Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

MickB said:

This seeming bias also brings to mind one of my pet hates when reading history of WW2 post Dunkirk.
When authors constantly write about the British standing alone. Perhaps some should remember the Commonwealth countries.

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Don’t know about Australia but here in Canada you would hard pressed to find anyone that would read the history even if it was properly documented. Our WW1 history is probably better understood because in many ways it was a more traumatic event for Canada.

There was a re-opening of 13 reconendations for VCs dating back to WW! here in OZ a few years back. including John Simpson Kirkpatrick of Simpson and his Donkey fame and Teddy Sheean(Gunner on the HMAS Armidale) but all were rejected. Sheean of course gave his name to the 5th Collins class Sub SSG-77.

MickB said:

Also free French, Poles etc and the various resistance groups.
All the contributions of these people rate little mention in most English histories.

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I think we can forgive British writers for concentrating on the British exploits during the war. They are hardly alone in that regard - read an Australian or New Zealand account of Gallipoli and see how many times the British or French get mentioned, despite being far more numerous and taking far more casualties. The only time he British get mentioned is when we need a convenient scape goat for incompetence, and pin it on inept British leadership.

Raven22 said:

I think we can forgive British writers for concentrating on the British exploits during the war. They are hardly alone in that regard - read an Australian or New Zealand account of Gallipoli and see how many times the British or French get mentioned, despite being far more numerous and taking far more casualties. The only time he British get mentioned is when we need a convenient scape goat for incompetence, and pin it on inept British leadership.

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Nothing wrong with British writers concentrating on British experiances but the phrase "Britain stood alone" seems completely dismissive of all other contributions almost to the point of denial that they even existed.

The reason COs of ships have been given VCs is in the wording of the last part of the regulation:

The decoration shall only be awarded for the most conspicuous gallantry, or a daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy.

The UK regulation is effectively identical; and individual bravery is not the sole determinant. It is seen as the ultimate expression of devotion to duty to sacrifice one's ship for a cause such as preservation of a convoy; and the decision to do so is the CO's alone. All the ship's company are of course involved (particularly in the self sacrifice bit) but the positive action that occasions the event is the CO's hence he gets the award; albeit posthumously.

I would certainly argue that Rankin and Sheean would have been worthy VC recipients; there is no doubt that the Australian government, and to some extent the CNS of the day, who was RN, dropped the ball The case for Waller is a bit less secure and that for Henty-Creer presuming he is the Australian on Operation Source referred to - there was another (Hudspeth) whose attack was unsuccessful and who also was not decorated - is quite a lot less clear. It would seem likely that Stoker (who it must be remembered was RN) missed out because he was a PoW and didn't make it back successfully; until after the war all Keyes etc had was the brief signal announcing he had got through.

But it is too late to revisit any of it now.

I guess we just have to take solace in the fact that members of the RAN have been awarded more George Crosses (5) than any other Australian organisation.

They could always look at the RAN holders of the George Cross as potential ship names, Goldsworthy, Gosse, Mould, Syme & Rogers. There is also Arthur Bagot, an Australian who won an Albert Medal in WWI while as a member of the RNVR. The Albert Medal was exchanged for a George Cross in 1971. Cheers.

Pusser01 said:

They could always look at the RAN holders of the George Cross as potential ship names, Goldsworthy, Gosse, Mould, Syme & Rogers. There is also Arthur Bagot, an Australian who won an Albert Medal in WWI while as a member of the RNVR. The Albert Medal was exchanged for a George Cross in 1971. Cheers.

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https://www.navy.gov.au/biography/lietenant-commander-leon-verdi-goldsworthy/
Leon Goldsworthy is actually the most highly decorated Officer in the history of the RAN with the George Cross, George Medal, Distinguished Service Cross and mentioned in Despatches, suprises me one of the Collins wasn't named after him.
The new Subs are also yet to be named, Goldsworthy Class?

Redlands18 said:

https://www.navy.gov.au/biography/lietenant-commander-leon-verdi-goldsworthy/
Leon Goldsworthy is actually the most highly decorated Officer in the history of the RAN with the George Cross, George Medal, Distinguished Service Cross and mentioned in Despatches, suprises me one of the Collins wasn't named after him.
The new Subs are also yet to be named, Goldsworthy Class?

