Royal New Zealand Air Force

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
NZ to acquire four P-8A Poseidons. Package includes full simulators for pilots, crew and techies and the decision was made last week.
Watch live: Acting PM Winston Peters holds his post-Cabinet press conference

P-8As will be delivered 2023. 5 Sqn to move to Ohakea. 50% of costs will be infrastructure related.

:):):)
Well so much for the kumara vine (rumour mill) in regards to no simulator, modern training systems are now part and parcel of any modern day acquisition for defence hand in hand with everything else that is built into the contract. Well done I say to NZDF, MoD and the Minister for getting this critical purchase signed off. 2023 is not alot of time to build infrastructure, begin the process of transition, training & begin the crawl walk run process for 5 Sqn. I don hope RNZAF museum will be able to keep one of the decommission birds for its display.

CD
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Ron Marks news release on the P-8A purchase.

New Zealand to buy four P-8A Poseidon Maritime Patrol Aircraft
Defence
The coalition Government has agreed to purchase four Boeing P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft from the United States Government.

The four aircraft will replace the aging six P-3K2 Orion maritime patrol aircraft that have been operated by the Royal New Zealand Air Force since the 1960s. The current Orion fleet will reach the end of their expected operational life in 2025.

“The purchase ensures the Defence Force can continue to deliver the country’s maritime surveillance, resource protection, humanitarian and disaster response around New Zealand and across the South Pacific,” says Ron Mark.

“This decision strengthens the coalition Government’s Pacific Reset by providing a maritime patrol capability with the significant range and endurance needed to assist our partners in the region.

“The purchase enables New Zealand to continue to deploy in a wide range of airborne maritime situations independently, and when required, work effectively with partners including Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States, which all operate, or will operate, the aircraft,” says Ron Mark.

The role of maritime patrol aircraft includes:

  • Supporting maritime surveillance, humanitarian aid and disaster response, and resource protection around NZ and in the South Pacific;
  • Contributing to the international rules based order through participation in global peace and security operations;
  • Search and rescue in New Zealand’s region, which stretches from the South Pole almost to the Equator and covers 1/11th of the earth’s surface;
  • Environmental and marine resource monitoring.
“One example of the requirement for a fully capable maritime patrol aircraft is simply the number of lives that can be saved,” Mr Mark said.

“In the last seven years of search and rescue operations in our region, Orion maritime patrols have contributed to saving 119 lives.

“Other tasks the Orions have undertaken recently have included participation in international operations to counter piracy and illicit smuggling off the Horn of Africa, surveillance of the volcano in Vanuatu, assessing damage from Cyclones Winston and Gita in the Pacific, surveillance of critical infrastructure after the Kaikoura earthquake, and fisheries monitoring.

“Maintaining a maritime patrol capability is essential for New Zealand’s national security, and for our ability to contribute to global security efforts,” says Ron Mark.

The new P-8As, training systems, infrastructure and introduction into service costs will total $2.346 billion. They will be delivered and begin operations from 2023.

The capital cost will be spread over a number of financial years out to 2025/26. This is an investment decision that has fallen on this Government to make, but will be spread over the medium term and will deliver for New Zealand for many decades to come. The P-8A was the most cost-effective maritime patrol aircraft option available.

No. 5 Squadron, which currently operates the Orions, will shift from Whenuapai to Ohakea air force base to operate the P-8As.

The Government will also consider options for a complementary maritime surveillance capability during the forthcoming Defence Capability Plan review, due to be completed by the end of 2018.

“The complementary capability will consider smaller manned aircraft, remotely piloted aircraft systems (RPAS) or satellites, for additional maritime surveillance tasks within New Zealand’s Exclusive Economic Zone and near region. This will free up the new P-8A fleet to fly more missions, in the South Pacific and further afield,” says Ron Mark.

ENDS.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
NZ to acquire four P-8A Poseidons. Package includes full simulators for pilots, crew and techies and the decision was made last week.
Watch live: Acting PM Winston Peters holds his post-Cabinet press conference

P-8As will be delivered 2023. 5 Sqn to move to Ohakea. 50% of costs will be infrastructure related.

:):):)
Thanks for the link, some interesting tidbits from the DefMin afterwards when asked by the press:

*Mention of a complementary capability to also be sought (eg for local EEZ patrolling).

