbishing the hull, which basically also done to Bung Tomo/Nahkoda Ragam. Lafayette has enough space in B position to accommodate at least 16 VLS for VL MICA/NG or Aster 15. Changing sensors, improvement on ASW suites has the space to be done.

Personally on my thinking, if looking for potential upgrade and keeping it for at least another two decades, Lafayette is better candidate then Ex Dutch M class, or other Euro potential second hand Frigates in the market.

@Ananda
You are living in the fantasy world!
(According to our Oracle)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353067478193033221

Ananda · Jan 24, 2021

Sandhi Yudha said:
You are living in the fantasy world!
(According to our Oracle)

yes..but that guy also the one of the guys in Indonesia defense 'fortune teller' that spreading rumours with conviction, on the plan second hand Frigates.

Guess he shown his abilities to change colours of his prediction in the moment notice

Seems he's get bitter that his project didn't come through. If one of French or Euro project (that seems he's working on) get through, perhaps not the one that he's involved with. Pity, here goes his pay check.

ngatimozart · Jan 24, 2021

Looks like the Indonesian Coastguard have caught an Iranian tanker and a Panamanian tanker in the middle of undertaking illegal ship to ship oil transfers in Pontiantak Waters, West Kalimantan. Both ships had their AIS switched off and have been arrested and seized.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353271466041561088

Ananda · Jan 24, 2021

This's the Video from Kompas TV on the situation when BAKAMLA/Coast Guard board those tankers. It's basically violation of UNCLOS agreement illegal Business activities.

This's kind of thing actually already quite common happen in Indonesian waters for some time. Either go undetected or some guys pay the maritime authority off. Some arguments also talk about how Indonesian Maritime Authorities sometimes have confusion in the field, on whose have the authority on handling case like this.

This case shown how Coast Guard authorization need to be settled. This's also shown the need for more assets for them to enforce their constabulary duties. The separation of Navy and Coast Guard duties on defense and constabulary need to become norm in the field.

Sandhi Yudha · Jan 25, 2021

Ananda said:
yes..but that guy also the one of the guys in Indonesia defense 'fortune teller' that spreading rumours with conviction, on the plan second hand Frigates.

Guess he shown his abilities to change colours of his prediction in the moment notice

Seems he's get bitter that his project didn't come through. If one of French or Euro project (that seems he's working on) get through, perhaps not the one that he's involved with. Pity, here goes his pay check.

"Guess he shown his abilities to change colours of his prediction in the moment notice"
Yes he is full of surprises, thats why he has a loyal fanbase...
Im sure you already read his post from yesterday

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353439177589702657

Well, you dont have to be a genius or paranormal to predict that these obsolete 55 years old ships will be retired before 2030 or 2040...even if they got a second Midlife Update.

Talking about updates...
The KRI Sultan Thala Syafuddin 376 was upgraded with the chinese Type 730.
Its still the only Indonesian vessel equipped with this piece of mixture of France and Netherlands CIWS.
In the second video (put your sound volume on a low level !! ) we can see a fire test.

How satisfied is TNI-AL about the Type 730? I mean, a CIWS hitting a static large balloon at around 300-500 meter isnt that impressive.

Ananda · Jan 25, 2021

Sandhi Yudha said:
How satisfied is TNI-AL about the Type 730? I mean, a CIWS hitting a static large balloon at around 300-500 isnt that impressive

If they don't have plan or implementation drive for more, means they are not satisfied. This's what happened with those Naval Russian and Chinese system. They bought to equip one or two ship at most (mostly only one), then they stop after that.

Look at Yakhont, or C705 even C802. They're not being procured on sustainment move, thus in my opinion it's mostly on trial run. Like they are experiment on how it's going to work. It's different with Euro system, that they're continue shown more procurement plan on those.

Sandhi Yudha said:
Well, you dont have to be a genius or paranormal to predict that these obsolete 55 years old ships will be retired before 2030 or 2040...even if they got a second Midlife Update.

Well he's just bitter that his project got delays or not showing immediate progress. He's talking on Fighters and Submarine projects got priority over Frigates. Well it's no brainer, as F-5 replacement and Second Batch DSME 1400 budget allotment already being approved. Off course it's got priority to be settled. Whether F-5 replacement will still be Su-35 or Second Batch submarine still DSME 1400 are another matter. Those two projects already got budget allotment, thus they have to settle whether continue or change the assets procurement. If there's going to be change (say additional) budget, off course it's going to be settle on projects that already got budget allotment first.

