New Zealand Army

steve33

Member
Trouble with social media is there is no way of verifying the validity of claims made. Is the person who made the claim a serving member of NZDF? Personally I wouldn't give the claim any credence until the person who made the claim provides independent verifiable evidence.
I,m not sure what is military status is i was just shocked at the comment because the NZDF didn't rush into the purchase they tested a lot of different systems before they settled on the MARS.

Is Cadre still on this forum he would know about the weapon.?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I,m not sure what is military status is i was just shocked at the comment because the NZDF didn't rush into the purchase they tested a lot of different systems before they settled on the MARS.

Is Cadre still on this forum he would know about the weapon.?
Yep @Cadredave is still lurking.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
You'll tend to find though even some serving pers will make some rubbish claims off even a single experience purely for the sake of complaining, hard to please everyone. The fact this guy is comparing it to an SLR is also alittle strange considering we have not used that rifle for essentially a generation which either makes him a pretty old serving per, used it a handful of times in the navy or is just going off the brochure but either way comparing red apples to green apples, a NZLAV is also heavier than an M113 but would'nt exactly consider that a valid complaint in the scheme of things either.
The person making the comment about the SLR may never have even seen one and still know that it weighs 5kg.
I am a bit dumbfounded that the MARS weighs 5.7 kg.....is that correct?
From what I can find out it states that the LMT service rifle weighs 3.3 kg unloaded, so the 5.7kg must have the M203/as well....?
Which you can't compare to an SLR.
I have used the SLR,F88,M16A1 and A2, M203, and a few exotics.
The SLR was my favorite in open/savanna country, but an M203 would have been a very close 2nd.
I never really warmed to the F88.
I found the design of the safety, trigger guard fairly unsuitable for our conditions, and magazine changes were also an issue for me.
Its not a terrible weapon, it has a few advantages, but I'm not a great fan of bullpup rifles for infantry soldiers. Truckies, SIG's, field engineers, arty etc, for sure. So I guess if you had to equip an army, then, the infantry get what they are given. For the record, I had a small role in the SARP project, which ultimately chose the Styer, even though it wasn't our first choice. (Our, being infantry)

I was already aware of the firing pin problem, the whole batch of pins were replaced.
All 10,000 of them.
 
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Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The MARS-L Rifle is rubbish - Cracked uppers, Broken Firing Pins, and at 5.7kg it weighs 700 grams more that the 7.62 mm L1AI SLR - LMC saw the NZDF coming and made a real killing

Someone made this comment on you tube is this an accurate assessment of the Mars rifle purchased by the NZDF it really surprised me to hear this from my understanding the NZDF took a lot of time trying different systems before they purchased the MARS.
MARS-L is an outstanding weapon during the trials it out shot & out performed all other trial weapons it was the most versatile weapon for off handed shooting etc and ergonomics, now if it was as rubbish as this person makes it out to be then why on earth did NZSAS replace all there M4 with the MARS-L. Thats one of the reasons I dont pay any attention to those defence pros on youtube, last but not least all replacements were still under warranty so LMT replaced all defective parts.

As for the weight 5.7kgs that will include the M203, plus sights day/night and any other ancillaries as the basic weapon weights 3.3kg I dont think this person has any idea what they are talking about TBH

CD
 
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40 deg south

Well-Known Member
MARS-L is an outstanding weapon during the trials it out shot & out performed all other trial weapons it was the most versatile weapon for off handed shooting etc and ergonomics, now if it was as rubbish as this person makes it out to be then why on earth did NZSAS replace all there M4 with the MARS-L. Thats one of the reasons I dont pay any attention to those defence pros on youtube, last but not least all replacements were still under warranty so LMT replaced all defective parts.
CD
BREAKING: Lewis Machine & Tool Rifles Win Estonian Rifle Trials -
Someone else has signed up to buy a whole lot more of them, so presumably it has been through another set of trials. The reports appear mostly unofficial, but news of Estonia ordering about double the amount of rifles as NZ has appeared on multiple defence sites in the last week.
 

steve33

Member
MARS-L is an outstanding weapon during the trials it out shot & out performed all other trial weapons it was the most versatile weapon for off handed shooting etc and ergonomics, now if it was as rubbish as this person makes it out to be then why on earth did NZSAS replace all there M4 with the MARS-L. Thats one of the reasons I dont pay any attention to those defence pros on youtube, last but not least all replacements were still under warranty so LMT replaced all defective parts.