*As to the P-8 acquisition cost, approx 50% will be for infrastructure development and relocating 5 Squadron from Whenuapai to Ohakea air base. Approx 50% for aircraft related costs (the aircraft themselves, training and "simulators" - for air crew, maintainers, operators etc).

* Approx 60% of the cost goes to "what is fitted inside".

*P-8 only option that delivers all capabilities.

*P-8 best option (deal) .... I'm sure the DefMin said it wasn't necessarily the "dearest" deal (???).

*Also best deal because NZG leverages approx "$9bn" of US research investment - NZG then only needs to buy into upgrades (rather than reinvent the wheel). Leverages a worldwide fleet of 150 aircraft.

*"Interoperable crewing" i.e. seeing as used by Australia, US, UK, South Korea etc, crew members on secondment could slot in etc.

Well done to NZ First, DefMin Ron Mark and Acting PM Peters for supporting NZDF investment for generations to come and ensuring NZ remains interoperable with its friends and allies!
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
NZ to acquire four P-8A Poseidons. Package includes full simulators for pilots, crew and techies and the decision was made last week.
Watch live: Acting PM Winston Peters holds his post-Cabinet press conference

P-8As will be delivered 2023. 5 Sqn to move to Ohakea. 50% of costs will be infrastructure related.

:):):)
Good stuff, the balls finally rolling on one of the major projects and is at least underway. One down...although I'm still holding out hope for abit more depth to be added but this is definately a solid start for now. Exciting times ahead for RNZAF, NZDF and NZ.

Well just read the post stating they are actively looking at complimentary options, and that answers that, double good stuff. Nice to see those no sim rumours where just that as well.
 
Last edited:

Xthenaki

Active Member
Ron Marks news release on the P-8A purchase.

New Zealand to buy four P-8A Poseidon Maritime Patrol Aircraft
Defence
The coalition Government has agreed to purchase four Boeing P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft from the United States Government.

The four aircraft will replace the aging six P-3K2 Orion maritime patrol aircraft that have been operated by the Royal New Zealand Air Force since the 1960s. The current Orion fleet will reach the end of their expected operational life in 2025.

“The purchase ensures the Defence Force can continue to deliver the country’s maritime surveillance, resource protection, humanitarian and disaster response around New Zealand and across the South Pacific,” says Ron Mark.

“This decision strengthens the coalition Government’s Pacific Reset by providing a maritime patrol capability with the significant range and endurance needed to assist our partners in the region.

“The purchase enables New Zealand to continue to deploy in a wide range of airborne maritime situations independently, and when required, work effectively with partners including Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States, which all operate, or will operate, the aircraft,” says Ron Mark.

The role of maritime patrol aircraft includes:

  • Supporting maritime surveillance, humanitarian aid and disaster response, and resource protection around NZ and in the South Pacific;
  • Contributing to the international rules based order through participation in global peace and security operations;
  • Search and rescue in New Zealand’s region, which stretches from the South Pole almost to the Equator and covers 1/11th of the earth’s surface;
  • Environmental and marine resource monitoring.
“One example of the requirement for a fully capable maritime patrol aircraft is simply the number of lives that can be saved,” Mr Mark said.

“In the last seven years of search and rescue operations in our region, Orion maritime patrols have contributed to saving 119 lives.

“Other tasks the Orions have undertaken recently have included participation in international operations to counter piracy and illicit smuggling off the Horn of Africa, surveillance of the volcano in Vanuatu, assessing damage from Cyclones Winston and Gita in the Pacific, surveillance of critical infrastructure after the Kaikoura earthquake, and fisheries monitoring.

“Maintaining a maritime patrol capability is essential for New Zealand’s national security, and for our ability to contribute to global security efforts,” says Ron Mark.

The new P-8As, training systems, infrastructure and introduction into service costs will total $2.346 billion. They will be delivered and begin operations from 2023.

The capital cost will be spread over a number of financial years out to 2025/26. This is an investment decision that has fallen on this Government to make, but will be spread over the medium term and will deliver for New Zealand for many decades to come. The P-8A was the most cost-effective maritime patrol aircraft option available.

No. 5 Squadron, which currently operates the Orions, will shift from Whenuapai to Ohakea air force base to operate the P-8As.

