Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
That’s an extraordinary looking stern, I haven’t seen that before, any comment Alex?
It gives a great look at the tankage arrangements....I think?
It's not really, you're used to seeing tankers and box ships with a single prop, Aotearoa has twin props, it's like the Mærsk Tripple E, twin props, unusual but becoming more common.



and an even better example of a similar vessel is the RFA Tide class, they also have a similar design.

 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
I believe it has twin pods aft and the construction pic shows the bottom half of those pods, it’s almost a cat shape underwater aft.
You can clearly see the machine spaces, the large flat area and the fuel/liquid cargo tankage sections in the pic.
No expert, just my supposition and maybe that aft cat shape protects the props from the ice?
It's not pods, if they had pods they could have done aways with the rudders. This is a photos of a Yamal Class LNG tanker, these are ice breaking tankers used on the run from the Yamal LNG terminal to China and Japan, as you can see with the pods azimuth pods, no rudder is needed. These vessels are also double acting, when breaking thick ice they move stern first.



Bloody hell. It's only six weeks since the keel-laying ceremony, from memory. Those Hyundai dockyard guys aren't wasting any time.
They would have been building hull blocks for months before the keel was laid.
 
Last edited:

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Damn, I love those Tides, wish the RCN were getting some. As for dual shafts, redundancy is a good thing. The new huge container ships may be pushing the propulsion envelope to the point single screws can't cut it anymore. Perhaps one of the Pros here can comment on this.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Bloody hell. It's only six weeks since the keel-laying ceremony, from memory. Those Hyundai dockyard guys aren't wasting any time.
Yep, they don't muck around. Big money lost of they don't build commercial hulls on time and there'll be penalty clauses in this contract too around late delivery. HHI will already have the next VL ship build for that dock lined up and ready to go so they can't afford to stuff around on this build.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Damn, I love those Tides, wish the RCN were getting some. As for dual shafts, redundancy is a good thing. The new huge container ships may be pushing the propulsion envelope to the point single screws can't cut it anymore. Perhaps one of the Pros here can comment on this.
Mærsk went with twin engines for the triple E for a number of reasons, twin smaller engines allowed them to reduce the height of the engine room enabling them to add more containers, by using two propellers also allows a better distribution of pressure, which increases the propeller efficiency more than the disadvantage of using two engines, the triple E has a design service speed of 19 knots, the E class was 25 knots, the triple E uses 37% less fuel. So it's a combination of better efficiency and greater cargo capacity that has lead to Mærsk build 31 of these monsters.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It's not pods, if they had pods they could have done aways with the rudders. This is a photos of a Yamal Class LNG tanker, these are ice breaking tankers used on the run from the Yamal LNG terminal to China and Japan, as you can see with the pods azimuth pods, no rudder is needed. These vessels are also double acting, when breaking thick ice they move stern first.





They would have been building hull blocks for months before the keel was laid.
Thanks KR. I was being literal when I said pods, not azipods but yes, it seems they will be even more pronounced “blimps” than even the tides, they start to seperate about 30 mtrs ahead of the transom.
It will be interesting to see her underwater sections when completed.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Damn, I love those Tides, wish the RCN were getting some. As for dual shafts, redundancy is a good thing. The new huge container ships may be pushing the propulsion envelope to the point single screws can't cut it anymore. Perhaps one of the Pros here can comment on this.
A ships power requirement is simply determined through the need to push a hull threw the water and the required service speed. Her displacement tonnage gives us the amount of water needed to move. Her waterline length also is a factor and seeing as its 0500 here this morning I’m not going to look it up. From memory, her max speed will be determined by 2.5 x square root of her waterline length.....provided you have the power to move her.

There must be a max size for Diesel marine engines and I think that’s around 50k shp, the merchant shipping experts on here would know that, anything bigger and steam turbines have to be used which is why most supertankers use them in a single configuration.

