Missile Carrier.

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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Would it be any worse than losing a $2B DDG?

Assuming each cell costs $2M to fill, on average, and an arsenal ship costs $1B to build.

1 x DDG costing $2B + 96 VLS cells at $2M each = $2.2B
1 x Arsenal ship costing $1B + 512 VLS cells = $2B

The DDG can defend itself, for sure, but maybe carries 1/10th the offensive firepower.

How long it takes to manufacture 500 missiles is entirely dependent on the missile build rate. If we want to build more, we invest in larger/more factories. At the height of TACTOM production, we build 496 missiles in a year (2008), but there's no fundamental reason we couldn't build ten times that many per year, if we wanted to.
I would argue that yes, it would be worse, because the arsenal ship would be essentially unable to defend itself (unless it was fitted with the appropriate systems like are found aboard a DDG) and would likely not even be aware that it was being targeted or engaged until it was too late. If the USN to operate a 500-cell arsenal ship within striking range of mainland China, the PRC would become aware of that fact. I would then expect them to make finding it a priority, and following that, finding a way to neutralize it before the missiles in the VLS cells could be launched. In order to prevent that, the USN would need to embed arsenal ships into CSG's to protect them vs. aerial, surface and undersea threats. I frankly think the cost too high, and potential strike value too little for it to really be considered worthwhile.

If the USN really did wish to increase it's potential strike capability and add a conventional strike deterrent, then I believe that modifying some of the plans for the upcoming Columbia-class SSBN to make a SSGN variant, like was done with four of the Ohio-class subs, would be the way to go. The PRC would likely be able to tell where the USN had such subs based, and might be able to keep track of when they were in port, but once underway out at sea...

The VLS cell count would likely be quite a bit lower than a concept arsenal ship, but being a sub would be much less vulnerable when deployed to air and surface threats, and honestly would likely be better kitted out to evade or engage underwater threats.

Otherwise the only way I can really think of an arsenal ship being valuable would be if the vessel was disguised like a q-ship, if that is something that could even be done today.
 

B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I would argue that yes, it would be worse, because the arsenal ship would be essentially unable to defend itself (unless it was fitted with the appropriate systems like are found aboard a DDG) and would likely not even be aware that it was being targeted or engaged until it was too late. If the USN to operate a 500-cell arsenal ship within striking range of mainland China, the PRC would become aware of that fact. I would then expect them to make finding it a priority, and following that, finding a way to neutralize it before the missiles in the VLS cells could be launched. In order to prevent that, the USN would need to embed arsenal ships into CSG's to protect them vs. aerial, surface and undersea threats. I frankly think the cost too high, and potential strike value too little for it to really be considered worthwhile.

If the USN really did wish to increase it's potential strike capability and add a conventional strike deterrent, then I believe that modifying some of the plans for the upcoming Columbia-class SSBN to make a SSGN variant, like was done with four of the Ohio-class subs, would be the way to go. The PRC would likely be able to tell where the USN had such subs based, and might be able to keep track of when they were in port, but once underway out at sea...

The VLS cell count would likely be quite a bit lower than a concept arsenal ship, but being a sub would be much less vulnerable when deployed to air and surface threats, and honestly would likely be better kitted out to evade or engage underwater threats.

Otherwise the only way I can really think of an arsenal ship being valuable would be if the vessel was disguised like a q-ship, if that is something that could even be done today.
Arsenal ships would require escort, for sure. They could be embedded in CSGs, or just operate within the influence area of a CSG or land base. Assuming Guam was hardened to survive missile strikes, arsenal ships could operate under its fighter and AEW air cover.

A longer-range Tomahawk follow-on could further improve standoff. Even without one, arsenal ship task forces could operate outside the range of Chinese air-refueled fighters in peacetime, and only push in during wartime.

I'm counting on the Chinese knowing they're out there. That's part of their deterrence effect. They can try to find them and neutralize them, but remember even a 500+ cell arsenal ship can dump its entire warload in a few minutes. Not much time to kill them if they're hitting pre-planned targets.

