MISTRAL now berthed at Darwin, with COURBET alongside PARRAMATTA.
Time to break out the Leica, Mr ASSAIL, Sir.
Marine Nationale (French Navy)
- Thread starter Spacearrow99
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Time to break out the Leica, Mr ASSAIL, Sir.
I took some from shoreside yesterday as I wasn't rostered on over the weekend. Tonight's the night, should get some close up shots from harbour side.MISTRAL now berthed at Darwin, with COURBET alongside PARRAMATTA.
Time to break out the Leica, Mr ASSAIL, Sir.
I'll send the all together.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
DGA Launched the RFI for Future French Navy OPVs Based Overseas
The French seem to be updating their lower-tier naval vessels in a fuss-free manner. They are looking for six OPVs, and it looks as if three of them will be stationed in the Pacific (Noumea and Tahiti). The RFI has them looking for something smaller than NZ's OPVs, at about 70 versus 85m. It will be interesting to see what design they settle on. I wonder if a smaller member of the Gowind family would be in their price range?
The French seem to be updating their lower-tier naval vessels in a fuss-free manner. They are looking for six OPVs, and it looks as if three of them will be stationed in the Pacific (Noumea and Tahiti). The RFI has them looking for something smaller than NZ's OPVs, at about 70 versus 85m. It will be interesting to see what design they settle on. I wonder if a smaller member of the Gowind family would be in their price range?
Good to see France matching its words with actions.
Unclear from this report whether or not the CdG TG is for Jeanne D'Arc Express 2019, or is additional.
The way matters are evolving, I think they'll need traffic lights near Djibouti to handle all the flat-tops that are either calling it home or at least swinging through.
News from NDTV.
France plans aircraft carrier in Indian Ocean
Agence France-Presse
October 20, 2018
Marsellle
France said Friday it would send its aircraft carrier to the Indian Ocean next year, to defend freedom of navigation at a time of growing Chinese assertiveness in disputed waters.
The Charles de Gaulle, currently in the southern French port of Toulon undergoing renovation, should be ready to sail to the Indian Ocean early next year, Defence Minister Florence Parly said.
France "has always stood in the front line in defence of the inalienable right of freedom of navigation in international waters," Parly told La Provence newspaper.
"Whenever there are infringements of this fundamental principal of international law, as is currently the case in southern China, we shall make a show of our freedom to act and sail in such waters," she added.
Whole article here - As Chinese Assertion Grows, France Plans Aircraft Carrier In Indian Ocean
Unclear from this report whether or not the CdG TG is for Jeanne D'Arc Express 2019, or is additional.
The way matters are evolving, I think they'll need traffic lights near Djibouti to handle all the flat-tops that are either calling it home or at least swinging through.
News from NDTV.
France plans aircraft carrier in Indian Ocean
Agence France-Presse
October 20, 2018
Marsellle
France said Friday it would send its aircraft carrier to the Indian Ocean next year, to defend freedom of navigation at a time of growing Chinese assertiveness in disputed waters.
The Charles de Gaulle, currently in the southern French port of Toulon undergoing renovation, should be ready to sail to the Indian Ocean early next year, Defence Minister Florence Parly said.
France "has always stood in the front line in defence of the inalienable right of freedom of navigation in international waters," Parly told La Provence newspaper.
"Whenever there are infringements of this fundamental principal of international law, as is currently the case in southern China, we shall make a show of our freedom to act and sail in such waters," she added.
Whole article here - As Chinese Assertion Grows, France Plans Aircraft Carrier In Indian Ocean
Being conventionally powered, the Attack-class submarine (which has the same beam dimensions but a shorter length) will still have an indiscretion ratio but these limitations will be mitigated by the growing maturity of battery tech, by SAFT (which is the supplier to TKMS and I would guess also for the Type 218SG, eventually).
Li-Ion batteries are going to increase underwater endurance and performance of large conventional submarines, like the Japanese Ōryū (the first Japanese submarine to mount lithium-ion batteries) significantly. The main downside to lithium-ion batteries is very well publicized: they are known to “runaway” and combust—exactly what you don’t want on a submarine. When they do so they produce very high heat, give off toxic fumes, expel conductive dust and are hard to extinguish using traditional means. To overcome these concerns, the designers are building larger lithium-ion cell matrices with reinforced boundaries and enhanced chemistry that is less susceptible to these events. Extensive short-circuit, saltwater intrusion, drop and impact testing has also been done to certify the batteries for such critical use. Also, a specialized fire extinguishing system will have to be installed.