In the case of the big Maersk ships, I think their required service speed could possibly be a factor in why they went double diesel,(steam is horribly expensive) that is apart from the other benefits Kiwi Rob listed.
There is a huge downside for twin shaft configuration and that is maintenance. Class survey requires all machinery to be in continuous hull and machinery surveys and that requires shafts to be pulled and inspected, engines to be rebuilt at mandated intervals, anchor cables to be removed and inspected on the dock floor and other onerous schedules that get more complex and expensive as the ship ages, so; the downside to a twin outfit is that over time the machinery costs are double that of a single shaft ship.
 
Last edited:

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I think the big MAN two stroke diesels approach 100k hp. As these new super-container ships increase in size and are still expected to maintain a certain cruise speed more power is needed. I appreciate the extra costs for twins is considerable over the ship's lifetime but surely at some point there must be a limit on how large a propellor/engine combination in a single screw configuration can be for a particular hull size/design? Maximum hull speed is 1.34 x square root waterline length (feet). I vaguely recall a ton of displacement needs 5 hp for maximum hull speed but this amount is less for slower speeds.
 
Last edited:

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Back of my mind somewhere is that large propellers, even at fairly low speed, have a cavitation problem and that this leads to blade tip erosion, eventually requiring blade replacement. Plus, of course, cavitation represents use of power to achieve a nugatory outcome, and is thus an unnecessary expense. OTOH, small props also cavitate of course, although at a higher speed, but I have no idea where the balance lies. Probably explains why I am not a ship power train or propeller designer......

Assail, you're a TASO and should know more about this than me!
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Back of my mind somewhere is that large propellers, even at fairly low speed, have a cavitation problem and that this leads to blade tip erosion, eventually requiring blade replacement. Plus, of course, cavitation represents use of power to achieve a nugatory outcome, and is thus an unnecessary expense. OTOH, small props also cavitate of course, although at a higher speed, but I have no idea where the balance lies. Probably explains why I am not a ship power train or propeller designer......

Assail, you're a TASO and should know more about this than me!
Not me sir! I’m not a naval architect. I can tell you that cavitation is bad, that there are measures to reduce it but I wouldn’t know jack about propellor design apart from a few obscure facts which are probably irrelevant.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That’s an extraordinary looking stern, I haven’t seen that before, any comment Alex?
It gives a great look at the tankage arrangements....I think?
I suspect it is to protect the shaft line and the twin props in the ice class configuration noting there a more stringent hull strength requirements. In additionexposed shaft lines and seals can be a problem in ice conditions.

She is not a breaker to it should not have to deal with much ice ingestion into the prop but it pays to be safe. Some vessels are fitted with deflector blades aroudn the props as well in case ice does 'roll under' the ship.

For your reading pleasure

http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/folios/00913/docs/icenav-ch5-eng.pdf
http://rules.dnvgl.com/docs/pdf/gl/maritimerules/gl_i-1-22_e.pdf

Post Script - many modern breakers are using pods as well.
 
Last edited:

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I suspect it is to protect the shaft line and the twin props in the ice class configuration noting there a more stringent hull strength requirements. In additionexposed shaft lines and seals can be a problem in ice conditions.

She is not a breaker to it should not have to deal with much ice ingestion into the prop but it pays to be safe. Some vessels are fitted with deflector blades aroudn the props as well in case ice does 'roll under' the ship.

For your reading pleasure

http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/folios/00913/docs/icenav-ch5-eng.pdf
http://rules.dnvgl.com/docs/pdf/gl/maritimerules/gl_i-1-22_e.pdf

Post Script - many modern breakers are using pods as well.
Thanks for those links, that’s interesting info.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for those links, that’s interesting info.
The other aspect of this is docking. The overhang from the point where the hull plating rises to the stern structure this needs to be supported in dock. This can either be done by reinforincing the hull to be able to suspend the structure (look at the Hobart DDG) or providing supporting structure (which is necessary for alarge ships with heavy structure. For a hull with 'A' brackets this can mean a skeg under which blocks can be fitted. The other option is encasing both shaft lines as has been done in this case (and the triple E as shown above) so blocks can be placed under these extensions. Encasing the shaft line does impose a drag penalty but that is not a huge issue if you are not looking at very high speeds (say a sustained speed 20knots and above).

