LM/USN RE-DESIGNATE LRDR AS AN/SPY 7 (V) 1

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DAVID DUNLOP

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Calculus said:
It's Gallium Nitride. https://www.mwrf.com/technologies/s.../nextgeneration-radar-systems-stock-up-on-gan

Also, a reference to your statement that this was "invented' by Dr. Douglas Carlson at MIT in the 1980s would be appreciated. My research suggests GaN for use as a transistor was in fact being researched far earlier, perhaps as early as the 1960s, if this article is to be believed:Tales of Discovery: Gallium Nitride - Office of Naval Research
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Hi Calculus: Yes, you are right of course. It is "Gallium Nitride". Thank you for correcting my spelling mistake. Yes, again, GaN technology has been a proven theory since the 1960's and if it were not for this substance, we would not have things such as 4GLTE cell phones, Flat Screen Televisions and blue-green lasers. In fact most of our electronics today can be attributed to "Gallium Nitride" technology. As a semiconductor material, GaN transistors offer much higher energy efficiency, faster switching frequency, and smaller power-electronic systems. Crystal growth method for gallium nitride-based compound semiconductor which was patented by Shuji Nakamura from Japan in 1994.
What Dr. Carlson perfected, and what I was referring to, was the GaN semi-conductor material technology as a military application that he introduced through MIT which Raytheon then used to advance it's AESA radar with companies such as Lockheed Martin, Thales, SAAB and others who then advanced that technology even further to develop their own Multi-function SSR's such as the USN SPY 6 (V) 1/ SPY 7 (V) 1/ CEAFAR2/APAR/ SEA FIRE 500 family of radars. These GaN semi-conductors are now essential components to all AESA and SSR radar technology throughout the world today. The development of millimeter-wave GaN devices and amplifiers are products that the USN Office of Naval Research (ONR) has also "sponsored". Again, I am learning something every day. Thanks and Cheers!
http://www.google.com/url sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwju3KXv9LLmAhXkguAKHV_gAcQQFjAAegQIAxAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmil-embedded.com%2Farticles%2Fmultifunction-battlefield-sensor-network%2F&usg=AOvVaw1vdUGBILndwN9yw3vNmlps
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwju3KXv9LLmAhXkguAKHV_gAcQQFjAMegQICBAB&url=https://blog.bliley.com/understanding-aesa-radar-tech&usg=AOvVaw1XEdOk6DmI_zYha2Wmn2Xz
College of Engineering - UC Santa Barbara › news › gallium-nitride-material-made-difference
Tales of Discovery: Gallium Nitride - Office of Naval Research
 
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ngatimozart

ngatimozart

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@DAVID DUNLOP can you provide links to your sources please. It is a requirement of the forum to protect both the forum and you against claims of plagiarism. I think that this is the second time that I have had to require this of you. Us Mods really hate repeating ourselves and tend to get real cranky when required to do so.
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

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ngatimozart said:
@DAVID DUNLOP can you provide links to your sources please. It is a requirement of the forum to protect both the forum and you against claims of plagiarism. I think that this is the second time that I have had to require this of you. Us Mods really hate repeating ourselves and tend to get real cranky when required to do so.
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I have updated my reply to calculus. Cheers!
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

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Calculus said:
Except the Sea Fire 500 does not currently support either ESSM or SM-x - only the Aster family of missiles. So, I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this, and reiterate my belief that the X-band radar on CSC is still unknown.

The Smart Phone of Radars – Sea Fire is Making the Seas Safe | Thales Group

SEA FIRE Next Gen Radar System Begins Testing at Shore Integration Facility - Naval News
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Hi Calculus. I wonder if the other radar on the CSC Frigate could be the Italian Leonardo Kronos Star Fire X Band radar?
 
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Calculus

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DAVID DUNLOP said:
Hi Calculus. I wonder if the other radar on the CSC Frigate could be the Italian Leonardo Kronos Star Fire X Band radar?
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It's certainly possible. Here is a link to some material on that system: https://www.leonardocompany.com/doc...08766_KRONOS_Dual_Band_LQ.pdf?t=1538987896420

The CSC infographic (see below) refers to a "solid state illuminator", so it could also be CEAMOUNT (CEA Technologies - Solutions With Commitment)? That panel is also square, but I'm not sure about the orientation, as it appears to be mounted at a 45 degree rotation in all the Australian installations. Not sure if that's a technical requirement, or something unique to the Australian installations because of weight or space constraints... Perhaps one of our Aussie cousins could comment on if this rotated aspect is critical to the performance of CEAMOUNT...