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A very brave officer and surely deserving of a DDG, FFG or SSK class to be named after him.

ngatimozart said:

A very brave officer and surely deserving of a DDG, FFG or SSK class to be named after him.

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Yea i really like the idea of naming Escorts after Naval Personnel as many of the European navies and the USN do, just seems right somehow.

MickB said:

Nothing wrong with British writers concentrating on British experiances but the phrase "Britain stood alone" seems completely dismissive of all other contributions almost to the point of denial that they even existed.

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You're looking at it from a modern point of view. None of the Dominions had their own citizenship until after WW2, all of the people were British subjects, so Britain did stand alone when taken in that context.

rawcs said:

You're looking at it from a modern point of view. None of the Dominions had their own citizenship until after WW2, all of the people were British subjects, so Britain did stand alone when taken in that context.

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Australians citizenship started in 1948, however we didn't stop being British subjects until 1984. Today British sounds like an insular term for people of the UK (and it is natural to see it as such), as said above in the 40's it was an inclusive term for British peoples throughout the Dominions. The majority British settler dominions are now separate countries that are rapidly culturally separating from "Britishness", despite still sharing a crown and most of them still having a form of British ensign for flags.

malleboy said:

Australians citizenship started in 1948, however we didn't stop being British subjects until 1984. Today British sounds like an insular term for people of the UK (and it is natural to see it as such), as said above in the 40's it was an inclusive term for British peoples throughout the Dominions. The majority British settler dominions are now separate countries that are rapidly culturally separating from "Britishness", despite still sharing a crown and most of them still having a form of British ensign for flags.

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We were still using God Save The Queen as our national Anthem till the late 70s, remember singing it at School Assemblies.
People undersetimate just what a big deal it was when John Curtin withdrew most of the Australian Army from the ETO in 1942 to defend Australia against the wishes of the UK Government

Redlands18 said:

We were still using God Save The Queen as our national Anthem till the late 70s, remember singing it at School Assemblies.
People undersetimate just what a big deal it was when John Curtin withdrew most of the Australian Army from the ETO in 1942 to defend Australia against the wishes of the UK Government

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Oh yes and we used to have to stand up in the picture theatres and sing it before the movies stared back in the 1960s. It wasn't until later that the dirge that is God defend NZ became the official anthem. Churchill was very unimpressed Curtin and I believe had some impolite to say about him. Peter Fraser, the NZ PM, also was all for bringing the NZ division back too, but Churchill forestalled that by getting Roosevelt to agree to stationing US Marines here. So the US Marines that went Guadalcanal left from Wellington after a long period of training here. Leon Uris's novel "Battle Cry" is set in the lower North Island of NZ and in the Solomons. Good read too.

ngatimozart said:

Oh yes and we used to have to stand up in the picture theatres and sing it before the movies stared back in the 1960s. It wasn't until later that the dirge that is God defend NZ became the official anthem. Churchill was very unimpressed Curtin and I believe had some impolite to say about him. Peter Fraser, the NZ PM, also was all for bringing the NZ division back too, but Churchill forestalled that by getting Roosevelt to agree to stationing US Marines here. So the US Marines that went Guadalcanal left from Wellington after a long period of training here. Leon Uris's novel "Battle Cry" is set in the lower North Island of NZ and in the Solomons. Good read too.

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Well look at that you do learn something new everyday, I had always wondered why NZ didn’t bring back her troops from OS, just assumed that they didn’t think the threat from Japanese invasion was credabile.

ngatimozart said:

Oh yes and we used to have to stand up in the picture theatres and sing it before the movies stared back in the 1960s. It wasn't until later that the dirge that is God defend NZ became the official anthem. Churchill was very unimpressed Curtin and I believe had some impolite to say about him. Peter Fraser, the NZ PM, also was all for bringing the NZ division back too, but Churchill forestalled that by getting Roosevelt to agree to stationing US Marines here. So the US Marines that went Guadalcanal left from Wellington after a long period of training here. Leon Uris's novel "Battle Cry" is set in the lower North Island of NZ and in the Solomons. Good read too.

