Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Stampede

Well-Known Member
ASPI piece by Commodore Menhinick (Ret).

Australia must double defence spending to address worsening strategic outlook | The Strategist

Find it interesting that the response to a strategic threat is more large surface combatants (to be fair, he suggests more of everything).

I am not convinced that these are truly strategic and think they would be well down the list of expansion priorities.

Regards,

Massive


Interesting article by Menhinick.

Always difficult to look into the crystal ball know the answer. At best it's guess work.
Not wanting to get too Geopolitical. I'm open to a future of rapid change that could lead to Peace and cooperation or as history regrettable shows, tension and it's sad consequence of conflict.
The suggestion of a much increased Navy in size and quantity has an appeal, but it would need some serious bi partisan political support to get up.
Can it be justified?
The RAN by world standards is fairing very well in new equipment and build programs, so the question is how much more do we need?.
Without getting into fantasy fleet discussions; I'd suggest first do justice to all the RAN programs that are on going and fix in a timely fashion any deficiencies.
Once achieved then you could look at the options.
One suggest I do like and I have been an ambassador for is the retention of the last FFG's.
A fleet of thirteen Destroyers/ Frigates in the early 2020's has an appeal compared to the current alternate of eleven.
An increase in size of Naval human capital may be a good starting point.


Thoughts S
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
ASPI piece by Commodore Menhinick (Ret).

Australia must double defence spending to address worsening strategic outlook | The Strategist

Find it interesting that the response to a strategic threat is more large surface combatants (to be fair, he suggests more of everything).

I am not convinced that these are truly strategic and think they would be well down the list of expansion priorities.

Regards,

Massive
Easier said than done. To double the defence budget means cutting back in other areas. I can't imagine the Australian public accepting that without a really strong case being made.

I can see defence spending maybe creeping up above 2% but 4% ... I can't really see that happening. Even the USA only spend around 3% of its GDP on defence.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Any increase in defence spending will only come from one of two ways. Option A. We are in a war time scenario similar to WWII and are at it full tilt, Option B. We fix up our tax system. In most Western nations the tax to GDP ratio is generally in the 30 - 40 % range giving them much larger free cash (New Zealand is give or take around 35% last I checked) while Australia and the US for that matter are around 25-26%.

Going with option B you would be able to do an increase to say 3% (theoretically) over a decade long period. Would be pointless going to 3% budget in the 2019-2020 budget as most of the increase would be left untouched, Takes time to expand acquiring new gear and getting new people so would have to be a phased in approach.

Too many on the internet have the insane belief that automatically increasing the budget by 50 -100% will mean a 50 - 100% stronger force straight away. Only way to acquire such a force like that so quickly would be to go to a war time economy which wouldn't fly with the public anyway not to mention the diplomatic tensions it would cause with every other nation in our region.

Phased in build up with some of it being used to the advantage of South East Asian nations in expanded training, support, strategic investments etc would theoretically keep them happy thus keeping China off of our front door step to to speak.
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
Too many on the internet have the insane belief that automatically increasing the budget by 50 -100% will mean a 50 - 100% stronger force straight away. Only way to acquire such a force like that so quickly would be to go to a war time economy which wouldn't fly with the public anyway not to mention the diplomatic tensions it would cause with every other nation in our region.
Though this is not just someone on the internet but an RAN Commodore at ASPI.

Regards,

Massive
 

weegee

Active Member
Does anyone have a subscription to the Australian? I saw a headline about a RAN FFG sailing through the Taiwan Straight testing the Chinese resolve or words to the effect.
I don't have a subscription so can't read it unfortunately.
Nocookies
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
On increasing defence funding a big chunk of any increase would be used to fix existing deficiencies in equipment, facilities, personnel numbers and training. There are things that are not done, can't be done, are defective or broken and not being fixed due to lack of resourse.