As for the weight 5.7kgs that will include the M203, plus sights day/night and any other ancillaries as the basic weapon weights 3.3kg I dont think this person has any idea what they are talking about TBH

CD
Thanks for the reply cadre i found it hard to believe because i knew the NZDF didn't rush in to the purchase they did a lot of testing of multiple weapons before they settled on the MARS-L and i saw the latest video the NZSAS made available which had them using the MARS your right they wouldn't go near it if the weapon was low quality.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
SOCOM snipers will ditch their bullets for this new round next year

More than a rifle: How a new 6.8mm round, advanced optics will make soldiers, Marines a lot deadlier

The US is clearly starting to transition to a 6.5mm-6.8mm round would the NZDF be able to get the MARS-L set up to fire those rounds if they decided it was the way to go.?
Do not know. I read the article early this morning and from what it said may be cheaper to acquire a new weapon system. However don't forget that this new weapon system is only in the infancy stage at the moment and has a long way to go before it gets into soldiers hands even as test weapons for operational evaluation. The US have attempted similar before and it has ended up in the to expensive to hard basket, so we shall have to wait and see.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In the late 1940's and early 1950s' the Pom's develop a .270 weapon system that they wanted as the standard NATO round,Their studies at the time had shown that this was in their view the ideal size of round. But they were overruled by the US military. Maybe they were to far ahead of their time?
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
And history repeats itself.

Rob C you are correct. The original FN FAL was designed to chamber that round and because of US arrogance we ended up with the .308 or 7.62 mm round as the battle rifle caliber of NATO until Eugene Stoner and his M16 came along.
 

steve33

Member
In the late 1940's and early 1950s' the Pom's develop a .270 weapon system that they wanted as the standard NATO round,Their studies at the time had shown that this was in their view the ideal size of round. But they were overruled by the US military. Maybe they were to far ahead of their time?
Yes i remember reading that years ago what a shame they didn't go with it.
 

steve33

Member
Do not know. I read the article early this morning and from what it said may be cheaper to acquire a new weapon system. However don't forget that this new weapon system is only in the infancy stage at the moment and has a long way to go before it gets into soldiers hands even as test weapons for operational evaluation. The US have attempted similar before and it has ended up in the to expensive to hard basket, so we shall have to wait and see.
That creedmoor 6.5mm round sounds awesome i think it comes in a 129 grain and a 140 grain the MARS L is good with the 77 grain 5.56mm it would be even better with the creedmoor round it would take the weapon to another level again.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
That creedmoor 6.5mm round sounds awesome i think it comes in a 129 grain and a 140 grain the MARS L is good with the 77 grain 5.56mm it would be even better with the creedmoor round it would take the weapon to another level again.
That is getting very close to the standard 7.62 at 150 grain.
 

steve33

Member
That is getting very close to the standard 7.62 at 150 grain.
The US special ops tested the Creeedmoor and it out performed the 7.62mm hands down better range, accuracy, less effected by wind and less recoil so they are using it in their sniper rifles it was originally designed as a long range marksmanship bullet.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
SOCOM snipers will ditch their bullets for this new round next year

More than a rifle: How a new 6.8mm round, advanced optics will make soldiers, Marines a lot deadlier

The US is clearly starting to transition to a 6.5mm-6.8mm round would the NZDF be able to get the MARS-L set up to fire those rounds if they decided it was the way to go.?
You cant compare SOCOM with US Army they have a totally different funding regime than Army has and very different requirements, they (SOCOM) are like our SAS what they require they get, ie like the MK48 SAW SOCOM has it conventional army does not. SOCOM are strategic troops whereas Army are tactical CONOPS for the two are very different.