Another candidate is SPY-3, which, as originally designed, was as an illuminator in the X-band, and was meant to be combined with an S-band volume search radar (SPY-4). As far as I can tell, it is still in production: Dual Band Radar (DBR) | Raytheon. The pictures I have seen, however (on Zumwalt class ships Zumwalt class Guided Missile Destroyer DDG US Navy) appear to show rectangular panels, so....

BAE_CSC Submission.jpg
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

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Calculus said:
It's certainly possible. Here is a link to some material on that system: https://www.leonardocompany.com/doc...08766_KRONOS_Dual_Band_LQ.pdf?t=1538987896420

The CSC infographic (see below) refers to a "solid state illuminator", so it could also be CEAMOUNT (CEA Technologies - Solutions With Commitment)? That panel is also square, but I'm not sure about the orientation, as it appears to be mounted at a 45 degree rotation in all the Australian installations. Not sure if that's a technical requirement, or something unique to the Australian installations because of weight or space constraints... Perhaps one of our Aussie cousins could comment on if this rotated aspect is critical to the performance of CEAMOUNT...

Another candidate is SPY-3, which, as originally designed, was as an illuminator in the X-band, and was meant to be combined with an S-band volume search radar (SPY-4). As far as I can tell, it is still in production: Dual Band Radar (DBR) | Raytheon. The pictures I have seen, however (on Zumwalt class ships Zumwalt class Guided Missile Destroyer DDG US Navy) appear to show rectangular panels, so....

View attachment 47008
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Hi again Calculus! I never really thought of the CEAMOUNT X Band Illuminator Radar from CEA Technologies. Since CEA is a full partner with Lockheed Martin in the design of the CSC Frigate, it could very well be. CEAMOUNT is available mounted on an agile director (angled) or in fixed face configurations (read square) as the quote has said. Our Australian friends could really help us out on this one though. I don't believe it could be the Raytheon's AN/SPY-3 Multi-Function Radar (MFR) X-band active electronically scanned array as it has only 3 fixed sides. I will try to ask CEA for some info on this but don't expect anything coming from either LM, MDA or CEA Technologies as they probably have all signed "non-disclosure" agreements with LM during the Design Phase.
 
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Rangitoto

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Confirmation that MDA will be supplying the X-band radar:

"One of Lockheed Martin’s many Canadian-based industry partners for the new frigates’ weapons system includes MDA, which will furnish the solid-state, X-band illuminator to guide and command the vessel’s weapons, along with other content."

SNA 2020: Beyond AEGIS ASHORE
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

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Rangitoto said:
Confirmation that MDA will be supplying the X-band radar:

"One of Lockheed Martin’s many Canadian-based industry partners for the new frigates’ weapons system includes MDA, which will furnish the solid-state, X-band illuminator to guide and command the vessel’s weapons, along with other content."

SNA 2020: Beyond AEGIS ASHORE
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Hi Rangitoto. If you are saying this is an MDA radar to be furnished or supplied by MDA, it is not. This is in fact a CEA Technologies CEAMOUNT X-Band Illuminator solid state radar (SSR) that may be integrated into the CSC's CCMS 330 combat and weapons systems in coordination with both CEA & MDA for LM/BAE. Both CEA and MDA are full partners with LM. It is interesting to note that CEA also developed the CEAFAR radar for Australia and both radars will be part of the Hunter Class Type 26 Frigates (see below). Yes, MDA will integrate the Lockheed Martin SPY 7 V 1 S-Band Long Range Discrimination Radar (LRDR) Active Phased Array radar into the CSC Frigate's combat & weapon systems. We still don't know for sure, however, if this is in fact the X-Band radar to be fitted on the CSC as LM/BAE has not as yet confirmed this, and probably will not do so until the design phase has been completed, but it seems more likely now than not, that it may be. Marty Kauchak may have miss-identified this radar as an MDA product. This X-Band radar is definitely not the same radar that will be fitted on the Spanish F110 Frigate.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...ors:CEAMOUNT&usg=AOvVaw0lOPRPo6ukNG4qJ41BOP7O
 
