Australian Army Discussions and Updates

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Strategic shipbuilding in my view is more than designing the ships, how do they get the skills for repair refit if we don't build them let alone upgrade such as the successful ASMD up grade. Bushmaster comes to mind even tho it was pork barrelling by placing it in Bendigo, low number builds don't help number crunching for projects like Land 400, nut I understand the rational behind reasons.
How do we maintain the repair and upgrade capabilities for the 90% plus of products our Defence force uses, yet which we import wholly and don’t even do local assembly for? How do we repair, refit and upgrade KC-30A’s which were built wholly in Europe? Or M1A1’s which were built entirely in the USA and so forth?

Discussion on domestic assembly (which is what we do) and local repair and upgrade of defence platforms are largely separate topics in my opinion.
 

PeterM

Active Member
There has been a fair bit of focus on Land 400 Phase 1 understandably.

I am curious about Land 400 Phase 3 Manoeuvre Support Vehicle. My understanding is that first pass approval is expected in early 2018.

One obvious option is a derivative of the IFV selected for Land 400 Phase 2. However, this is going to be a sizeable vehicle, particularly if it has 8 dismounts as expected. Even something like a smaller version of Lynx KF31 (with 6 dismounts) isn't exactly small at around 38t . Would the size of the vehicle hinder it's ability as a Manoever Support Vehicle?

I am curious whether something along the lines of the British Terrier armoured digger might be a better option. I know the British production run has recently finished, but would a small local build based off the British design feasible?

My understanding is that a more substantial vehicle such as the Kodiak AEV is more in line with Land 8160 Phase 1 (which I believe is scheduled for first pass approval in early 2018).
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
How do we maintain the repair and upgrade capabilities for the 90% plus of products our Defence force uses, yet which we import wholly and don’t even do local assembly for? How do we repair, refit and upgrade KC-30A’s which were built wholly in Europe? Or M1A1’s which were built entirely in the USA and so forth?

Discussion on domestic assembly (which is what we do) and local repair and upgrade of defence platforms are largely separate topics in my opinion.
Interesting that you mention the M-1 as to reduce costs and increase availably Australian facilities are being established to refurbish their turbines. There are continuous efforts throughout defence to reduce costs and increase availability for multiple capabilities, not by outsourcing overseas but by bringing support back in country and even back into the ADF. Just have a look at what we have instead of DMO now, instead of a contract management organisation it is an engineering, project management and governance organisation with skin in the game at every level. Look at how the SPOs with the most private contractor involvement and control are being pulled back into the fold with direct customer oversight and better defined accountability, look at the investment in growing enough skilled technical people to do the role that we "saved" so much money on by outsourcing in the 90s and noughties.

This is nothing new, just look OS at just about every other country that tried to privatise defence, it cost more and delivered less, now the smart operators are regrowing lost organic capability and bringing critical stuff back in house. As I stated in previous posts, contractors cost more than uniformed defence members and can do less, while public servants (even the technical specialist variety) cost less than uniformed defence members, yet where are the cuts, public service and uniformed defence, doh! The work still needs to be done so in come the defence contractors who don't do a single thing unless they are paid to do it, even worse, if they see a better way to do something, or even if one of their contractors comes up with a quick, easy and effective solution for a problem, that will save time and money as well as improve capability, they are specifically (contractually) prevented from soliciting this to defence, it has to be requested by defence and approved by government then tendered while the expert (who used to be a uniformed defence member or public servant before the cuts) is wasting time and effort doing things the old way instead of using the fix they came up with months earlier.

AD the system you think is so perfect actually wastes far more money than building ships and other equipment locally, this is why many expect LAND 400 to deliver much better results in so many ways, there will be a local support capability grown with the project as it progresses, like we used to get i.e. Blackhawk vs MRH and Tiger.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting that you mention the M-1 as to reduce costs and increase availably Australian facilities are being established to refurbish their turbines. There are continuous efforts throughout defence to reduce costs and increase availability for multiple capabilities, not by outsourcing overseas but by bringing support back in country and even back into the ADF. Just have a look at what we have instead of DMO now, instead of a contract management organisation it is an engineering, project management and governance organisation with skin in the game at every level. Look at how the SPOs with the most private contractor involvement and control are being pulled back into the fold with direct customer oversight and better defined accountability, look at the investment in growing enough skilled technical people to do the role that we "saved" so much money on by outsourcing in the 90s and noughties.