The Government will also consider options for a complementary maritime surveillance capability during the forthcoming Defence Capability Plan review, due to be completed by the end of 2018.

“The complementary capability will consider smaller manned aircraft, remotely piloted aircraft systems (RPAS) or satellites, for additional maritime surveillance tasks within New Zealand’s Exclusive Economic Zone and near region. This will free up the new P-8A fleet to fly more missions, in the South Pacific and further afield,” says Ron Mark.

ENDS.
The Defence Capability Plan review 2018 is what we are waiting for and one of its contents will be what they have in mind for "the complementary capability"
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
*Also best deal because NZG leverages approx "$9bn" of US research investment - NZG then only needs to buy into upgrades (rather than reinvent the wheel). Leverages a worldwide fleet of 150 aircraft.

*"Interoperable crewing" i.e. seeing as used by Australia, US, UK, South Korea etc, crew members on secondment could slot in etc.

Well done to NZ First, DefMin Ron Mark and Acting PM Peters for supporting NZDF investment
By the time we recieve ours we will also leverage off all the new TTPs, testing and adjusting and bug ironing of those nations as well so hopefully provide for a smoother transition.

5 Sqn hosted brit crews ever since the demise of their nimrods to keep their skillsets current so no doubt they will return the favour along with our Australian brethren to embed a few pilots, crew and maintainers to gain/glean exposure.

I must admit I was abit sceptical about RM, WP and this Labour first situation but they've at least stumped up when required and not scuttled so I'll give them that.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
By the time we recieve ours we will also leverage off all the new TTPs, testing and adjusting and bug ironing of those nations as well so hopefully provide for a smoother transition.

5 Sqn hosted brit crews ever since the demise of their nimrods to keep their skillsets current so no doubt they will return the favour along with our Australian brethren to embed a few pilots, crew and maintainers to gain/glean exposure.

I must admit I was abit sceptical about RM, WP and this Labour first situation but they've at least stumped up when required and not scuttled so I'll give them that.
I was hoping Ron Mark was going to spring a surprise and say the NZG would sign off on 5 aircraft, instead of 4 (seeing the P-8 must be "only" approx ~NZ$250m each(?), and seeing as NZF had previously said (when they were in Opposition) that 4 wasn't enough ... I wonder whether, like the Australians, an additional aircraft could be procured in the near future? Let's hope the planned infrastructure development for Ohakea could allow for some potential expansion!

I heard the Defmin say on Radio NZ Checkpoint that the main contenders for FASC were the P-8, P-1 and the Sea Hercules (which was ruled out because it only exists on paper - perhaps LM are missing an opportunity here by not producing a prototype aircraft considering there are plenty of MPA operators out there not necessarily requiring a full-on ASW/ISR networked asset!
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
NZ to acquire four P-8A Poseidons. Package includes full simulators for pilots, crew and techies and the decision was made last week.
Watch live: Acting PM Winston Peters holds his post-Cabinet press conference

P-8As will be delivered 2023. 5 Sqn to move to Ohakea. 50% of costs will be infrastructure related.

:):):)

Great news... RNZAF's core combat capability for the forseeable future! Excellent news that the need for a 'complimentary' capability is understood at a Govt level. Ngati - I'm not doubting your statement about the sims... but I'm naturally a pessimist when it comes to NZ defence purchases until I see it in official public releases. Do we categorically know that 'training systems' are to include sims?

At some point the discussion will move to what weapons systems are planned... this is probably already far advanced but I doubt we'll go the full-hog!

<edit> ok sorry Ngati... did it all arse-about-face, sorry mate! Watched the video after I posted & the magic word 'simulator' came from the horses mouth. My shout! ;)
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
I was hoping Ron Mark was going to spring a surprise and say the NZG would sign off on 5 aircraft, instead of 4 (seeing the P-8 must be "only" approx ~NZ$250m each(?), and seeing as NZF had previously said (when they were in Opposition) that 4 wasn't enough ... I wonder whether, like the Australians, an additional aircraft could be procured in the near future? Let's hope the planned infrastructure development for Ohakea could allow for some potential expansion!