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ngatimozart

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DAVID DUNLOP said:
Hi Rangitoto. If you are saying this is an MDA radar to be furnished or supplied by MDA, it is not. This is in fact a CEA Technologies CEAMOUNT X-Band Illuminator solid state radar (SSR) that may be integrated into the CSC's CCMS 330 combat and weapons systems in coordination with both CEA & MDA for LM/BAE. Both CEA and MDA are full partners with LM. Yes, MDA will integrate the Lockheed Martin SPY 7 V 1 S-Band Long Range Discrimination Radar (LRDR) Active Phased Array radar into the CSC Frigate's combat & weapon systems. We still don't know for sure, however, if this is in fact the X-Band radar to be fitted on the CSC as LM/BAE has not as yet confirmed this, and probably will not do so until the design phase has been completed, but it seems more likely now than not, that it may be. Marty Kauchak may have miss-identified this radar as an MDA product. This X-Band radar is definitely not the same radar that will be fitted on the Spanish F110 Frigate.
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Are you sure about this @DAVID DUNLOP ? Could you provide a source to back up your assertion. This is second time I've had to ask you about sources. Don't let there be a third.
 
Black Jack Shellac

Black Jack Shellac

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DAVID DUNLOP said:
Hi Rangitoto. If you are saying this is an MDA radar to be furnished or supplied by MDA, it is not. This is in fact a CEA Technologies CEAMOUNT X-Band Illuminator solid state radar (SSR) that may be integrated into the CSC's CCMS 330 combat and weapons systems in coordination with both CEA & MDA for LM/BAE. Both CEA and MDA are full partners with LM. It is interesting to note that CEA also developed the CEAFAR radar for Australia and both radars will be part of the Hunter Class Type 26 Frigates (see below). Yes, MDA will integrate the Lockheed Martin SPY 7 V 1 S-Band Long Range Discrimination Radar (LRDR) Active Phased Array radar into the CSC Frigate's combat & weapon systems. We still don't know for sure, however, if this is in fact the X-Band radar to be fitted on the CSC as LM/BAE has not as yet confirmed this, and probably will not do so until the design phase has been completed, but it seems more likely now than not, that it may be. Marty Kauchak may have miss-identified this radar as an MDA product. This X-Band radar is definitely not the same radar that will be fitted on the Spanish F110 Frigate.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjh5qf8jI3nAhUxU98KHerYADQQFjAAegQIBBAB&url=https://www.cea.com.au/!Global/Directory.php?Location=ProductsServices:ContinuousWaveIlluminators:CEAMOUNT&usg=AOvVaw0lOPRPo6ukNG4qJ41BOP7O
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David

Sorry, but I think you are mistaken. @Calculus provided a link from LM which stated that LM is providing the S band radar. @Rangitoto provided a link that MDA is providing the X band illuminator. Your link only provides information about the CEAMOUNT with no indication that it is being used on the CSC. I believe you are just speculating. And for now, I think I can trust @Rangitoto's link.

Cheers
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

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Black Jack Shellac said:
David

Sorry, but I think you are mistaken. @Calculus provided a link from LM which stated that LM is providing the S band radar. @Rangitoto provided a link that MDA is providing the X band illuminator. Your link only provides information about the CEAMOUNT with no indication that it is being used on the CSC. I believe you are just speculating. And for now, I think I can trust @Rangitoto's link.

Cheers
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Black Jack Shellac said:
David

Sorry, but I think you are mistaken. @Calculus provided a link from LM which stated that LM is providing the S band radar. @Rangitoto provided a link that MDA is providing the X band illuminator. Your link only provides information about the CEAMOUNT with no indication that it is being used on the CSC. I believe you are just speculating. And for now, I think I can trust @Rangitoto's link.