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The problem was however, the the Marines were raw recruits with zero experience as some of the earlier debacles in both Guadalcanal and New Guinea illustrated and the NZ Division was battle hardened and had earned a fierce reputation as a fighting force.
The Marines training was cut short and their Commander, Major General Andrew Archer Vandergrift, fought hard to delay the operation.
Vandergrift had expected he would have 6 months to train his troops in NZ and New Caledonia before the Watchtower Operation but CNO Admiral Bill Leahy’s Chief of Plans, Admiral Robert Ghormley gave him only 5 weeks! So no, not a “long period”

Churchill’s obsession with defeating Hitler first paid no respect for the defence of our two countries, a fact that made Curtain turn to the US, despite him being a keen Empire man, and caused him to despise Churchill and gave birth to a turning point in Australia’s foreign engagement. It also precipitated one of Curtains more well known quotes “I make it quite clear that Australia looks to America”.

PS I grew up knowing the two prominent verses of God Save the Queen but it wasn’t until the mid 70s when I went to watch the Wallabies regularly that I learned the words to “Advance Oz fair”

ASSAIL said:

The problem was however, the the Marines were raw recruits with zero experience as some of the earlier debacles in both Guadalcanal and New Guinea illustrated and the NZ Division was battle hardened and had earned a fierce reputation as a fighting force.
The Marines training was cut short and their Commander, Major General Andrew Archer Vandergrift, fought hard to delay the operation.
Vandergrift had expected he would have 6 months to train his troops in NZ and New Caledonia before the Watchtower Operation but CNO Admiral Bill Leahy’s Chief of Plans, Admiral Robert Ghormley gave him only 5 weeks! So no, not a “long period”

Churchill’s obsession with defeating Hitler first paid no respect for the defence of our two countries, a fact that made Curtain turn to the US, despite him being a keen Empire man, and caused him to despise Churchill and gave birth to a turning point in Australia’s foreign engagement. It gave birth to Curtains more well known quotes “I make it quite clear that Australia looks to America”.

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Yes and unfortunately Fraser didn't follow suit, hence NZ hanging onto the UK's coat tails right into the 1970s still thinking of it as "home". I think in part is where NZ's historical antipathy towards defence comes from because the"mother" country was always there in the form of Pax Britannia and the RN.

Joe hockey has put up a clip on Twitter about Aus and US mateship. But at the start of it shows HMAS Hobart alongside a Burke. Till now I didn't realise how big the Burke's are? They make the Hobart's look like a frigate.

Burkes do look chubby.

There is a fair bit going on between the two. With the Hobarts having the radar higher, the bridge is lower, the bow is different. They are a smaller ship, but the radar is higher. Burkes carry their radar very low.

I wonder how the Hunter class would look. Again the radar would be high, but they are a girthier ship.

Churchill was an ass. He had all the allies wrapped up in his world. Curtins stand was very ballsy, US was confused. Army and Navy were divided on strategy, Roosevelt was unimpressed, thought it sounded desperate and still wanted Britain first and only. US Generals and admirals were at each other. Churchill then had the further gaul to try to countermand Curtin and burning Australian sovereignty and further leaving us to the wolves. The US probably would have been happier to coast in at the tail end like in WW1, fewer losses and see how things work out. Open war on two fronts would mean the US was all in. Things escalated quickly.

How anyone could honestly believe in Pax Britainia after that cluster is beyond me. Britain is a European nation. Then in the 60's they burned the colonies again when they joined the EEC and cut us out and barely made any effort to consider their former wards.

weegee said:

Joe hockey has put up a clip on Twitter about Aus and US mateship. But at the start of it shows HMAS Hobart alongside a Burke. Till now I didn't realise how big the Burke's are? They make the Hobart's look like a frigate.

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Because they are frigates

I've been on about a dozen Burkes and I've seen F-100's in the wild, the size difference is even more apparent from other angles.

@StingrayOZ ....could be worse, Canada's wartime PM MacKenzie King spent time trying to talk to the dead (real dead people, not MPs from his party).