Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Actually CEC is not yet installed on the DDG's, it was only announced last December that development was completed and it is now ready to be installed, see link below:

AWDs to receive US CEC system in coming months - Defence Connect

Some quotes from the article:

"This is an incredibly important event for Australia because it means that this is the first international release of the capability outside of the United States," Ward said.

"This is a profound statement by the US Navy of the importance of the Australian-United States relationship.

"I am delighted that, as combat system integrator of the Air Warfare Destroyer, Raytheon Australia will play a significant role in the installation, activation and test of this equipment on the first two Air Warfare Destroyers over the coming months. Using the talents of our Sydney workforce we will carry out this work on HMAS Hobart at Garden Island, while our large combat system workforce in Adelaide is undertaking work on the second AWD, Brisbane."

The one interesting point from the article (and other articles announcing CEC for the DDGs), is that at this stage they have only mentioned two systems, eg for Hobart and Brisbane, but not for Sydney as yet (you would assume it would end up on all three ships in the class?).

And hopefully the nine new FFGs also eventually end up with CEC too.
I read that item but because the antennae are fitted and plain to see I had assumed that the hardware was in and all the activity now would be set to work. I assumed that the journo had it wrong.
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
We don’t have detailed information of the ship but the evolved design is over 70% common with the Hobart but has increased growth margins over the Hobart and F105. If 25% change allows for some configuration changes meaning the vessel may have variations in tank arrangements, more efficient prime movers (noting improvements can be seen over different models of the same unit) or improved energy efficiency (not to be sneezed at as any reduction is electrical load will translate into range ..... even thinks like LED lighting can have a significant impact).

In short there are a range of changes that could have been made that would increase range
It's reputed the RCN wants a range "equal to or better than the current City (Halifax) class", which would be 7000 nm (or better). I really like the design Navantia put forward for the CSC, but short of a major upgrade of the propulsion system, which I suppose is possible, AND significant extra capacity for fuel, I don't see how they can meet this requirement.
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
It's reputed the RCN wants a range "equal to or better than the current City (Halifax) class", which would be 7000 nm (or better). I really like the design Navantia put forward for the CSC, but short of a major upgrade of the propulsion system, which I suppose is possible, AND significant extra capacity for fuel, I don't see how they can meet this requirement.
Sorry, I realize this forum is dedicated to Australian matters, but given our two countries are running concurrent competitions for very similar vessels, I find it interesting and informative to post here as the replies I get seem very informed.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Do you have a reference for that ? I have not heard of that before ?

Also the AWD's have different propulsion to their Spanish Friends. While both use LM-2500 IIRC the Hobarts use a different model developing more HP, and we have different diesel engines as well as a necessity of the higher displacement.

So extra fuel bunkerage makes sense, just have not seen it referenced before, or have forgotten about it :)

Cheers
Spoz is right on the conversion of ballast tanks. On the propulsion side of things the Hobart's are the same as the F105.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
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Thanks Volk - beat me to it!

On CEC, the hardware is installed but must be set to work and trialled.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks Volk - beat me to it!

On CEC, the hardware is installed but must be set to work and trialled.
And will that require the second and third ships to go Stateside or will they be able to do it here once Hobart is up and running (with CEC).
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
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aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Spoz is right on the conversion of ballast tanks. On the propulsion side of things the Hobart's are the same as the F105.
Found the info on the tanks, also not correct on propulsion, the Hobart's have more powerful and fuel efficient diesel engines

Air Warfare Destroyer Alliance - The Project - The Hobart Class - Differences from the F100 Class

And I have seen reference to the LM2500 also being different, which also had the info on the diesel engines too, will list if I find the reference again

Cheers
 

hairyman

Active Member
Thank you for the replies gentlemen. I am a little bit wiser about the CEC and how it works. I suppose it could be fitted to most of our surface ships of a decent size.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
On CEC, the hardware is installed but must be set to work and trialled.
I'm a bit confused here, is CEC currently fitted (as of 'today') to the DDGs or not? You are suggesting it is.

But according to the press release from Raytheon not yet, see below:

Raytheon News Release Archive

The relevant paragraph from Raytheon says:

"The equipment - certified hardware and software - will transfer to Australia for installation on HMAS Hobart (DDG-39), and NUSHIP Brisbane (DDG-41) over the coming months, followed by an extensive integration, test and evaluation period. Raytheon will actively support CEC system integration and testing, including scheduled sea trials, similar to support provided for the U.S. Navy fleet."

Not trying to split hairs (yes the RAN will have CEC on the DDGs), but the way the Raytheon press release from mid December 2017 reads, is that CEC will be installed 'over the coming months'.


The other interesting point to note, is that according to Raytheon, Australia is the 'first' international installation of CEC:

TEWKSBURY, Mass., (Dec. 13, 2017) – Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN) has completed design, development and testing of its Cooperative Engagement Capability system, which will be certified by the U.S. Navy for the system’s first international installation. Onboard the Royal Australian Navy’s HMAS Hobart, CEC will expand the ship’s battlespace awareness by sharing sensor data among a network of other Australian and allied CEC-equipped ships and aircraft

I would have assumed (yes, never assume!) that a number of other US partners nations who operate AEGIS ships, such as Japan, South Korea, Spain, would also have their ships equipped with CEC, possibly not??
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Thank you for the replies gentlemen. I am a little bit wiser about the CEC and how it works. I suppose it could be fitted to most of our surface ships of a decent size.
Ideally it will also be fitted to the Sea5000 frigates. Having a dozen ships with Aegis/CEC will give us quite a punch for our size. It would also fit in nicely with what we are doing with our aviation assets in linking them all togethor creating a kill web, doing that as much as possible with the navy and army should be of the highest priority.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Australian Destroyer Will be First Foreign Warship to Install Raytheon's Cooperative Engagement Capability - USNI

NewsIt does appear that the RAN is the first international customer for CEC. This does surprise me as the other Aegis international customers have been around much longer.
This USNI link is only one month old.