The others practically still in talk, thus off course they're no fund being allocated. He's saying that he's working as defense consultant, and he's not understand how that basic working on budget allotment within Ministry of Finance and Bapenas.

As I have mentioned before, any next defense budget allotment will have to wait after the priority budget prepared first. At this moment the administration priority if how to vaccinate at least 200 million people (70%+ of 270 Mio Citizen). Thus this means at least 400 million dose of Vaccines, plus the logistics to implement that. After that prepared, then the other projects (that the budget not being allocated/approved yet) can be further processing.

Ananda · Feb 4, 2021

Slow months on defense development in Indonesia, perhaps it will be until there's traction on COVID handling. In the meantime I put bit historical pictures (from various online sources).

Attached are 3 ASW Submarine that used to be in TNI-AL inventory and the present ones. From 60's MI-4 ASW, 80-90's WASP, and Present Panthers.

One interesting info on MI-4 ASW, few years back before TNI-AL just got Gannet from UK as their asset for aerial ASW. However in just few years Political situation changes with Soekarno preparation to invade Dutch armed forces in Irian (now West Papua and Papua provinces) and off course Konfrontasi with Malaysia (thus facing UK forces it self). This bring Indonesia going all Eastern block armament.

Wasp it self when entering TNI-AL inventory already bit out dated. They got it as a package from Dutch with Van Speijk Frigates. It's plan to replace them with Lynx in the 90's. However Asian Financial crisis and Soeharto down fall prevent that.

After 20 years planning and couple administration latter, in second term of SBY it's decided to use Panthers as ASW platform for TNI-AL. Implementation during Jokowi's first term, and as @Sandhi Yudha post before put it, of 11 being ordered only 2 at this moment already equipped for ASW work. The rest already wired but not equipped with yet. It's not clear when the rest will be equip for ASW or even if the 9 rest will all be equip for ASW in the end.

This shown, TNI AL already the oldest in SEA region even one of the oldest in Asia that employing Aerial ASW asset. However now already somewhat left behind, and need to catch up more on ASW business.

Sandhi Yudha · Feb 5, 2021

Ananda said:
Slow months on defense development in Indonesia, perhaps it will be until there's traction on COVID handling.

Thats the point, in the first 6 years (pre-Covid-19 era) of this administration not much happen. 2019-nCoV / Covid-19 will not disappear, like SARS and MERS also never disappeared, so i will not be surprised if this whole Covid-chaos and panic-mismanagement will be used (abused) to keep defence-projects at a historic low level.
Its not even sure that BAKAMLA-vessels will be equipped with 30 mm guns.

Now we are talking about BAKAMLA, let me grab the chance to talk about BAKAMLA's patrol aircrafts.
BAKAMLA is in the posession of one Beechcraft B200GT King Air, PK-CAO. A nice aircraft, but without any sensors to perform decent maritime patrols.

But i also saw PK-BRQ, a DHC-6-300 Twin Otter which is operated by BAKAMLA. But ive the feeling that the PK-BRQ is just leased from Aviastar.

PK-BRQ | De Havilland Canada DHC-6-300 Twin Otter | Aviastar | Fauzan Rasyadi | JetPhotos

PK-BRQ. De Havilland Canada DHC-6-300 Twin Otter. JetPhotos.com is the biggest database of aviation photographs with over 5 million screened photos online!

www.jetphotos.com

Ananda · Feb 5, 2021

Sandhi Yudha said:
Now we are talking about BAKAMLA, let me grab the chance to talk about BAKAMLA's patrol aircrafts.
BAKAMLA is in the posession of one Beechcraft B200GT King Air, PK-CAO. A nice aircraft, but without any sensors to perform decent maritime patrols

Any development for BAKAMLA will depend on the Political will not only in the administration but also in Parliament to support BAKAMLA as viable Coast Guard. Also the Political will that provides clear jurisdiction that any Maritime constabulary duties will fall under BAKAMLA jurisdiction. Not the Navy, not the Maritime Police, and not other maritime agency.