SSGNs really don't move the needle enough to be worthwhile, and they cost a TON. The procurement costs for a new Columbia-class boat are on the order of $7.4B each. Add in their paltry missile loadout, and you could buy four of the 512-cell arsenal ships mentioned above. That's over 2,000 missiles vs a mere 112 for the SSGN.

Of course my arsenal ship cost estimate was just a guess. It could be more or significantly less.

Commercial conversions (e.g. q-ships) might be an option, but the more missiles you put on it the more you'll want to control signatures and add survivability features. And I don't think we'll be fooling the Chinese with q-ships. Given their expensive payload, they'll still need to be escorted.

If we did go on the larger end, it might be worthwhile to add a modest sensor suite, such as that on the the forthcoming FFG (i.e. EASR, VDS). It probably wouldn't cost that much more. EASR is fairly cheap, and provides roughly SPY-1D(V)-equivalent sensitivity. It could then host and target its own ESSM/SM-6/VLAs for self defense. That would take some of the escort pressure off of the rest of the fleet.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Perhaps two types of arsenal ships are needed, both appearing identical but one not having missiles or a very limited load thus forcing your opponents to focus on fake arsenal ships. The ability to convert from fake to real would’ve useful. Only doable if the actual ship cost is reasonable.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Perhaps another solution, more out of the box, would be to use Bolt on launchers for both offensive and defensive systems. Said launchers could be bolted into the decks of anything for a container ship to a barge and used in theatre for surge a capacity. It also would fit with distributed leathslity concepts.

I think future answers will reside in the MUSV and LUSV projects DARPA is working on that will include VLS cell os varying numbers.


This Bolt-On Launcher Can Give Nearly Any Ship The Same Weaponry As A U.S. Navy Destroyer


Update in LUSV



https://news.usni.org/2019/08/14/navy-issues-draft-request-for-proposal-for-large-unmanned-surface-vehicle[URL="https://news.usni.org/2019/08/14/navy-issues-draft-request-for-proposal-for-large-unmanned-surface-vehicle"]Navy Issues Draft Request for Proposal for Large Unmanned Surface Vehicle - USNI News[/URL]
 
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B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Perhaps another solution, more out of the box, would be to use Bolt on launchers for both offensive and defensive systems. Said launchers could be bolted into the decks of anything for a container ship to a barge and used in theatre for surge a capacity. It also would fit with distributed leathslity concepts.

I think future answers will reside in the MUSV and LUSV projects DARPA is working on that will include VLS cell os varying numbers.


This Bolt-On Launcher Can Give Nearly Any Ship The Same Weaponry As A U.S. Navy Destroyer


Update in LUSV



Navy Issues Draft Request for Proposal for Large Unmanned Surface Vehicle - USNI NewsNavy Issues Draft Request for Proposal for Large Unmanned Surface Vehicle - USNI News
I'm not opposed to using USVs for this, but currently, they don't appear to have the payload per dollar necessary to carry the numbers of weapons I'm talking about. At $300M a pop for LUSV, that's going to quickly add up if that only gets you <32 cells (guess).

And once you make a ship a certain size, you might as well put a small crew aboard to handle day-to-day maintenance and upkeep.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
I'm not opposed to using USVs for this, but currently, they don't appear to have the payload per dollar necessary to carry the numbers of weapons I'm talking about. At $300M a pop for LUSV, that's going to quickly add up if that only gets you <32 cells (guess).

And once you make a ship a certain size, you might as well put a small crew aboard to handle day-to-day maintenance and upkeep.


I think the unmanned surface vehicles will be invaluable nodes in the growing network They also offer the advantage of being more expendable because they’re not crewed and can be used more forward of the conventional surface fleet.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I'm not opposed to using USVs for this, but currently, they don't appear to have the payload per dollar necessary to carry the numbers of weapons I'm talking about. At $300M a pop for LUSV, that's going to quickly add up if that only gets you <32 cells (guess).

And once you make a ship a certain size, you might as well put a small crew aboard to handle day-to-day maintenance and upkeep.
There are also many out there that might not be comfortable with the idea of fully autonomous killing machines plying the world's oceans. For example I can imagine situations where military or civilian vessels might be fired upon if they approach too closely to an armed USV.