Li-Ion batteries are going to increase underwater endurance and performance of large conventional submarines, like the Japanese Ōryū (the first Japanese submarine to mount lithium-ion batteries) significantly. The main downside to lithium-ion batteries is very well publicized: they are known to “runaway” and combust—exactly what you don’t want on a submarine. When they do so they produce very high heat, give off toxic fumes, expel conductive dust and are hard to extinguish using traditional means. To overcome these concerns, the designers are building larger lithium-ion cell matrices with reinforced boundaries and enhanced chemistry that is less susceptible to these events. Extensive short-circuit, saltwater intrusion, drop and impact testing has also been done to certify the batteries for such critical use. Also, a specialized fire extinguishing system will have to be installed.
Congrats to the Naval Group, the French Navy and the French Defence Procurement Agency (DGA), but also the Atomic Energy and Alternative Energies Commission (CEA), and TechnicAtome. Now, they are focused on finalising the Suffren tests at the shipyard, with the start-up of the nuclear boiler room in the coming weeks.
Good to see this underway, the reactor hold up was really dragging on.
Still be a while before its conducting sea trials, which are absolutely critical for both the class and any related designs. Accoustics and performance characteristics are key, and at least a worse case scenario base line will see if its all been worth it. Several gens of subs from multiple nations have needed significant reworking to address issues, the previous Rubis class is a case in point. These are certainly going to be more capable than the Rubis class, which were so tiny.
So much heavy commentary on nuclear in Australia, there is probably more than a passing interest in the actual reactor itself, if for bench-marking purposes.
Still be a while before its conducting sea trials, which are absolutely critical for both the class and any related designs. Accoustics and performance characteristics are key, and at least a worse case scenario base line will see if its all been worth it. Several gens of subs from multiple nations have needed significant reworking to address issues, the previous Rubis class is a case in point. These are certainly going to be more capable than the Rubis class, which were so tiny.
So much heavy commentary on nuclear in Australia, there is probably more than a passing interest in the actual reactor itself, if for bench-marking purposes.
The difference in power output between the nuclear powered Barracuda and the conventionally powered Attack class is significant but not as great as I would have thought. The output of the Nuclear reactor is pretty big (150MW) but the actual propulsion system only uses 10MW compared to 7MW for the Attack class.
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If they go with lithium Ion tech, there will be a huge ability to sustain high output operation for a significant period of time.
For example, you might be able to sustain ~20 kts for perhaps a distance of 1000km and cover that kind of distance in 24-36hrs. So all of a sudden, conventional subs aren't so static and easy to predict. I am curious to see how much generation they get and if they can do snort at ~15kt. You might have the ability to have very fast transits, which would be huge for Australia. It starts to make a lot more sense to based a sub of this kind of capability off a nuclear platform as they behave more simular to each other.
Also, to go from low speed to very high speed very quickly. Maximum speed I imagine would be quite similar, perhaps a kt or two different. Nuclear boats seemed to have moved away from very fast designs to more quieter and slower cruising speeds.
For example, you might be able to sustain ~20 kts for perhaps a distance of 1000km and cover that kind of distance in 24-36hrs. So all of a sudden, conventional subs aren't so static and easy to predict. I am curious to see how much generation they get and if they can do snort at ~15kt. You might have the ability to have very fast transits, which would be huge for Australia. It starts to make a lot more sense to based a sub of this kind of capability off a nuclear platform as they behave more simular to each other.
Also, to go from low speed to very high speed very quickly. Maximum speed I imagine would be quite similar, perhaps a kt or two different. Nuclear boats seemed to have moved away from very fast designs to more quieter and slower cruising speeds.
The real advantage of lithium ion batteries is the ability to reduce the time taken to recharge and extend the interval between charges. Transit speeds will always be as fast as is required but not so fast as to compromise radiated noise levels and reduced sensitivity of sensors. There would be nothing ASW forces would enjoy more than to find a target snorting at 15-20 kts, shallow, noisy and acoustically blind!
Time snorting is when a submarine is most vulnerable hence the great effort to reduce the time and interval.
I’m not current on Collins class practices but even at say 12/13 kts transit speeds they could still cover 300 miles per day, have good sonar performance and be quite power efficient with a totally acceptable indiscretion ratio.