The irony is a short term increase to fix existing deficiencies could (for a given level of capability) actually provide long term savings. This is simply because many things that are currently reactive could move to being proactive and preventative. Just look at what the RAN has achieved in sustainment and continuous improvement verses some army units that are having to bodge maintenance due to lack of equipment and consumables. (the maintenance gets done but it cost more than it should and take longer).
 

Oberon

Member
Does anyone have a subscription to the Australian? I saw a headline about a RAN FFG sailing through the Taiwan Straight testing the Chinese resolve or words to the effect.
I don't have a subscription so can't read it unfortunately.
Nocookies
I have a subscription. The vessel involved was HMAS Melbourne. She had just completed an excercise with the PLA-N in the South China Sea and then sailed to South Korea by way of the Taiwan Strait. People's Replublic of China then protested.

Also, the US made more of the incident from a propaganda point of view.
 
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t68

Well-Known Member
I have a subscription. The vessel involved was HMAS Melbourne. She had just completed an excercise with the PLA-N in the South China Sea and then sailed to South Korea by way of the Taiwan Strait. People's Replublic of China then protested.

Also, the US made more of the incident from a propaganda point of view.

That’s funny, it’s alright to play together but just do as we say ;)
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
There are several factors affecting the security of and around Australia.
* China - getting stronger, and its issues and changes
* US - I guess changing, or being less cohesive on policy, less obvious economic and military superiority (not just the US, but EU too)
* Indonesia - getting stronger and internal changes
* The APEC nations - looking for a friend Vietnam (China), Malaysia (multiple issues), Philippines (multiple issues).
* NK/Japan/SK/China thing.
* India/Pakistan - Australia is actually a very key player, historically and into the future, key powers struggle to project into this region.
* The Persian gulf - Again key player, many major powers struggle to project into this region.
* The smaller Pacific nations (PNG, Fiji, etc) and Indian ocean nations

All of which combine together to say hey, we probably really need to have well structured future plans for defence and aid/diplomacy direction going into the future. Particularly as key player and multi-regional leader.

I think it would be wise to plan out what would happen if we need a lot more capability and were willing to fund it to 3+%. Even with continued economic growth.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There are several factors affecting the security of and around Australia.
* China - getting stronger, and its issues and changes
* US - I guess changing, or being less cohesive on policy, less obvious economic and military superiority (not just the US, but EU too)
* Indonesia - getting stronger and internal changes
* The APEC nations - looking for a friend Vietnam (China), Malaysia (multiple issues), Philippines (multiple issues).
* NK/Japan/SK/China thing.
* India/Pakistan - Australia is actually a very key player, historically and into the future, key powers struggle to project into this region.
* The Persian gulf - Again key player, many major powers struggle to project into this region.
* The smaller Pacific nations (PNG, Fiji, etc) and Indian ocean nations

All of which combine together to say hey, we probably really need to have well structured future plans for defence and aid/diplomacy direction going into the future. Particularly as key player and multi-regional leader.

I think it would be wise to plan out what would happen if we need a lot more capability and were willing to fund it to 3+%. Even with continued economic growth.
I think you’re describing the “Thucydides Trap” on a number of levels.
President Xi Jinping says “we all need to work together to avoid the TC” and our deposed PM has also warned against it.

For those uninitiated Thucydides was an Athenian historian who warned of the risk of war between two great powers as one rises and the other is static or is declining in influence (Sparta and Athens and the resulting Peloponnesian Wars )or as you write, China and the US but it can be applied to most of the regional conflicts.

The point being, we should not fear the rise of China we should look to the positives and go to great lengths to nurture our relationships with both China and the US and take a positive Australian viewpoint to our foreign relationships. If that means travelling on a different path to the US on China, so be it but it will take both skill and luck to avoid the “Thucydides Trap”

My apologies to those who are well aware of ancient history and I’m trying not to sound too pompous.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think you’re describing the “Thucydides Trap” on a number of levels.
President Xi Jinping says “we all need to work together to avoid the TC” and our deposed PM has also warned against it.