John, As far as whether the hardware is already fitted or not and although the articles you have referred, and this link state otherwise, the work required to retrofit would be quite difficult considering its size and complexity. I know the antennae are there, they can be seen so it's unlikely that the hardware would have been transferred piecemeal.
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
Thanks everyone with your replies. Much appreciated.

If I may, I'd like talk about upgrading the Canberra Class LHD's.

Recently I came across an article that the Italians had started work on their newest Helicopter/F-35b/amphibious assault ship, in July 2017

Fincantieri Starts Working on Italian Navy Future Landing Helicopter Dock LHD

This beauty comes highly spec'd, with features more commonly seen on frigates, like 3 x 76mm oto malera guns, decoys, advanced sensors, and VLS cells for Anti Air missiles.

Now, I know the RAN will do nothing to the Canberra's, but my thought ran like this- Recenlty Japan and South Korea announced they will convert their LHD's to full aircraft carriers, to fly F-35B's from.

If the RAN converts the Canberra's- fantastic!

But if they don't, then how about doing a bit of renovation work, giving it armament similar to the Italian LHD?

They have plenty of space for it, at least from what my amateur eyes can see.

If nothing else, place several 40mm guns on. Militias can get hold of .50 cal machine guns, and even 25mm guns reasonably easily. It's embarrassing to think that a huge ship like a LHD could theoretically be run off by a few 10m RHIB with a 25 mm guns. This couldn't possibly happen! you think...it would have a frigate escort. Yes, well....that ANZAC's only got 1 x 5 inch gun. If you have several RHIB's zipping around, 3-4km from the RAN vessels, you might miss a lot. Meanwhile, the bad guys are straffing you. But the helicopters can take off and attack from the air, you say. Well, it takes a bit of time to get them up in the air, doesn't it? And the bad guys can shoot at them while they are on the deck.

So if not 76mm guns, which need deck penetration, at least some 40mm guns, which are easier to install as they don't.

I imagine this topic has been discussed before, in some fashion. But the Italians are actually building a LHD/light carrier which has most of the features that people have put on a wish list in the past.

What do you think? Any chance the RAN will do anything substantial with the Canberra's ? (I know they will put a couple of phalnyx's on this year, not really impressed)
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Canberra Classs LHD already has 4x stabilised 25mm guns fitted with Toplite EO/IR directors. These already, provide a far greater firepower capability than any RHIB with a mounted gun, bouncing wildly around in the ocean.

A design is apparently being finalised to mount 3x Phalanx 20mm CIWS on them either in addition to, or more likely in place of some of the existing 25mm guns.

If more firepower were required the existing mounts can handle 30mm guns or additionally have Spike missiles integrated onto the existing mount.

These also have the benefit of no deck penetration, which the 76mm gun idea, does not...

These options provide vastly more firepower than any non-stabilised gun on a speedboat type threat and then as you’ve already identified the LHD’s won’t be going anywhere without an AWD, an ANZAC frigate or a future frigate, none of which will have the slightest difficulty with a gun on a speedboat...
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks everyone with your replies. Much appreciated.

If I may, I'd like talk about upgrading the Canberra Class LHD's.

Recently I came across an article that the Italians had started work on their newest Helicopter/F-35b/amphibious assault ship, in July 2017

Fincantieri Starts Working on Italian Navy Future Landing Helicopter Dock LHD

This beauty comes highly spec'd, with features more commonly seen on frigates, like 3 x 76mm oto malera guns, decoys, advanced sensors, and VLS cells for Anti Air missiles.

Now, I know the RAN will do nothing to the Canberra's, but my thought ran like this- Recenlty Japan and South Korea announced they will convert their LHD's to full aircraft carriers, to fly F-35B's from.

If the RAN converts the Canberra's- fantastic!

But if they don't, then how about doing a bit of renovation work, giving it armament similar to the Italian LHD?

They have plenty of space for it, at least from what my amateur eyes can see.

If nothing else, place several 40mm guns on. Militias can get hold of .50 cal machine guns, and even 25mm guns reasonably easily. It's embarrassing to think that a huge ship like a LHD could theoretically be run off by a few 10m RHIB with a 25 mm guns. This couldn't possibly happen! you think...it would have a frigate escort. Yes, well....that ANZAC's only got 1 x 5 inch gun. If you have several RHIB's zipping around, 3-4km from the RAN vessels, you might miss a lot. Meanwhile, the bad guys are straffing you. But the helicopters can take off and attack from the air, you say. Well, it takes a bit of time to get them up in the air, doesn't it? And the bad guys can shoot at them while they are on the deck.

So if not 76mm guns, which need deck penetration, at least some 40mm guns, which are easier to install as they don't.

I imagine this topic has been discussed before, in some fashion. But the Italians are actually building a LHD/light carrier which has most of the features that people have put on a wish list in the past.

What do you think? Any chance the RAN will do anything substantial with the Canberra's ? (I know they will put a couple of phalnyx's on this year, not really impressed)
This topic has been thrashed to death on here so I suggest that you read back through the thread. Long story short there are technical, logistical etc., reasons why this would not occur.
 
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