There are also legal considerations that will need to be hammered out.

According to the current Carriage of Goods Conventions in order to be considered seaworthy, a vessel must be manned. If a vessel isn't considered seaworthy then it is fair game for anyone who wants to salvage it.
 
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spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
That doesn’t apply to warships, of course, which are sovereign property of the flag state. However, if there is nobody inboard to argue the toss then the legalities become a little moot, as they did with that sea glider the Chinese recovered some months ago.

You would certainly need a human giving any engagement authority, anything else is just asking for a tragic and embarrassing event.
 

Unric

Member
Having unmanned platforms with engagement authority in peacetime is crazy. But when things turn hot collateral damage might be less of a concern.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Its not just ships and aircraft that are being developed to be autonomous but tanks like the Russian Amata which is believed to have an unmanned sentry mode
Robotized T-72s in Russia? - Defense Update:
Russian Military Unveils T-14 Armata Semi-Autonomous Tank - Robotics Business Review
elegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/21/china-testing-unmanned-tank/
The U.S and the U.K have also been involved in the testing of A.I in land based mechanised units its of interest to read the article that there was a directive from the U.S dod that incorporated a human elemant to prevent unintended casualities (?)
'Optionally manned' robotic gun is Army's latest step toward autonomous weapons | ZDNet
Im not aware of any such international agreement on such and perhaps members here may know
 

B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Having unmanned platforms with engagement authority in peacetime is crazy. But when things turn hot collateral damage might be less of a concern.
Unmanned USV arsenal ships wouldn't have "engagement authority" at all. They'd essentially be remote missile magazines. People would still decide what to strike and when to launch. Just like Predators/Reapers today.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Unmanned USV arsenal ships wouldn't have "engagement authority" at all. They'd essentially be remote missile magazines. People would still decide what to strike and when to launch. Just like Predators/Reapers today.
Not sure if we our all on the same page here. I think we agree that these arsenal ships require human authorization for missile launch but what about actual automated ship defence systems for these vessels?
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
Its not just ships and aircraft that are being developed to be autonomous but tanks like the Russian Amata which is believed to have an unmanned sentry mode
Robotized T-72s in Russia? - Defense Update:
Russian Military Unveils T-14 Armata Semi-Autonomous Tank - Robotics Business Review
elegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/21/china-testing-unmanned-tank/
The U.S and the U.K have also been involved in the testing of A.I in land based mechanised units its of interest to read the article that there was a directive from the U.S dod that incorporated a human elemant to prevent unintended casualities (?)
'Optionally manned' robotic gun is Army's latest step toward autonomous weapons | ZDNet
Im not aware of any such international agreement on such and perhaps members here may know

Am I the only one who flashed straight the the movie Aliens, with the auto guns firing and the ammo counters clicking down.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I'm flashing to the Robocop board room scene.
I tend to flash to the terminator movie franchise myself or even the Cylons from the rebooted Battlestar Galactica series.

There is a common theme across human culture that it is inevitable that the machines will eventually rise up against us. Perhaps things won't be quite as dramatic in reality but we already live in a world that relies heavily on automated computer systems running just about everything. In the past, these systems have failed resulting in stock market crashes, electrical grid shutdowns and even the odd military alert.

As much as we would like to keep a human being in, or on the loop this will not always be practical. Response times might be too short to allow time for a human operator to assess a situation before authorising any action.
 

B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Not sure if we our all on the same page here. I think we agree that these arsenal ships require human authorization for missile launch but what about actual automated ship defence systems for these vessels?
AEGIS, Phalanx and SeaRAM all have autonomous modes already.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yeah but - those require user selection of auto which is therefore situationally dependant. Programming the criteria a human uses to decide to do that would be a non trivial exercise.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thank you all for posting but this thread’s topic has run its course — thread closed on request. It is starting to be a conduit for imaginary weapons discussion and hypothetical wish lists. Succinct arguments for and against have all been made.
 
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