For those uninitiated Thucydides was an Athenian historian who warned of the risk of war between two great powers as one rises and the other is static or is declining in influence (Sparta and Athens and the resulting Peloponnesian Wars )or as you write, China and the US but it can be applied to most of the regional conflicts.

The point being, we should not fear the rise of China we should look to the positives and go to great lengths to nurture our relationships with both China and the US and take a positive Australian viewpoint to our foreign relationships. If that means travelling on a different path to the US on China, so be it but it will take both skill and luck to avoid the “Thucydides Trap”

My apologies to those who are well aware of ancient history and I’m trying not to sound too pompous.
When you reach your age you are allowed a degree of pomposity
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
When you reach your age you are allowed a degree of pomposity
Oh so cutting .... noting I think a few of us resemble that remark. Every warship I served on is a museum item, sunk as a dive spot or razor blades
 

t68

Well-Known Member
An very interesting post StingRay, with Indonesian set to out strip the Australian economy will they become the dominate regional player?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Nah, with the stuff ASSAIL has done in his life deserves some kudos. Not many people have ridden out city destroying cyclones in a tin can and gotten all their blokes home safe.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
When you reach your age you are allowed a degree of pomposity
Cheeky sods, in my 70th decade I’m a prolific user of titanium, two shoulders and a knee. It lets you jump the queue at airport screening because the walk through lights up like a Xmas tree, just go to the front and ask to for the wand.
Sorry to be off topic but all you young Rugby front rowers, warning, it hurts after 70!
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
An very interesting post StingRay, with Indonesian set to out strip the Australian economy will they become the dominate regional player?
There is a fear that might happen.

I think that is unlikely. Indonesia is very much concerned with Indonesia, which is a complex place internally. While they are getting more capable and modernising, I don't think they will have the wider multi-regional significance Australia has. They aren't really concerned with that, at least in the foreseeable future, and while they will be come bigger, they are unlikely to become China sized big. In some ways I can see a repeat of some of the issues Malaysia has had in terms of development. They are likely to become another middle power looking for their place in with all the other middle powers.

Indonesia tends to stay out of things (such as the ME) and just tends to focus on its immediate surroundings. Malaysia, Singapore, PNG, staying Indonesia, trying to relate to Australia, Timor, etc.

But Indonesia can certainly give Australia multiple massive head aches, and could tie up Australian resources, outlook and focus. It always has, but it will be much more peer based and more capable. But I would say Singapore and Indonesia have more friction that Australia and Indonesia.

I think you’re describing the “Thucydides Trap” on a number of levels.
President Xi Jinping says “we all need to work together to avoid the TC” and our deposed PM has also warned against it.
There is certainly an element of Thucydides Trap. Krudd also believed that a power vacuum could develop as well, the so called Kindleberger Trap. Again, I think its possible, not perhaps imminent. But I think effectively that is one way to describe much of the middle east at the moment.

The point being, we should not fear the rise of China we should look to the positives and go to great lengths to nurture our relationships with both China and the US and take a positive Australian viewpoint to our foreign relationships. If that means travelling on a different path to the US on China, so be it but it will take both skill and luck to avoid the “Thucydides Trap”
I totally agree with you about taking the path. Which most likely means we have to prepare ourselves for greater defence autonomy and direction.

So increasing defence (and related) spending doesn't mean it will only occur when war is imminent.

And ideally it wouldn't just be handing wads of cash to an overseas entity. But building capability internally. So increasing to 3+% doesn't just mean shopping for the best MOTS overseas platform. That additional 1% is likely to be focused on projects with lots of local content or employment that enables capability.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Cheeky sods, in my 70th decade I’m a prolific user of titanium, two shoulders and a knee. It lets you jump the queue at airport screening because the walk through lights up like a Xmas tree, just go to the front and ask to for the wand.
Sorry to be off topic but all you young Rugby front rowers, warning, it hurts after 70!
I've got titanium too, but it doesn't set off the metal detectors for some reason.

Used to be a prop too
 
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