Modern SSN sprint capabilities allow them to scoot if detected and to escort CBGs but I doubt their transit speeds would be vastly different from modern SSGs however both Astute and Virginia classes still state top speeds 25-30 kts.
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Well the speed when snorting is kinda flexible I guess. Its a balance between what you can cram into the batteries and what you want to use to move forward. Its I guess more about how much you can generate in that time to maintain an appropriate indiscretion rate. There was initial speculation about having 6 diesels, which would basically allow you to double your energy use during transit (or halve your indiscretion time) which could see significant increase in the cruising speed. But I think we will see a smaller number than that, perhaps 4. Fast snorting doesn't always makes you blind if you consider dismounted sensor platforms.
But with so much capacity and energy density, and the ability to deliver huge current without significantly impacting total capacity does make it a game changer. But the question is how much lithium ion and what type of chemistry. I definitely think we should be talking to the Japanese, It may be in the future, they join (or benchmark) our program, if the technology has evolved performance so far that conventional subs are better off being built from a nuclear design. There knowledge in this area is decades ahead (and different) of everyone else.
I think that was one of the things looking at reactor size and configuration and the efforts made into reducing drag on SSN's. I think the move is to quieter <20kt transits. Less refueling, less noise, more awareness, acceptable everything else. The days of chasing russian rockband rockets at 35kts are well and truly over.
But this also creates problems. Very far locations become difficult to reach simply through limits of endurance. US into the Indian ocean for example isn't easy. Long transits are long transits.
Remember that the French company SAFT is one of the leading battery producers in the world (as I recall has Li batteries fitted to satellites, the F-35 and A350) and recently announced links with both TKMS and Naval Group with their submarine solution:
Euronaval 2018: TKMS pushes ahead lithium-ion submarine battery | Jane's 360
Introducing Naval Group's new Lithium-ion batteries system for submarines
And I have read an MTU paper - cannot find link - that MTU 4000 series submarine modified generators, selected for Attack class, have been designed with a recharge rate matching that of Li-ion batteries.
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I think there was a lithium group setup in South Australia by Naval G.
But Australia doesn't have to shop Naval for batteries. We could go with American, Japanese or French tech. I would hope they are made locally.
Gental Seas reckons 6 MTU generators.
Submarine Matters: "German" Diesels to be on Australia’s future Attack class submarines
Submarine Matters: Australia's future Attack class submarine needs 6,000kW electrical output
So it is highly likely some sort of high density battery tech will be involved. I am sure lithium would be part of that, but even NiMH could be a massive leap and doesn't have the issues of Lithium and is still miles ahead of Lead acid and a price in between.
AFAIK the japanese replaced the stirling AIP with lithium, not throughout the whole boat, yet. But they have real operational knowledge and data. Their tech would be the lowest risk and the most proven at this stage. They are also rolling it out fast across their large fleet.
There might even be applications for lithium batteries on Nuclear submarines.
But Australia doesn't have to shop Naval for batteries. We could go with American, Japanese or French tech. I would hope they are made locally.
Gental Seas reckons 6 MTU generators.
Submarine Matters: "German" Diesels to be on Australia’s future Attack class submarines
Submarine Matters: Australia's future Attack class submarine needs 6,000kW electrical output
So it is highly likely some sort of high density battery tech will be involved. I am sure lithium would be part of that, but even NiMH could be a massive leap and doesn't have the issues of Lithium and is still miles ahead of Lead acid and a price in between.
AFAIK the japanese replaced the stirling AIP with lithium, not throughout the whole boat, yet. But they have real operational knowledge and data. Their tech would be the lowest risk and the most proven at this stage. They are also rolling it out fast across their large fleet.
There might even be applications for lithium batteries on Nuclear submarines.
Just remember that you are really only guesstimating because much of what subs do, even basic stuff such as snorting for how long, battery recharge rates etc., are OPSEC and those that do know don't say. Assail will have a far better understanding than those who haven't worked with subs or ASW. Yes transits are transits, but subs have their ways and they are hard to find if you don't specifically know where to start looking, especially if the sub is a quiet one.