Cheers
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Hi Black Jack Shellac. Great to hear from you! I don't believe I have ever said that Lockheed Martin was not providing the SPY 7 (V) 1 LRDR for the CSC Frigates. Yes, this is a LM S-Band AESA radar and MDA, as a full partner with LM, will be integrating this radar. I have also never said that the CSC X Band radar was indeed the one that will be supplied from CEA Technologies for the CSC Frigates. Just that it may be. IMO this radar may be the one our CSC Frigates will be fitted with but I can't, of course, be sure. The facts are, that this CEAMOUNT X Band Illuminator radar is indeed a CEA Technologies product as the quote below shows, and not an MDA product as Rangitoto has eluded to in his quote. If the X band radar for the CSC Frigates is indeed an MDA product, I would like to know what it is. I have seen nothing from MDA on this. CEA is another full partner with MDA and LM in the CSC Frigate design phase. If this is indeed the correct X Band Illuminator radar, then CEA in coordination with MDA/LM will integrate it into the CSC Frigate's CCMS 330 and weapons systems. It would be very helpful if we could hear from our Australian friends on this subject, as CEA Technologies are supplying the CEAMOUNT X Band Illuminator and CEAFAR S Band radars for their Hunter class Frigates. My thoughts at first were that it may have been the Star Fire 500 X Band radar from Kronos, but they are not a partner with LM. If you think I am mistaken on this, please supply a quote that backs up your comments. I would very much appreciate your thoughts. Cheers!

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjh5qf8jI3nAhUxU98KHerYADQQFjAAegQIBBAB&url=https://www.cea.com.au/!Global/Directory.php?Location=ProductsServices:ContinuousWaveIlluminators:CEAMOUNT&usg=AOvVaw0lOPRPo6ukNG4qJ41BOP7O
Black Jack Shellac said:
David

Sorry, but I think you are mistaken. @Calculus provided a link from LM which stated that LM is providing the S band radar. @Rangitoto provided a link that MDA is providing the X band illuminator. Your link only provides information about the CEAMOUNT with no indication that it is being used on the CSC. I believe you are just speculating. And for now, I think I can trust @Rangitoto's link.

Cheers
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DAVID DUNLOP

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ngatimozart said:
@DAVID DUNLOP As @Black Jack Shellac noted, you are just speculating. Passing speculation as fact is not on. Don't do it again. The Moderators will be less tolerant.
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Hi ngatimozart. Good to hear from you. As my latest feed to Black Jack Shellac has said, I have never speculated as fact that the CEA Technologies X Band Illuminator radar product will be fitted on the CSC Frigate. Just that it may be. But what is fact, is that this is a CEA Technologies Illuminator radar and not an MDA product as has been quoted. If I am expressing something different, please let me know and I will be more precise in the future. Good to know you're keeping me on my toes. Cheers! :)
 
Black Jack Shellac

Black Jack Shellac

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DAVID DUNLOP said:
Hi Black Jack Shellac. Great to hear from you! I don't believe I have ever said that Lockheed Martin was not providing the SPY 7 (V) 1 LRDR for the CSC Frigates. Yes, this is a LM S-Band AESA radar and MDA, as a full partner with LM, will be integrating this radar. I have also never said that the CSC X Band radar was indeed the one that will be supplied from CEA Technologies for the CSC Frigates. Just that it may be. IMO this radar may be the one our CSC Frigates will be fitted with but I can't, of course, be sure. The facts are, that this CEAMOUNT X Band Illuminator radar is indeed a CEA Technologies product as the quote below shows, and not an MDA product as Rangitoto has eluded to in his quote. If the X band radar for the CSC Frigates is indeed an MDA product, I would like to know what it is. I have seen nothing from MDA on this. CEA is another full partner with MDA and LM in the CSC Frigate design phase. If this is indeed the correct X Band Illuminator radar, then CEA in coordination with MDA/LM will integrate it into the CSC Frigate's CCMS 330 and weapons systems. It would be very helpful if we could hear from our Australian friends on this subject, as CEA Technologies are supplying the CEAMOUNT X Band Illuminator and CEAFAR S Band radars for their Hunter class Frigates. My thoughts at first were that it may have been the Star Fire 500 X Band radar from Kronos, but they are not a partner with LM. If you think I am mistaken on this, please supply a quote that backs up your comments. I would very much appreciate your thoughts. Cheers!

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjh5qf8jI3nAhUxU98KHerYADQQFjAAegQIBBAB&url=https://www.cea.com.au/!Global/Directory.php?Location=ProductsServices:ContinuousWaveIlluminators:CEAMOUNT&usg=AOvVaw0lOPRPo6ukNG4qJ41BOP7O
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Sorry David, colour me confused.

First point:
DAVID DUNLOP said:
I don't believe I have ever said that Lockheed Martin was not providing the SPY 7 (V) 1 LRDR for the CSC Frigates
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Agreed, and I never suggested you did. My comments were referencing the X-Band illuminator only.

