Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I see he’s had an Anzac command but also a lot of staff jobs. Maybe that’s what you need these days to learn all the corporate buzzwords delivered in that speech.
Got to say Sammut was noted for his presentations. He tends to cut a more direct and less buzz word driven communication. He will always be famous for his explanation to Pauline Hanson for what a Pumpjet is not. I think Sammut is happy where he is and the project he has. Going up to Navy chief I think has always been a bit about those who enjoy the hobknobing and doing those sort of things.
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
Hi all.

I've just read the Type 31 gun choice, which lead me to wonder what the rationale for a 5 inch gun was for the RAN, since as far as I can google, it doesn't do artillary support.

So for example, if the Oto Melara 76mm gun single/dual superfiring position (like the Iver huitfedt) /dual side by side (like the Horizon Class) was used instead, they'd have a wide range of shells, with a range up to 40 km (manufacturer claims), and with Strales- anti aircraft/missile capability. It's frustraing that little data is available on the effectiveness of any of these systems.

I know the 5 inch gun is locked in, but I wonder if it's just to have commonality with the US, logisitics or if there's another reason, rather than other options
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hi all.

I've just read the Type 31 gun choice, which lead me to wonder what the rationale for a 5 inch gun was for the RAN, since as far as I can google, it doesn't do artillary support.

(snip for brevity)

I know the 5 inch gun is locked in, but I wonder if it's just to have commonality with the US, logisitics or if there's another reason, rather than other options
Read up on the Battle of Al Fawr, where apparently HMAS Anzac was prevented from providing NGS by her 5" gun. It would have been the first time since Vietnam if she had the ability...
;)

oldsig
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Xaviers third report on Pacific 2019. This one focuses on the Attack submarine project. It's a short report.

 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
[
Read up on the Battle of Al Fawr, where apparently HMAS Anzac was prevented from providing NGS by her 5" gun. It would have been the first time since Vietnam if she had the ability...
;)

oldsig
Remember reading somewhere at the time that the MK 45 127mm ran rings around the RN ships armed with the MK 8 114mm
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
Hi all.

I've just read the Type 31 gun choice, which lead me to wonder what the rationale for a 5 inch gun was for the RAN, since as far as I can google, it doesn't do artillary support.

So for example, if the Oto Melara 76mm gun single/dual superfiring position (like the Iver huitfedt) /dual side by side (like the Horizon Class) was used instead, they'd have a wide range of shells, with a range up to 40 km (manufacturer claims), and with Strales- anti aircraft/missile capability. It's frustraing that little data is available on the effectiveness of any of these systems.

I know the 5 inch gun is locked in, but I wonder if it's just to have commonality with the US, logisitics or if there's another reason, rather than other options
With the rapid development of HVPs the 5" gun will supplement or even replace missiles in some roles. While this tech may find its way to the 76mm, the current developments are aimed at the large number of 5" guns currently in service.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Read up on the Battle of Al Fawr, where apparently HMAS Anzac was prevented from providing NGS by her 5" gun. It would have been the first time since Vietnam if she had the ability...
;)

oldsig
I might be misunderstanding you, but HMAS Anzac did provide NGFS...

https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/a-big-48-hours-for-the-navy-20030325-gdghlf.html
21 March 2003. HMAS Anzac fire-support mission – The Australian Naval Institute

Edit - never mind, I missed @oldsig127 's humour! Sorry mate
 
Last edited:

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I might be misunderstanding you, but HMAS Anzac did provide NGFS...
You are. Hence the winkey thing underneath my post and the very deliberate reference to an easily searchable example. The notion that we might be cutting ourselves off from providing NGS by using a gun that has been being used for that for decades struck me as quite silly enough to merit a little facetious post. My apologies.

oldsig
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Xaviers final report from Pacific 2019.


In the report Navantia Australia have released a concept design for a JSS. Details are:
  • 300 embarked forces
  • 160 crew - hopefully less
  • 3,600 tonnes fuel capability
  • 500 tonnes vehicle cargo capacity
  • 176 m overall length
  • 25 m beam
  • 20 kt speed approx
  • 6,000 nm range approx
Navantia Australia say that it fits within the Galicia class range, but is a sovereign design and exportable from Australia. They said that they believe that the CoA will be issuing a requirement for such a vessel late 2020. I grabbed some images from the video.
Navaantia AU JSS design 2.jpg Navaantia AU JSS design 7.jpg Navaantia AU JSS design.jpg

Also, there is an item on concept cabin design for the attack subs and another on the MTU diesels for the subs.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Xaviers final report from Pacific 2019.


In the report Navantia Australia have released a concept design for a JSS. Details are:
  • 300 embarked forces
  • 160 crew - hopefully less
  • 3,600 tonnes fuel capability
  • 500 tonnes vehicle cargo capacity
  • 176 m overall length
  • 25 m beam
  • 20 kt speed approx
  • 6,000 nm range approx
Navantia Australia say that it fits within the Galicia class range, but is a sovereign design and exportable from Australia. They said that they believe that the CoA will be issuing a requirement for such a vessel late 2020. I grabbed some images from the video.
View attachment 46763 View attachment 46764 View attachment 46765

Also, there is an item on concept cabin design for the attack subs and another on the MTU diesels for the subs.

Is this for the Pacfic support ship that was announced sometime ago?
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Is this for the Pacfic support ship that was announced sometime ago?
Don’t think so, I wouldn’t think AO capabilities would be a requirement for the Pacific Ship. I think its more aimed at the Project from the DWP for either another AOR or another Amphib, trying to get both capabilities into one Hull
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Don’t think so, I wouldn’t think AO capabilities would be a requirement for the Pacific Ship. I think its more aimed at the Project from the DWP for either another AOR or another Amphib, trying to get both capabilities into one Hull
Agree, does appear to be an attempt by Navantia to have a foot in both camps when it comes to a decision on either the 3rd AOR or 2nd LPD.