Big box boats are now operating at lower cruise speeds given fuel costs. The S class and EEE class are a case in point.
S class - Max: 24.5 knots, design sustained cruise: 21 knots
EEE Class - Max 23 knots, design sustained cruise: 18 knots
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Latest (October) Navy Today magazine arrived in post Saturday - the website is running a little behind in having them available online. Anyway quite a good read this month & a very interesting 2 page article on the purchase of the Edda Fonn (ie: 'new' Manawanui) covering it's selection & the mods planned. They are certainly talking it up but it actually looks to be a very good decision and the vessel surveyors (covering inside, outside, underwater) apparently made specific mention of it being in very good condition, equivalent to a ship only 10 years old.

She's going to get a new engine and 2 new (ie: additional) sea boats... there's an artist impression showing 1 x 'standard' RHIB & a larger RHIB type (with a much bigger davit) with cabin which must almost certainly be a tender for detached diving & REMUS deployment etc. The Hydrographic systems will be apparently much more capable than what Resolution carried. SSBA diving with wet bell thru the moon-pool, ROV thru the side hanger with it's own launch mechanism. Recompression chamber to be added.

Phase 1 mods to be done by current owners are all the new Hydro & Diving systems, sea boats davits, ROV & new engine. Phase 2 mods (post RNZN commissioning) are the military specific stuff (small arms armoury & magazines; comms; damage control). Under the latter mods is a reference to 'and any other equipment required for military operations' so perhaps that could be a couple of HMG's perhaps, maybe a TopLite sensor... but I'm just speculating on these!

Afterthought: image doesn't show the REA boats embarked on new Manawanui but rather that new larger type RHIB. Those REA boats that went into service a couple of years back.. haven't heard much about them at all... are they not fit for purpose!?!
 
Last edited:

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Latest (October) Navy Today magazine arrived in post Saturday - the website is running a little behind in having them available online. Anyway quite a good read this month & a very interesting 2 page article on the purchase of the Edda Fonn (ie: 'new' Manawanui) covering it's selection & the mods planned. They are certainly talking it up but it actually looks to be a very good decision and the vessel surveyors (covering inside, outside, underwater) apparently made specific mention of it being in very good condition, equivalent to a ship only 10 years old.

She's going to get a new engine and 2 new (ie: additional) sea boats... there's an artist impression showing 1 x 'standard' RHIB & a larger RHIB type (with a much bigger davit) with cabin which must almost certainly be a tender for detached diving & REMUS deployment etc. The Hydrographic systems will be apparently much more capable than what Resolution carried. SSBA diving with wet bell thru the moon-pool, ROV thru the side hanger with it's own launch mechanism. Recompression chamber to be added.

Phase 1 mods to be done by current owners are all the new Hydro & Diving systems, sea boats davits, ROV & new engine. Phase 2 mods (post RNZN commissioning) are the military specific stuff (small arms armoury & magazines; comms; damage control). Under the latter mods is a reference to 'and any other equipment required for military operations' so perhaps that could be a couple of HMG's perhaps, maybe a TopLite sensor... but I'm just speculating on these!

Afterthought: image doesn't show the REA boats embarked on new Manawanui but rather that new larger type RHIB. Those REA boats that went into service a couple of years back.. haven't heard much about them at all... are they not fit for purpose!?!

