Royal New Zealand Air Force

4

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
South Korea confirms potential aircraft swap deal with Spain | Jane's 360

Spain may have come upith an ingenious way to offload some of their surplus A400Ms. It appears a swap for Korean beginner and avanced trainers is being contemplated by both sides.

Hmm - I wonder if Spain has a pressing need for vast quantities of milk power and frozen lamb?

I shouldn't joke, as I'm old enough to remember when NZ exported otherwwise-unsaleable dairy products to a cash-strapped USSR and took payment in Lada cars. Desperate times!
 
MrConservative

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
40 deg south said:
I shouldn't joke, as I'm old enough to remember when NZ exported otherwwise-unsaleable dairy products to a cash-strapped USSR and took payment in Lada cars. Desperate times!
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They did offer us used MIG's and Tanks as well in the early 1990's as a way to clear there then $100m debt.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I posted some stories on the Cyber thread about digital money. Of course most are aware the paper money presses working overtime as well. Barter trade might make a comeback.:D
 
B

beegee

Active Member
MrConservative said:
They did offer us used MIG's and Tanks as well in the early 1990's as a way to clear there then $100m debt.
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We should have taken a squadron of MIG 29s. We'd have been the darling of the exercise circuit, with everyone wanting us to participate so they could fly against real MIGs. Just like the re-unified Germany.

Also, I was still in the RNZAF at the time and would have loved to work on them. :D
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
ngatimozart said:
Thanks, but even at that it couldn't do a McMurdo trip without a PSR. There's also a difference between the ferry range and a payload range. It's a long cold swim if it's "fallen in the water" according to Eccles. I think the fuselage tanks may be at the expense of payload because they fit in the hold, but I am not 100% sure on that.
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Yeah, I'd like to know more about those fuselage tanks, but I wouldn't bet on them enabling the round trip with cargo & enough reserves to divert. And not a good place to go for a swim. ;)
 
Justin Case

Justin Case

New Member
ngatimozart said:
Thanks, but even at that it couldn't do a McMurdo trip without a PSR. There's also a difference between the ferry range and a payload range. It's a long cold swim if it's "fallen in the water" according to Eccles. I think the fuselage tanks may be at the expense of payload because they fit in the hold, but I am not 100% sure on that.
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Hi, friends,

Don't forget the possibility of using in-flight-refuelling. That's the way all naval fighters do when assigned to perform long range missions. Take-off is done near zero-fuel maximum weight (maximum payload) from a very short runway expecting refuelling just after. The result would be impressive for transport mission as well. The use of a single KC-390 as a tanker can multiply the operational capability of the remaining fleet.
Apart of that, Portuguese Air Force performed a comparison about the C-130 and KC-390 ability to transport a fully equiped batallion + logistics from Lisbon to Maputo. The results demonstrated that, due to the superior cruise speed, a KC-390 could do three missions a day, compared to the two missions possible with the C-130. The meaning is that you can accomplish the task in the same time with a reduced number of aircraft, or the same task in less time using the same number of aircraft.
That's meaningful in terms of overall costs. You can have more flexibility and more capability buying less aircraft, less spares, less maintenance...
Cheers,

Justin
 
N

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
I saw that too and had the same opinion. Not in the right class to replace the C130 but diffenetly a contender for the medium twin role if it is to be a capability restored. As much as I personally like the C295W the purchase of the C27 does provide commonality with the RAAF and access to the existing support infrastructure that is provided for the type in Australia.

If and its a big if what kind of numbers would be a likely purchase of a medium twin for the RNZAF, minimum three I would hope.
 
K

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Novascotiaboy said:
I saw that too and had the same opinion. Not in the right class to replace the C130 but diffenetly a contender for the medium twin role if it is to be a capability restored. As much as I personally like the C295W the purchase of the C27 does provide commonality with the RAAF and access to the existing support infrastructure that is provided for the type in Australia.

If and its a big if what kind of numbers would be a likely purchase of a medium twin for the RNZAF, minimum three I would hope.
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ASSAIL

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Novascotiaboy said:
I saw that too and had the same opinion. Not in the right class to replace the C130 but diffenetly a contender for the medium twin role if it is to be a capability restored. As much as I personally like the C295W the purchase of the C27 does provide commonality with the RAAF and access to the existing support infrastructure that is provided for the type in Australia.

If and its a big if what kind of numbers would be a likely purchase of a medium twin for the RNZAF, minimum three I would hope.
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It would only make sense if the Kiwis acquired the Herc 130J as their replacement tactical lifter.
Commonality would be the key, same engines, same glass cockpit, same cargo pallet size. All these are what swayed the RAAF.
The RNZAF has already displayed the need for a twin, the Andovers and Bristol freighters proved that so it therefor rests with government funding decisions.
The selection of platforms for both type of lifters obviously needs to be complimentary and that means LM/Leonardo or Airbus.
 
R

RegR

Well-Known Member
kiwipatriot69 said:
So is this an extra capability, to replace a capability gap mentioned with the retiring of the Andover, years ago?