Actually they can offer three different designs, a pure AOR such as another Supply class ship, or a pure LPD based on their Enforcer design ships, and a hybrid as above.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I recall something about cavitation between the hulls being an issue, no references on it just a conversation with someone from the MH community. Would you know anything on this? Any substance to it or is it just an unfounded story?
There certainly was something about interaction of waveforms between the hulls, but I can’t for the life of me remember what it was. Where’s Richard Lamacraft when you need him?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
No official link to the Pacific ship. Too big to be built in Australia at currently facilities (!). Not sure if this is what they had in mind for the Pacific ship.

But it would seem that it was known to be in development and in development for a need. Merging the AOR/Amphib has been tried before. However, I quite like this combo. I think instead of a 3rd AOR something like this might get a look in. It can do the AOR role, but with additional capabilities. I guess the crew for this comes from Choules?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Don’t think so, I wouldn’t think AO capabilities would be a requirement for the Pacific Ship. I think its more aimed at the Project from the DWP for either another AOR or another Amphib, trying to get both capabilities into one Hull
Agree, does appear to be an attempt by Navantia to have a foot in both camps when it comes to a decision on either the 3rd AOR or 2nd LPD.

Actually they can offer three different designs, a pure AOR such as another Supply class ship, or a pure LPD based on their Enforcer design ships, and a hybrid as above.
My thinking is that it might be aimed at being a Choules replacement. It would fit the bill in most aspects, plus add AO capabilities that wouldn't go astray. I see the JSS capability as something that would greatly enhance the RAN amphib capabilities, more so than Choules has.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
My thinking is that it might be aimed at being a Choules replacement. It would fit the bill in most aspects, plus add AO capabilities that wouldn't go astray. I see the JSS capability as something that would greatly enhance the RAN amphib capabilities, more so than Choules has.
Poor old Choules, she seems to be in line for a kicking from time to time, she seems to be treated like the poor step sister at times too.

Looking at the Navantia JSS proposal firstly, one thing that is said in the Naval News video from Pacific 2019, is that the JSS will have 70% of the load capacity of Choules and 70% of the fuel capacity of Success, in other words the JSS is a compromise ship, neither fish nor fowl, listen to the video at the approx. 1.35min mark:


The JSS is a long way from being an enhancement of the RAN amphibious capability, it is actually a backward step from what Choules currently delivers, 30% less. Yes she was a purchase of opportunity, but at $100m, I think she was a bargain, and especially when you look at the ship she replaced, eg, Tobruk, she is a massive leap in capability (equally when you look at the two LHDs vs the two LPAs, all three ships are a massive leap in amphibious capability across the board).

The reported dimensions of the JSS appears to be pretty much the same as Choules, which is pretty much the same as the Netherlands Johan de Witt, all three ships are approx. 176m in length.

https://products.damen.com/-/media/...Landing_Platform_Dock_HNLMS_Johan_de_Witt.pdf

Personally I'd rather see Choules be replaced by a Johan de Witt over the JSS any day of the week, if Government does decide to add that second LPD, then two copies wouldn't go astray either.

If Government decides on a 3rd AOR and just replace Choules one for one (no second LPD), then I'd rather see the 3rd AOR be another Supply AOR and the Choules replacement a single Johan de Witt.

Anyway, just my opinion of course.

Cheers,
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Poor old Choules, she seems to be in line for a kicking from time to time, she seems to be treated like the poor step sister at times too.

Looking at the Navantia JSS proposal firstly, one thing that is said in the Naval News video from Pacific 2019, is that the JSS will have 70% of the load capacity of Choules and 70% of the fuel capacity of Success, in other words the JSS is a compromise ship, neither fish nor fowl, listen to the video at the approx. 1.35min mark:


The JSS is a long way from being an enhancement of the RAN amphibious capability, it is actually a backward step from what Choules currently delivers, 30% less. Yes she was a purchase of opportunity, but at $100m, I think she was a bargain, and especially when you look at the ship she replaced, eg, Tobruk, she is a massive leap in capability (equally when you look at the two LHDs vs the two LPAs, all three ships are a massive leap in amphibious capability across the board).

The reported dimensions of the JSS appears to be pretty much the same as Choules, which is pretty much the same as the Netherlands Johan de Witt, all three ships are approx. 176m in length.

https://products.damen.com/-/media/...Landing_Platform_Dock_HNLMS_Johan_de_Witt.pdf

Personally I'd rather see Choules be replaced by a Johan de Witt over the JSS any day of the week, if Government does decide to add that second LPD, then two copies wouldn't go astray either.

If Government decides on a 3rd AOR and just replace Choules one for one (no second LPD), then I'd rather see the 3rd AOR be another Supply AOR and the Choules replacement a single Johan de Witt.

Anyway, just my opinion of course.

Cheers,
The JSS seems a very interesting concept.
I'm one that does like the Swiss army knife approach for a Navy of our size.
Jack of all trades and master of none etc.
Just wondering how such a hull for works carrying both a significant amount of fuel storage and at the same time having a well dock and the need to ballast.
Seems like a lot of variables to play with.

Talking of HMAS Choules, I noticed she was berthed with the Spirit of Tasmania in the Port of Melbourne today.
We don't see much of the fleet here, so it's a;way a treat when a naval ship passes through.

Regards S
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Optimizing the RCN ‘s initial JSS design required years and finally became so expensive the government cancelled it and restarted the process. The RCN then ended up with a minimally modified Berlin AOR. Granted this was mostly due to our appalling procurement process but I think doing a Swiss knife approach to an existing design will mission creep it to death unless there are stringent limitations imposed.
 
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