I heard the Defmin say on Radio NZ Checkpoint that the main contenders for FASC were the P-8, P-1 and the Sea Hercules (which was ruled out because it only exists on paper - perhaps LM are missing an opportunity here by not producing a prototype aircraft considering there are plenty of MPA operators out there not necessarily requiring a full-on ASW/ISR networked asset!
No doubt options will be available (for a period at least) now that we have our foot in the door but NZ does not have a good history of excersising options going off the ANZACs, F16s, C130js etc.

I think the announced complimentary option will be a lesser platform not another P8 but hopefully still a decent capability in it's own right.

Interesting you mention the sea herc as perhaps could still have synergies then with the air mobility project depending on what path they take in that regard but as you say, a paper plane with not even a prototype so still a gamble for that particular direction regardless of the well proven base model. An option nonetheless.
 

Hone C

Active Member
I think the announced complimentary option will be a lesser platform not another P8 but hopefully still a decent capability in it's own right.
Not another P-8 but smaller aircraft, UAV or satellite. I suppose the gold plated option would be MQ-4C Triton but more realistically looking at another couple King Air 350s. We'llhave to be patient and wait for the review to come out.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
No doubt options will be available (for a period at least) now that we have our foot in the door but NZ does not have a good history of excersising options going off the ANZACs, F16s, C130js etc.

I think the announced complimentary option will be a lesser platform not another P8 but hopefully still a decent capability in it's own right.

Interesting you mention the sea herc as perhaps could still have synergies then with the air mobility project depending on what path they take in that regard but as you say, a paper plane with not even a prototype so still a gamble for that particular direction regardless of the well proven base model. An option nonetheless.
Yes very unlikely options will be even considered as they have already stated, as you point out, a need for a 'complimentary' platform.

The KA350 lease till 2025 fits perfectly with this in that they give the NZDF/RNZAF an opportunity to operate & understand what a light MPA/SAR platform offers & how it could be used. That doesn't mean it will become that 'complimentary' platform in 2025 once the P8 takes over - they are obviously also looking at remote systems as well. Although as a whole the NZDF does seem, to me, to be a little slow adopting these systems, they are now mature platforms in many allied forces.

Anyway for now it's status quo with the dear-old P3... I bet $$$ that the nominal P3 fleet drops to 4 by about 2022.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Nope Speights is what I was brought up on. Speights Foveaux oysters and whitebait. Me being a good southern joker and all.
Yeah well at the risk of dragging us all off topic, I have downed much Speights in my time as the other half is a Central Otago gal so we're down there regularly, but to fair my tastes have 'evolved'!

I feel a certain 'buzz' on this (& other ;)) forums... damn nice for a bunch of like minded kiwis to have something to be excited about for a change! I bet there's some big tabs being run up by 5 Sqn this week!

When I was travelling around WW1 battlefields in Sept 2016 I spent 3 days at a French B&B and the only other guest was an RAF Sgt. & his wife. He'd spent many years in Nimrods & time over Afghanistan etc. They had seriously considered moving to NZ to join 5 Sqn - then he worked out the cost of living vs RNZAF salary. So while he was digesting that sobering news RAF shoulder tapped him to go in on one of the first RAF P8 courses so his destiny was set... he was pretty damned excited!

Right, now for the FAMC thread....!
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
A B767 would have been better in hindsight.

A PM delegation is the most common usage in the VIP role in which officials from the DPM&C, MFAT staff including trade officials, invited industry guests from NZTE, members of the Press Gallery and DPS security. The other use is Veteran Affairs flights to overseas commemorations which are full pax capacity affairs with many missing out.

These trips are planned months ahead and refuelling stops are dovetailed into diplomatic activities where for example the PM will use those precious hours to meet with a fellow leader. For example a set down in the Pacific to get brief but important facetime with an Island leader for an hour or two.

Senior Officials and Govt staff off to conferences or smaller delegations with a Minister are booked by the Parliamentary Travel Office primarily on Air NZ. Where they sit on the plane is where they are at with the pecking order.
Agreed that a B767 would have made a better selection, though I am not certain the actual aircraft capabilities were the primary concern. I suspect price play a large role in what was selected, and in hindsight it seems to be another case of being unwilling to do a proper spend on a capability. Looking at info from an NZ Auditor-General report in 2008 about the B757 acquisition and modification programme, it seems the two aircraft were purchased for NZD$108.2 mil. back in 2003, which looks like it would have worked out to ~USD$30 mil. per B757 at the time. As a matter of interest, I will see what I can find out about the average price for other airliners at the time.

