Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

John Fedup said:

Yep, I think Saab would be wasting their time and realistically so is Team Typhoon. If we wanted something like Typhoon, Boeing would also be offering the strike eagle in addition to the SH. As for the FREMM, the French couldn't accept the tender format which is why we won't likely be buying French subs should the government ever get around to planning a Victoria class replacement.

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John

What is it about the Gripen that you don't feel it would work for Canada and that Saab would be wasting their time. I don't hold an opinion, and I can only find fan-boy articles online, so am having trouble sorting out the reality from the chaff. There must be something that concerns you about it that I am not picking up.

Regards

The Gripen, like the other Euro contenders, don’t really bring anything new to the table. All were late bringing AESA radar to market compared to the US choices. Of the Euro contenders, only the Gripen would be cost competitive based on numbers I have seen. Pricing for a fully optimized Gripen NG would certainly be at the upper end of its price range $60 million, likely more. Remember, only a couple test NGs are flying. The F-35 is around 300 total and with full rate production soon to begin, the price should be in the $80 million range.

Assuming a $20 million premium for the F-35, what do we get above and beyond the Gripen? Based on training exercises with numerous other jets, the combination of superior situation awareness together with stealth makes the F-35 far more survivable in combat. The networking capabilities are only now starting to be appreciated. The F-35 program is on track for at least 3,000 jets, probably more based on a surge on non-US orders. This will be a huge incentive for investment in future upgrades which will be more cost effective due to the fleet size compared to the Gripen which likely never exceed 500 jets. Canada is a development partner so the business opportunities are better for such a large fleet.

The other negative for Saab is their proposed collaboration with Bombardier, a non starter for me. No more corporate welfare for Bombardier or defence business for Quebec, a province living off equalization payments while still trying to sell its population on separation. If we want older technology built in Canada, licensed built F-16s by Viking in Western Canada might be an easier sell. As a long term fast jet replacement, a poor choice as well.

John Fedup said:

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The other negative for Saab is their proposed collaboration with Bombardier, a non starter for me....

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Agree with your first two points but not your last.

When I am thinking about which plane, I am not thinking about what is "best for Canada", but what is best for the politicians, which are going to decide who will win.

The players on the table are:

Eurofighter - too expensive

F18 SH - Boeing has thoroughly pissed off the PM, Quebec and Canada - probably a non starter

F35 - from the airforce perspective the best option, from cost not bad - but the PM has a hate on for the F35 and said we wouldn't buy it, and I don't think he wants to lose face (after all, reputation is more important than doing the right thing).

Finally Gripen - cheapest option (Canada electorate loves cheap), would probably work (though not a good as the F35, but has long legs and is fast, not bad for Norad ops) and the PM will see the Bombardier thing as a winner. You can't win the election without La Belle Province, and this would play positively for Quebec for years. You can win without the West, so no joy for Viking and ok to kiss Bombardier a**.

Not saying the Gripen would win, I just think they have a pretty good shot at it from a political point of view.

Any kind of fast jet award involving Bombardier might go over well in Quebec but not the rest of Canada. West of Quebec would be impossible for junior, especially with Doug the thug running Ontario. Bombardier throughly stuffed up Toronto’s streetcar replacement. Can’t see much enthusiasm in the Maritimes either. The Canadian aerospace industry has much to lose if the JSF is not selected. Junior’s best argument, price, is no longer viable. His second less viable argument, performance, has been debunked throughly. He WILL pay a steep price for not selecting the F-35 and he knows it. This is why their will be no decision until after the election. Afterward the election only is fellow MPs will pay as junior will not seek a third term. Even our brain dead electorate will have tired of junior by then.

“By then”. Every person I talk too think Junior is the worst thing for Canada in general not just defence. I see the Gripen as a strong contender. Personally I see the need for two fleets. A couple of squadrons of F35 for the overseas stuff and Gripen for NORAD and North American operations.

We are already hard pressed to maintain a single fleet, having a dual fleet won’t improve this and I really don’t see much economic advantage although this is harder to estimate. For instance is our work share in the JSF program dependent on quantity ordered or fleet homogeneity?

John Fedup said:

Any kind of fast jet award involving Bombardier might go over well in Quebec but not the rest of Canada. West of Quebec would be impossible for junior, especially with Doug the thug running Ontario. Bombardier throughly stuffed up Toronto’s streetcar replacement. Can’t see much enthusiasm in the Maritimes either. The Canadian aerospace industry has much to lose if the JSF is not selected. Junior’s best argument, price, is no longer viable. His second less viable argument, performance, has been debunked throughly. He WILL pay a steep price for not selecting the F-35 and he knows it. This is why their will be no decision until after the election. Afterward the election only is fellow MPs will pay as junior will not seek a third term. Even our brain dead electorate will have tired of junior by then.

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I don't think the liberals worry about what is east of Quebec, they will always win there. BC is not an issue because the entire lower mainland is too busy smoking dope to care, BC will always split 3 ways, NDP and Liberal in the lower mainland and PC in the interior - so we don't matter. With 62 seats in the prairies that pretty much always go PC, they are pretty much ignored by the libs. So it comes down to Ontario and Quebec (always does in Canada). You're right about Doug and Ontario, the libs are in the poo there. but poling still shows a liberal lead. That is why I think Quebec is so important to them, win Quebec = win Canada.