The problem that I see until now, is yes (at least in Media) Jokowi seems support BAKAMLA to be the definitive Coast Guard agency. However the implementation will on that remain to be seen. Currently any other Maritime agency from Navy, Police, Custom, Fisheries, and Transport seems try their best to keep their 'slice of cake' on maritime constabulary jurisdiction. This's the thing that create confusion and grey area within Indonesian waters jurisdiction.

Until everyone in administration and Political circle agree for BAKAMLA having clear jurisdiction for Indonesian waters constabulary function, then don't expect BAKAMLA will get enough budget for proper Coast Guard Agency. All the budget will be fighting over between those agencies.

The Images below I just take it from recent post in BAKAMLA FB pages. Why they put in there ? It's a year old. Is it to remain Public that Jokowi support for BAKAMLA as definitive Coast Guard ? Or is it because there's still opposition for BAKAMLA as Coast Guard that have all constabulary jurisdiction in Indonesian waters ?

As usual in Indonesia, there's still Political drama to be play.

Sandhi Yudha · Feb 5, 2021

Ananda said:
Any development for BAKAMLA will depend on the Political will not only in the administration but also in Parliament to support BAKAMLA as viable Coast Guard. Also the Political will that provides clear jurisdiction that any Maritime constabulary duties will fall under BAKAMLA jurisdiction. Not the Navy, not the Maritime Police, and not other maritime agency.

The problem that I see until now, is yes (at least in Media) Jokowi seems support BAKAMLA to be the definitive Coast Guard agency. However the implementation will on that remain to be seen. Currently any other Maritime agency from Navy, Police, Custom, Fisheries, and Transport seems try their best to keep their 'slice of cake' on maritime constabulary jurisdiction. This's the thing that create confusion and grey area within Indonesian waters jurisdiction.

Until everyone in administration and Political circle agree for BAKAMLA having clear jurisdiction for Indonesian waters constabulary function, then don't expect BAKAMLA will get enough budget for proper Coast Guard Agency. All the budget will be fighting over between those agencies.

The Images below I just take it from recent post in BAKAMLA FB pages. Why they put in there ? It's a year old. Is it to remain Public that Jokowi support for BAKAMLA as definitive Coast Guard ? Or is it because there's still opposition for BAKAMLA as Coast Guard that have all constabulary jurisdiction in Indonesian waters ?

As usual in Indonesia, there's still Political drama to be play.

Well, they also posted this on Twitter

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357615934655975425

But yes, all those parties, politicians and agencies not working together for improvement (i mean you see now everywhere those useless "sinergi" banners) but fighting each other to grab more money and their part of attention and glory, this situation makes us ineffective and slows down our development.
And we all have to confess that, in communist china they have another situation.

Alright, something more positive...
The K130 Braunschweig Class corvette F263 Oldenburg with the SIGMA 9113 Diponegoro Class corvette Hasanuddin 366 and a detailed equipment overview.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1313316269391671297

swerve · Feb 5, 2021

Ananda said:
One interesting info on MI-4 ASW, few years back before TNI-AL just got Gannet from UK as their asset for aerial ASW. ..

A little OT comment (I hope it's forgiven).

There's a little aviation museum a few km from here, & it has a Gannet.

Fairey Gannet
My wife (yes, she was interested) & I have been there.

Ananda · Feb 5, 2021

swerve said:
little OT comment (I hope it's forgiven).

No problem @swerve this's interesting airplanes for me too. There's one of them in Jakarta Military museum, and I was admire that plane the first time I see it long time ago when I went to the museum during my elementary school day tour.

It's fat bombers, but somehow it's also very interesting with it's double propeller

TNI-AL got 18 ex RN that being upgrade to AS-4 version. The upgrade from what I gather also change the wing from folded to regular wing for land based operation. Eventough it's capable for Anti Submarine (at least for the 50's-60's standard), however seems TNI-AL mostly used them as Anti Surface patrol.

TNI-AL Gannett inventory days began unfold during Konfrontasi era with Malaysia (well it's mean basically with UK force). That's when it begin being replaced by IL-28 Torpedo bomber version, within TNI-AL air wing inventory. After Soekarno fall, Soeharto seems doesn't have intentions to revive the Gannett (or more precise TNI-AL fixed wing capabilities yet). Thus it begin to enter Museum or become fixed display in TNI-AL bases.

ASSAIL · Feb 5, 2021

swerve said:
A little OT comment (I hope it's forgiven).