Second point:
DAVID DUNLOP said:
The facts are, that this CEAMOUNT X Band Illuminator radar is indeed a CEA Technologies product as the quote below shows, and not an MDA product as Rangitoto has eluded to in his quote.
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I know that CEAMONT X Band illuminator is CEA product and I don't see where @Rangitoto ever suggested otherwise. That is not the point. The point is who is providing the Radar for the CSC.

The link @Rangitoto provided is quite clear - "One of Lockheed Martin’s many Canadian-based industry partners for the new frigates’ weapons system includes MDA, which will furnish the solid-state, X-band illuminator to guide and command the vessel’s weapons, along with other content." (emphasis mine).

So unless Monch Publishing Group are not considered a reliable source, it seems pertty clear that MDA is furnishing the X-band illuminator. Now it could be that the Illuminator is the CEA product that MDA is implementing, I just haven't seen any information that would suggest this either way.

I believe that what the radar is, is still unknown; but whatever it is, it will be furnished by MDA. The only other possibility is that Monch misunderstood the LM representative and he (the LM rep) was refering to the S band radar. But the comment is pretty specific so that seems very unlikely.

Cheers
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

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DAVID DUNLOP said:
Hi ngatimozart. Good to hear from you. As my latest feed to Black Jack Shellac has said, I have never speculated as fact that the CEA Technologies X Band Illuminator radar product will be fitted on the CSC Frigate. Just that it may be. But what is fact, is that this is a CEA Technologies Illuminator radar and not an MDA product as has been quoted. If I am expressing something different, please let me know and I will be more precise in the future. Good to know you're keeping me on my toes. Cheers! :)
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Be advised that arguing semantics with Moderators is a losing game. End of conversation.
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

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Black Jack Shellac said:
Sorry David, colour me confused.

First point:

Agreed, and I never suggested you did. My comments were referencing the X-Band illuminator only.

Second point:

I know that CEAMONT X Band illuminator is CEA product and I don't see where @Rangitoto ever suggested otherwise. That is not the point. The point is who is providing the Radar for the CSC.

The link @Rangitoto provided is quite clear - "One of Lockheed Martin’s many Canadian-based industry partners for the new frigates’ weapons system includes MDA, which will furnish the solid-state, X-band illuminator to guide and command the vessel’s weapons, along with other content." (emphasis mine).

So unless Monch Publishing Group are not considered a reliable source, it seems pertty clear that MDA is furnishing the X-band illuminator. Now it could be that the Illuminator is the CEA product that MDA is implementing, I just haven't seen any information that would suggest this either way.

I believe that what the radar is, is still unknown; but whatever it is, it will be furnished by MDA. The only other possibility is that Monch misunderstood the LM representative and he (the LM rep) was refering to the S band radar. But the comment is pretty specific so that seems very unlikely.

Cheers
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Could not agree more with your comments BJS. You are absolutely correct, we really do not know what X Band radar will be fitted on the CSC Frigate to compliment the SPY 7 (V) 1. IMO, I do believe though, that the writer of the Monch article may have just miss-understood that this radar was an MDA product which led to the confusion. It could very well be that both CEA & MDA will be jointly working to integrate this radar. I am not speculating here but for what other reason would CEA become a full partner with LM in the design phase contract? If you can take a closer look at the "other" X Band radar on the CSC Frigate drawings, it could be 2 or 3 different types of X Band radars all from different companies other than CEA Technologies. Cheers! :)
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

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Black Jack Shellac said:
David

I think you are confusing CAE with CEA. CAE is a Canadian company that specializes in training. Whereas CEA is an Australian company specializing in radar. I cannot find any reference that CEA is involved in the CSC.

Cheers
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Yes, BJS you are absolutely correct! How dyslexic and stupid can I get! CAE designs trainers and not radars and nothing about CEA technolopgies supplying the X Band Illuminator Radar from CEA. So back to square one on the CSC X Band radar. I could speculate but have been told not to. Can you shed any light on the "other" radar on the CSC mast? Cheers!:eek:
 
Black Jack Shellac

Black Jack Shellac

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LRDR

I thought this was a well written article explaining the physics and cost behind the decision for S band vs X band in the LRDR (now SPY-7) radar.
The bottom line was to get the same sensitivity from X band as S band requires twice the number of transmit/receive modules. The advantage of X band is better discrimination, but the improvement was not considered good enough to justify the higher cost.
 
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