On the other hand, one thing the PM could do to save face on the whole fiasco (it's like Sea King all over again, sigh) is say "look, I forced a competition and now we are getting the F35 for 30M less; I am so awesome". The Canadian public would buy that (ignoring that the price was coming down regardless). If he was smart, that is what he would do. But I don't give him that much credit. So he will probably just keep kicking this down the road until the F-18 turns into another F-104 as it turns 50 yrs old.

Novascotiaboy said:

“By then”. Every person I talk too think Junior is the worst thing for Canada in general not just defence. I see the Gripen as a strong contender. Personally I see the need for two fleets. A couple of squadrons of F35 for the overseas stuff and Gripen for NORAD and North American operations.

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Sorry, not going to happen. If it did, I would prefer to see a jet and something much lower and slower than a jet for support, perhaps a SuperCobra or Apache. But that would never happen.

I agree with that too Blackjack. We have discussed low and slow and I included AT6s as an armed escort and forward observer platform. Would love to see AH1Z but that’s not going to happen either.

Black Jack Shellac said:

On the other hand, one thing the PM could do to save face on the whole fiasco (it's like Sea King all over again, sigh) is say "look, I forced a competition and now we are getting the F35 for 30M less; I am so awesome". The Canadian public would buy that (ignoring that the price was coming down regardless). If he was smart, that is what he would do. But I don't give him that much credit. So he will probably just keep kicking this down the road until the F-18 turns into another F-104 as it turns 50 yrs old.

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Taking lessons from President Trump...…...God help Canada

Guys, too many brews for a proper response, will reply later, not sure if the response will be any better later. Xmas season!

I really can't see why this is even an issue.

On one side you have a state of the art fifth-generation fighter, and on the other you have a bunch of outdated 30 to 40 year old designs. There isn't even a significant difference in price.

This has now simply turned into a face-saving exercise as the Liberals will now obviously have to backtrack on the proclamation they made about the F-35 being an overpriced and underperforming fighter.

hauritz said:

I really can't see why this is even an issue.

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Pollies and egos.

If any one has any doubts about what a fluster cuck Canadian military procurement is, this article should put those doubts to rest. If buying pistols takes this long, the RCAF might as well be writing specifications for a 6th Gen fighter which might arrive as 7th Gen fighters reach testing stage. Pathetic!!!

Canada’s WWII-era pistols dangerously unreliable — but the quest to find a replacement drags on

John Fedup said:

If any one has any doubts about what a fluster cuck Canadian military procurement is, this article should put those doubts to rest. If buying pistols takes this long, the RCAF might as well be writing specifications for a 6th Gen fighter which might arrive as 7th Gen fighters reach testing stage. Pathetic!!!

Canada’s WWII-era pistols dangerously unreliable — but the quest to find a replacement drags on

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JBAG..

Just Buy A Glock.

I'm not saying they're perfect but they're pretty damn acceptable.

John Fedup said:

If any one has any doubts about what a fluster cuck Canadian military procurement is, this article should put those doubts to rest. If buying pistols takes this long, the RCAF might as well be writing specifications for a 6th Gen fighter which might arrive as 7th Gen fighters reach testing stage. Pathetic!!!

Canada’s WWII-era pistols dangerously unreliable — but the quest to find a replacement drags on

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I was in the RNZAF from 1974 - 82 and RNZN 1990 - 94. During both my stints we had the Browning 9 mm pistol and the ones we had in the RNZN were pretty worn - you could hear the bullet rattling down the barrel. About then, NZDF started replacing the Brownings with Sig-Sauer 9 mm pistols and recently they replaced those with Glock 9 mm pistols. They also replaced the L1A1 SLR when I was in the RNZN with the Steyr Bullpup 5.56 mm. I didn't like that weapon preferring the 7.62 mm SLR.

ngatimozart said:

I was in the RNZAF from 1974 - 82 and RNZN 1990 - 94. During both my stints we had the Browning 9 mm pistol and the ones we had in the RNZN were pretty worn - you could hear the bullet rattling down the barrel. About then, NZDF started replacing the Brownings with Sig-Sauer 9 mm pistols and recently they replaced those with Glock 9 mm pistols. They also replaced the L1A1 SLR when I was in the RNZN with the Steyr Bullpup 5.56 mm. I didn't like that weapon preferring the 7.62 mm SLR.

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I was a bit earlier than that, we started with the number 4 and the Smith and Western .38 When we did application wjth the SW 38, at a shoot we had to do it double action, which made thoughts of hitting the target about the same as winning Lotto. The comment at the time was that the only way you could hit a barn was to stand inside it and shut the door before you fired. The Sten was a little better, the no4 a lot better again and the Bren was the top of the class.

On a positive note, the Canadian Rangers are getting Sako 7.62 mm rifles to replace their God only knows how old Lee-Enfield 303s. Too bad the government of the day destroyed all of Canada’s FNs, 60 years ago otherwise they could have been used for the last 60 years although many Rangers may still have preferred the LEs.

John Fedup said:

On a positive note, the Canadian Rangers are getting Sako 7.62 mm rifles to replace their God only knows how old Lee-Enfield 303s. Too bad the government of the day destroyed all of Canada’s FNs, 60 years ago otherwise they could have been used for the last 60 years although many Rangers may still have preferred the LEs.

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Nice rifle the Lee-Enfield. I had a No 4 Mk 1* that I bought from the RNZAF for $15.00 in 1976 or 77. It had about 15 rounds through it according to the armourer SNCO before I had it so was basically brand new.

Absolutely a great rifle and there were vast quantities of surplus Canadian Lee-Enfields produced by the old Longbranch facility near Toronto. These rifles along with inexpensive 303 ammo were available well in to the 1970s at bargain prices.