Surely it can't be considered as a C130 replacement, given its range and cargo capability.
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I guess it is a little like how the C295 mpa was originally offered AS a possible replacement for the orions direct whereas in fact it would make a very decent complimentary 2nd tier asset at best.

I agree not really in the league of what we are looking for to replace the C130 direct and as Assail says would only really be ideal (considering added cost and it's realistic role) if we went down the C130j pathway for all the added benefits of commonality in use, training, support etc etc in much (though not as much obviously) the same way C295 would compliment A400.

Hopefully more food for thought into any combined package deal rather than a serious contender ie C130j/C27j or A400/C295 with hopefull consideration into meaningfully backing up the P8s. Either option I would be happy with to varying degrees just obviously not as the actual C130H replacement itself as as good as the C27j can be IMO cannot possibly fullfill even the current capability and therefore a step backwards. IMO would be akin to replacing the ANZAC frigates with OPVs albeit highly specced OPVs.

Another consideration would be the numbers of we could potentially acquire as no doubt for the same cost we could either get more C130js and less C27s or less A400s and more C295s to compensate/complement each other both with the usual plus and minus factors in terms of overall capability, operation and considerations (including proven platforms).
 
K

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
I'm willing to bet that our govt would sooner go the C27/ C130J mix because it's a safer bet than the A400M with the issues its had in the past, delivery delays included.And the price tag might put them off ,or we end up with too few numbers if they do buy.
 
B

beegee

Active Member
NZ is a small, geographically isolated country. We need larger, longer ranged aircraft than C27s or C295s.

In a country the size of NZ the NH90s and KA350s can fulfill the short haul role.
 
ASSAIL

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
beegee said:
NZ is a small, geographically isolated country. We need larger, longer ranged aircraft than C27s or C295s.

In a country the size of NZ the NH90s and KA350s can fulfill the short haul role.
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That’s missing the point about why NZ needs a battle lifter.
NZ may be a small country but it has shown from past experience that it has a need for this type of aircraft at home where larger aircraft are overkill and helicopters are both difficult to deploy and maintain in isolated areas, besides the NH90 fleet is too small and the aircraft too slow to and expensive to carry out the many varied missions.
One size does not fit all.

Realistically though if NZ was involved in an overseas sovereignty operation or a HADR mission they would have the capacity to help support a Battalian size unit without outside assistance.
 
G

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
RegR said:
Interesting development from janes. At least companies are showing legit interest I suppose.

Avalon 2019: Leonardo and Northrop Grumman team up for New Zealand Spartan bid | Jane's 360
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I say don't read too much into it... safe to say it's nothing more than them seeing an opportunity to make a pitch knowing a decision on C130 replacement is imminent and that their offering has potential. The C27 is definitely not a suitable C130 replacement per se in the NZ context although a handful in addition to 5 x C130J would be a welcome boost. But as I always harp on... wait till we see what the DCP says.

Also bear in mind whatever the DCP says, there is no guarantee what purchases it recommends will happen as Govts change & other demands on Govt coffers pop up.
 
B

beegee

Active Member
ASSAIL said:
That’s missing the point about why NZ needs a battle lifter.
NZ may be a small country but it has shown from past experience that it has a need for this type of aircraft at home where larger aircraft are overkill and helicopters are both difficult to deploy and maintain in isolated areas, besides the NH90 fleet is too small and the aircraft too slow to and expensive to carry out the many varied missions.
One size does not fit all.

Realistically though if NZ was involved in an overseas sovereignty operation or a HADR mission they would have the capacity to help support a Battalian size unit without outside assistance.
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You're the one missing the point. One size does not fit all, but we don't have the budget for "all".

The RNZAF is very small and doesn't have the budget to fund all capabilities. There's a reason the Andovers weren't replaced with a like aircraft (I had the misfortune of having to work on the horrible pieces of crap, but I digress). The value of such aircraft isn't worth the cost to the NZDF budget, there are far more important capabilities that need to be funded out of a limited budget.

Besides, I'm just repeating what the NZ MOD stated when they purchased the NH90s. If you think the NH90 isn't capable of fulfilling that role you can take it up with them.
 
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N

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
The common thread among posters on various forums frequented by many here who have experience on or with the Andovers in NZ service seem to hold a counter point to yours Beegee.

From what I have read the Andovers had issues but provided valuable service in country and deployed overseas in support of UN operations and other missions.

I am not a financial genius by any means but I know that the cost of doing nothing, avoiding commitment or underfunding in real dollars will cost handily down the road in loss of face and the confidence of allies.

The NZ government needs to step up and be the regional power that it should be in the SP. If larger aircraft such as the A400 or C2 are chosen for the strategic role then smaller aircraft will be needed for the tactical. Yes NZ is a small nation but it is a member of 5eyes and other international agreements and having a seat at theee tables means carrying ones own weight, excuse the punn.

Four C130J30 or KC390 and four C27J would go along way to providing tactical transport both domestically and overseas in a way that is "military" grade kit suitable for hot deployment.

The GOTD chose the NH90 and also chose to disband the ACF rightly or wrongly. And once the DCP is released we will all have our opinions. And opinions are like arses. We all have one.

Happy March all.
 
Cadredave

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
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