Since my previous post above the article has become available online, but also with 2 extra zoomable images:
The journey to find our new Dive and Hydrographic vessel
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
This acquisition is similar to Canada’s purchase of Oil and Gas Arctic vessels for conversion to light duty icebreakers. With the downturn, there are bargins to be had for nations needing quick stop-gap vessels that can be repurposed.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Latest (October) Navy Today magazine arrived in post Saturday - the website is running a little behind in having them available online. Anyway quite a good read this month & a very interesting 2 page article on the purchase of the Edda Fonn (ie: 'new' Manawanui) covering it's selection & the mods planned. They are certainly talking it up but it actually looks to be a very good decision and the vessel surveyors (covering inside, outside, underwater) apparently made specific mention of it being in very good condition, equivalent to a ship only 10 years old.

She's going to get a new engine and 2 new (ie: additional) sea boats... there's an artist impression showing 1 x 'standard' RHIB & a larger RHIB type (with a much bigger davit) with cabin which must almost certainly be a tender for detached diving & REMUS deployment etc. The Hydrographic systems will be apparently much more capable than what Resolution carried. SSBA diving with wet bell thru the moon-pool, ROV thru the side hanger with it's own launch mechanism. Recompression chamber to be added.

Phase 1 mods to be done by current owners are all the new Hydro & Diving systems, sea boats davits, ROV & new engine. Phase 2 mods (post RNZN commissioning) are the military specific stuff (small arms armoury & magazines; comms; damage control). Under the latter mods is a reference to 'and any other equipment required for military operations' so perhaps that could be a couple of HMG's perhaps, maybe a TopLite sensor... but I'm just speculating on these!

Afterthought: image doesn't show the REA boats embarked on new Manawanui but rather that new larger type RHIB. Those REA boats that went into service a couple of years back.. haven't heard much about them at all... are they not fit for purpose!?!
No doubt the new Manawanui will inherit its namesakes .50cals for point defence as fixment should be relatively straight forward as per the old vessel just require the best placement with the widest arcs and by the looks could possibly be on split levels either side looking at the unique deck layout. 2 mini typhoons would be good but I could see this particular ship keeping them old school stock mounted unless funding permits.

I think those larger RHIBs would just be a stock representation of larger craft capability such as SMB Adventure or the REAs as we don't have any of those RHIBs anyway (and neither does edda fonn currently) but either way those 2 types can just be secured to the deck on frames as with the OPVs using the crane if need be.

Perhaps those REAs are just quiet acheivers going about their buisness and more enablers for the units rather than direct stories in themselves. I have seen a couple of mentions IRT their use with the hydro and MCM teams but they mainly focus on the capability or fleet ship they deployed on rather than than equipment per se. The article I did read made mention of using both adventure, a REA as well as zodiacs but also another skiff type vessel for the inshore work but cannot seem to place the skiff type vessel.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
Having had the opportunity to be aboard a very similar vessel this month, MV Horizon Star, I can attest to the high quality and livability of these Norwegian ships.

If the images in the most recent link are accurate its nice to see the raised work boat locations which allow more of the work deck to be enclosed. Not visible in any of the drawings or photos that I have found is whether there is a stern ramp to allow the ship to back into a pier to load RO/RO cargo. This is a very nice feature that I have noted on some of the newer ships running out of Halifax. This wouldnt be a difficult upgrade and would prove beneficial in many HADR and military operations when Canterbury wasnt available.

As to a weapons fit there should be no problems mounting the reclaimed 50s but having mini typhoons installed would be in the better interests of the crew as these are stabilized and allow a higher hit potential as well as crew protection. Hopefully ballistic protection in the form of new ballistic glass can be added to the bridge area at a minimum.

As to the depiction of the large enclosed RHIB these have great advantage in your southern ocean operations. Weather protection from freezing spray when transiting is imperative to prevent injury and / or death from exposure.

I am really liking what I am seeing at this point. With a new engine being installed this will be a great long term asset. Maybe once its in service its benefits will truly be realized and a second then be acquired. Small crewing requirements and extraordinary flexibility make these ships ideal for supporting a navy of any size. I wont be surprised if this happens.
 
Top