The B757 line closed about 19 months after NZ purchased the two 10 year-old B757's and as far as I can tell it had been known for some time that Boeing was having trouble getting orders for the B757 design and therefore the line might/would close soon. It is worth noting though that the B727's which the B757's replaced had also been purchased as 2nd hand aircraft manufactured in 1968 and purchased by NZ from Boeing in 1981 (for NZD$15 mil.)

In terms of the new announcement, the P-8A Poseidon purchase for the RNZAF is IMO very welcome news and a step in the right direction to enable the NZDF to meet the recently released strategic defence policy statement. The only news which would have been better IMO would have been if the announcement was that five or six Poseidons were ordered instead of four. I do suspect that the initial armament purchased will be minimal, if any. However, that should not be a significant issue provided that NZ does stay in step with the incremental upgrade programme that the US is running for the Poseidon. This should enable any Kiwi Poseidons to be loaded with the appropriate munitions for US or Australian stocks if needed, or permit an emergency purchase by NZ, since the aircraft and it's mission systems should be able to use the munitions. This would be in contrast to the situation with the current P-3K2 Orions, which did not have an updating wiring harness and databus installed in the wings when the aircraft was last being re-winged. The impact of that "cost-saving measure" was that as a practical matter, the wing hardpoints on the Kiwi Orions could not launch standoff PGM's or Harpoon AShM, since the Orion could not relay any targeting data to the munitions prior to launch. Theoretically a Harpoon could have been launched, and then used it's own on-board seeker to locate a ship target, but the Orion would not be able to 'tell' the Harpoon which ship to strike, or any other information.

It will be interesting to see if the complimentary capability to the FASC does get stood up, as well as what it might turn out to be.

Now it looks like we will need to wait and see what the FAMC decision is, or what the decisions will be since I recall Ron Mark having issue with the B757's and how they are being used.
 

htbrst

Active Member
Great news... RNZAF's core combat capability for the forseeable future! Excellent news that the need for a 'complimentary' capability is understood at a Govt level. Ngati - I'm not doubting your statement about the sims... but I'm naturally a pessimist when it comes to NZ defence purchases until I see it in official public releases. Do we categorically know that 'training systems' are to include sims?
From the MOD Factsheet the NZ Herald (?) has put online: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4585523/MOD-P-8A-Poseidon-Factsheet.pdf

Crews will primarily train to operate the Poseidon in simulators. 70% of crew training is delivered in flight deck and mission system simulators, reducing costs and enabling better training outcomes and allowing the aircraft to provide more direct outputs rather than consuming hours for training.
Still doesnt specifically say they are getting them as such I guess but gives an idea of what they are expecting to use them for
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
....However, that should not be a significant issue provided that NZ does stay in step with the incremental upgrade programme that the US is running for the Poseidon. This should enable any Kiwi Poseidons to be loaded with the appropriate munitions for US or Australian stocks if needed, or permit an emergency purchase by NZ, since the aircraft and it's mission systems should be able to use the munitions......
Re P8: True and we do need to ensure we do keep inn step. However for RNZAF to use any weapon systems they need to be proficient in it's use so it really has to be part of the arsenal & training syllabus from the get-go. Most likely by the time an emergency purchase is required it's probably already too late!

I am a fan of the B757 but yes it was a compromise, I suspect mostly limited by budget - it was likely an easy one to get over the goal line to replace the B727 'like for like'.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
In relation to potential P-8 weapon systems, the CDF, when interviewed by Newshub tonight said they "are keeping their options open, for a full range spectrum of military operations".

Considering that it's a Labour-NZF coalition govt that have made the bold steps of committing to the purchase of P-8's today, publicly criticised both China and Russian last Friday for undermining the "international rules-based order" (which has never happened before under any NZ govt in the last 20-30 years or so), are calling for greater US and Australian presence in the South Pacific, are investing in a new multi-billion dollar "Pacific Reset" diplomatic and foreign aid programme .... I doubt the govt will unnecessarily compromise any P-8 weapon systems. After all why compromise a quarter-of-a-billion dollar asset with "dumb" weapons that would put the aircraft in harms way etc?

Even the media are reporting the P-8's will re-locate to Ohakea so they can be "weaponised"! :D
 
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