Of course, nothing definite here, all shadows and speculation. Of course, those in the loop say nothing, as frustrating as it it. Not even defMins can jump in on this to clarify, which is why speculating on Australia's subs is a huge business, breakfast tv now has it as a daily segment. I would always respect Assails, Volks, Alexa and the other defpros, even the stealthy ones. Please do pick me up if I use any definate terms or if it sounds like I am trying to sell my rambling opinions as facts.
But there was some airing about basing US subs in WA for superior Indian ocean patrols. Possibly not just US subs either.
https://thewest.com.au/news/sound-southern-telegraph/call-for-us-navy-presence-ng-b88819160z
There was also the attacking of the attack class for "perhaps" not using lithium ion batteries.
Before they even hit the water, Australia's new submarines could be obsolete
At the same time there is very open discussion about nuclear power and nuclear weapons in Australia. Which is usually connected back to the submarines, either nuclear armed or/and nuclear powered.
Queensland Coalition MPs push for inquiry to lift Australia's nuclear power ban
Analyst flags the prospect of a nuclear-armed Australia as China's rise continues
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...da-argues-defence-expert-20190701-p52306.html
So, there is a lot of discussion currently. TBH I would imagine nothing is truly nailed down and the sub project is a very long project, and this stuff is latent in the background. If Peter Dutton ever was to become prime minister, and the security situation worsen, things might shift. I imagine Australia is asking a lot of questions of the French about a lot of things.
Lithium battery talk seems pretty mild speculation on this scale. I think its highly likely that it will be looked at, even if it isn't incorporated, and even if it is I wouldn't be surprised if its phased in, Lithium would provide huge gains in some areas, less in others. We sure as hell won't be fitting the giant fridge size NiCad battery like the Collins has for its 24v system.
Australia is watching the French sub program extremely closely, all aspects.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
France & Greece Working on G-to-G Agreement for Multi-Mission Frigates - Naval News
According to this, Greece seems want to join French Belhara class FDI multipurpose Frigate.
This type of market that British Type 31 try to get in the global market. Based on what French bring in last Singapore defense exhibition, they are also try to market Belhara Class to Asia Pacific.
French before try to bring FREEM class, but from what I read considered bit too expensive from many in Asia Pacific market. Belhara FDI multipurpose Frigate probably will get more traction in global market then FREEM.
According to this, Greece seems want to join French Belhara class FDI multipurpose Frigate.
This type of market that British Type 31 try to get in the global market. Based on what French bring in last Singapore defense exhibition, they are also try to market Belhara Class to Asia Pacific.
French before try to bring FREEM class, but from what I read considered bit too expensive from many in Asia Pacific market. Belhara FDI multipurpose Frigate probably will get more traction in global market then FREEM.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
One thing @Ananda it’s actually FREMM which translates into English as Frigate European Multi Mission.
The 3000-6000t Frigate Market is going to be very hard to break into, there is a lot of Modern designs all Modular from experienced
designers
Including
French Belhara
Italian FTI
German Meko A200
Danish Iver Hultfeldt
Dutch Sigma
Spanish F110
British Type 31e(whatever that ends up being)
Throw in the Japanese 30DX and South Korean Incheon class as possible exports and you have your work cut out for you
Ananda
The Bunker Group
@Redlands18 , thanks for the correction..yes that's the typo on me.
Just add on Damen plan for this Multipurpose 3000-6000 ton market.
Damen Sigma is seems for market Bellow 3000 (Corvettes and Light Frigate).
Damen for this range already put design called Omega that used DZP class hull.
But yes, this is already crowded market. Which seems for me put question on viability of British export plan for Type 31e. After all the lead contender for Type 31e is also (one of them) based on Danish Iver. So how they are going to used Type 31e for export market where Danish it self marketing Iver quite aggressive.
Danish Iver seems getting traction for Indonesia large Frigate program (compete with Damen Omega). This will open potential market in Asia Pacific for Iver further on.
Just add on Damen plan for this Multipurpose 3000-6000 ton market.
Damen Sigma is seems for market Bellow 3000 (Corvettes and Light Frigate).
Damen for this range already put design called Omega that used DZP class hull.
But yes, this is already crowded market. Which seems for me put question on viability of British export plan for Type 31e. After all the lead contender for Type 31e is also (one of them) based on Danish Iver. So how they are going to used Type 31e for export market where Danish it self marketing Iver quite aggressive.
Danish Iver seems getting traction for Indonesia large Frigate program (compete with Damen Omega). This will open potential market in Asia Pacific for Iver further on.