There's a little aviation museum a few km from here, & it has a Gannet. Fairey Gannet
My wife (yes, she was interested) & I have been there.

Here’s a nice shot of a Gannet at the RANFAA museum, HMAS Albatros, Nowra.
Other historic types can be viewed by sliding left or right. There’s a couple of A4s in there if either our Canuck or Kiwi friends are interested in buying.

fleet air arm museum nowra nsw - Google Search

ngatimozart · Feb 5, 2021

ASSAIL said:
Here’s a nice shot of a Gannet at the RANFAA museum, HMAS Albatros, Nowra.
Other historic types can be viewed by sliding left or right. There’s a couple of A4s in there if either our Canuck or Kiwi friends are interested in buying.
fleet air arm museum nowra nsw - Google Search

Be nice. You wouldn't have any A-4s for your museum if we hadn't gifted some back to you.

Do they still have the Project Kahu Mods of the F-16 type cockpit?

Ananda · Feb 5, 2021

Talking about 50's and 60's maritime strike planes, I put picture from on line sources from of TNI-AL IL-28 torpedo bomber version that already become static monument in front of their Air Wing base, and black and white picture of TNI-AL Gannett leaving Fairey facility in 1959 to Indonesia after modifications there.

Those two always interest me as shown the doctrine at that moment for TNI-AL air wing. Currently Penerbal (TNI-AL air wing) limited toward air transport support between bases and maritime patrol from land based or Helicopter sea based operation. However during 50's and 60's the doctrine also put Maritime strike capabilities for them.

Maritime strike capabilities is seems the one that Navy wants to reacquire. This with the thinking of provide some maritime strike capabilities toward their Helicopters and MPA. However back then in the form of IL-28 and even some Fighters (Mig-19), Penerbal actually have more aggressive maritime strike roles. Something now being left only to the air Force (TNI-AU).

Sandhi Yudha · Feb 5, 2021

Ananda said:
Talking about 50's and 60's maritime strike planes, I put picture from on line sources from of TNI-AL IL-28 torpedo bomber version that already become static monument in front of their Air Wing base, and black and white picture of TNI-AL Gannett leaving Fairey facility in 1959 to Indonesia after modifications there.

Those two always interest me as shown the doctrine at that moment for TNI-AL air wing. Currently Penerbal (TNI-AL air wing) limited toward air transport support between bases and maritime patrol from land based or Helicopter sea based operation. However during 50's and 60's the doctrine also put Maritime strike capabilities for them.

Maritime strike capabilities is seems the one that Navy wants to reacquire. This with the thinking of provide some maritime strike capabilities toward their Helicopters and MPA. However back then in the form of IL-28 and even some Fighters (Mig-19), Penerbal actually have more aggressive maritime strike roles. Something now being left only to the air Force (TNI-AU).

I wanted to ask about Disnerbal's strike capabilities with the NAS-332L Super Puma and the AM-39 Exocet.

NAS 332 Super Puma TNI AL: “Melacak” Jejak Helikopter Pengusung Rudal Anti Kapal

Super Puma Puspenerbal TNI AL memang spesial, disamping kodratnya sebagai helikopter angkut, produksi PT Dirgantara Indonesia (d/h PT IPTN) ini juga punya kemampuan sebagai platform peluncur rudal anti kapal AM-39 Exocet. Meski proyek meluncurkan Exocet akhirnya batal, Super Puma TNI AL tampil...

www.indomiliter.com

but it seems that from the 4 Super Pumas only one was armed with ...... dummy Exocets, so the AM39 was never really a part of TNI-AL's Disnerbal strike capabilities.

AM-39 Exocet: Rudal Anti Kapal Yang ‘Batal’ Memperkuat TNI AL

Debut AM-39 Exocet dalam Perang Malvinas (Falkland) meroket setelah rudal anti kapal yang diluncurkan dari jet Super Etendard AL Argentina mampu mengkaramkan kapal perusak Inggris HMS Sheffield pada 4 Mei 1982. Bagi Indonesia yang kala itu tengah bersiap menerima kedatangan helikopter angkut...

www.indomiliter.com

Btw are the two AS565 MBe Dauphins in ASW-configuration also armed with torpedoes, or just FFBNW?

Indonesia: 'green water navy'

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