CD
 
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steve33

Member
You can compare SOCOM with US Army they have a totally different funding regime than Army has and very different requirements, they (SOCOM) are like our SAS what they require they get, ie like the MK48 SAW SOCOM has it conventional army does not. SOCOM are strategic troops whereas Army are tactical CONOPS for the two are very different.

CD
More than a rifle: How a new 6.8mm round, advanced optics will make soldiers, Marines a lot deadlier

I saw this as well the special ops were going to the 6.5mm creedmoor then i read this one about the conventional army going to a 6.8mm.

It is hard to know if it will actually go anywhere because they are going to have to settle on 1-2 calibers for their military no military wants to have to many different calibers because of the logistics.

Did our army get the Mk 48 to replace the C9 and we have one in each section.?
 

steve33

Member
They are going to have a referendum on legalizing cannabis in 2020 i never got to serve in the NZDF because of injury but i never lost my interest in the service and from my point of view i have no time for people using drugs and serving in the military there is to much at stake i wouldn't want to serve alongside a pot smoker i don't care what people who smoke say in it's defense the stuff slows down the mind that is a fact and in the military a split second can be the difference between life and death.

It will be interesting if they legalize it because if people fail a drug test for weed and don't get a job they will be able to turn around and say it is legal and there will be the risk of court action.

I had a long argument with a pot head about the issue and he said soldiers drink alcohol so what can't they smoke weed and my reply was because the stuff slows down your mind and reflexes for days after they have had a period of heavy use and it also opens the door for soldiers to use other drugs you are creating an environment that tolerates drug use.

I am interested in the opinion of ex and current serving personnel on this issue.

Cheers
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
They are going to have a referendum on legalizing cannabis in 2020 i never got to serve in the NZDF because of injury but i never lost my interest in the service and from my point of view i have no time for people using drugs and serving in the military there is to much at stake i wouldn't want to serve alongside a pot smoker i don't care what people who smoke say in it's defense the stuff slows down the mind that is a fact and in the military a split second can be the difference between life and death.

It will be interesting if they legalize it because if people fail a drug test for weed and don't get a job they will be able to turn around and say it is legal and there will be the risk of court action.

I had a long argument with a pot head about the issue and he said soldiers drink alcohol so what can't they smoke weed and my reply was because the stuff slows down your mind and reflexes for days after they have had a period of heavy use and it also opens the door for soldiers to use other drugs you are creating an environment that tolerates drug use.

I am interested in the opinion of ex and current serving personnel on this issue.

Cheers
Well when I served there had been the odd occasion of five where people had be known to turn up to work still inebriated from the night before and / or hung over to hell. IIRC in the RNZAF if you were aircrew it was 12 hours from bottle to throttle. The culture was really different then and such behaviour is not tolerated today. If one made a habit of it, one would find oneself on the outside looking in rather quickly. Drugs were not tolerated then by the powers that be and by many service personnel. They just weren't worth the power of manure that would get in if you were caught. Put it this way 28 or 56 days Ardmore (the then Service Corrective Establishment) was a very good deterrent. My own personal view is that if the wacky baccy is legalised in NZ then it should not be so within NZDF purely because of health and safety concerns around what people are required to do and the fact that it can be a precursor to other drug misuse.
 

steve33

Member
Well when I served there had been the odd occasion of five where people had be known to turn up to work still inebriated from the night before and / or hung over to hell. IIRC in the RNZAF if you were aircrew it was 12 hours from bottle to throttle. The culture was really different then and such behaviour is not tolerated today. If one made a habit of it, one would find oneself on the outside looking in rather quickly. Drugs were not tolerated then by the powers that be and by many service personnel. They just weren't worth the power of manure that would get in if you were caught. Put it this way 28 or 56 days Ardmore (the then Service Corrective Establishment) was a very good deterrent. My own personal view is that if the wacky baccy is legalised in NZ then it should not be so within NZDF purely because of health and safety concerns around what people are required to do and the fact that it can be a precursor to other drug misuse.
Yep that was my thinking on the matter as well.
 
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