This is nothing new, just look OS at just about every other country that tried to privatise defence, it cost more and delivered less, now the smart operators are regrowing lost organic capability and bringing critical stuff back in house. As I stated in previous posts, contractors cost more than uniformed defence members and can do less, while public servants (even the technical specialist variety) cost less than uniformed defence members, yet where are the cuts, public service and uniformed defence, doh! The work still needs to be done so in come the defence contractors who don't do a single thing unless they are paid to do it, even worse, if they see a better way to do something, or even if one of their contractors comes up with a quick, easy and effective solution for a problem, that will save time and money as well as improve capability, they are specifically (contractually) prevented from soliciting this to defence, it has to be requested by defence and approved by government then tendered while the expert (who used to be a uniformed defence member or public servant before the cuts) is wasting time and effort doing things the old way instead of using the fix they came up with months earlier.

AD the system you think is so perfect actually wastes far more money than building ships and other equipment locally, this is why many expect LAND 400 to deliver much better results in so many ways, there will be a local support capability grown with the project as it progresses, like we used to get i.e. Blackhawk vs MRH and Tiger.
You have just perfectly articulated my position on this point. We SHOULD be buying our platforms from efficient, stable production line facilities overseas and joining global supply chains to provide efficient local support, repair and upgrade capabilities and chasing manufacturing opportunities where efficiencies of scale can be achieved across global fleets.

Which we actually do in many platform fleets, including the M1, the ASLAV with the GD turret facility in South Australia, JSF, P-8A and undoubtedly we will on the LAND 400 vehicles.

However there is a massive exception to this for some reason when it comes to the Navy. Our capability acquisition problems are the same, limited funding available to be spent on a relatively small fleet, but the difference is the apparent political imperative that supersedes these issues. Then for some reason we have to overspend by huge amounts of dollars, with usually huge project delays only to gain a similar capability or less, to what we would if we simply bought from existing production facilities...

As for MRH-90 and Tiger, remind me how we acquired them again? We ‘made’ them in Brisbane from recollection... I recall it pretty well having visited those actual facilities during the build phase... Once again to huge additional cost and schedule delay and all for only a temporary increase in manufacturing jobs provided. Then of course you add contractor incompetence, deliberate under-bidding and all the other problems with those platforms of course, but those are separate issues we have covered at length before.
 

PeterM

Active Member
You have just perfectly articulated my position on this point. We SHOULD be buying our platforms from efficient, stable production line facilities overseas and joining global supply chains to provide efficient local support, repair and upgrade capabilities and chasing manufacturing opportunities where efficiencies of scale can be achieved across global fleets.

Which we actually do in many platform fleets, including the M1, the ASLAV with the GD turret facility in South Australia, JSF, P-8A and undoubtedly we will on the LAND 400 vehicles.

However there is a massive exception to this for some reason when it comes to the Navy. Our capability acquisition problems are the same, limited funding available to be spent on a relatively small fleet, but the difference is the apparent political imperative that supersedes these issues. Then for some reason we have to overspend by huge amounts of dollars, with usually huge project delays only to gain a similar capability or less, to what we would if we simply bought from existing production facilities...

As for MRH-90 and Tiger, remind me how we acquired them again? We ‘made’ them in Brisbane from recollection... I recall it pretty well having visited those actual facilities during the build phase... Once again to huge additional cost and schedule delay and all for only a temporary increase in manufacturing jobs provided. Then of course you add contractor incompetence, deliberate under-bidding and all the other problems with those platforms of course, but those are separate issues we have covered at length before.
For me it comes down to cost versus capability. Having a domestic industry is without a doubt ideal, I am not sure it is the best bang for our buck. There are too many peaks and troughs with our defence procurement, meaning industry has to scale up and down all with a cost overhead. I may be in the minority, but I don't believe that having a domestic defence industry 'building' major equipment is sustainable. Take Land 400 for example, once we have 'built' the 225 CRVs and 450 IFVs vehicles (admittedly over a several years), providers will then need to scale down more a maintenance and support' phase. When eventually we replace these, they would need to scale up. The Australian defence industry is not internationally competitive with exports to fill any capacity gaps. The reality is that making anything here costs a lot more than elsewhere (which is what happened to the car industry).

I can't help thinking we would be better in most situations in procuring from overseas (particularly FMS with the US). We can take advantage of their economies of scale, supply trains, lower labour costs, training, upgrade paths etc. The role for our domestic defence industry is imho better placed by investing in the sustainment over the lifespan of the systems in partnership with overseas providers.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
You have just perfectly articulated my position on this point. We SHOULD be buying our platforms from efficient, stable production line facilities overseas and joining global supply chains to provide efficient local support, repair and upgrade capabilities and chasing manufacturing opportunities where efficiencies of scale can be achieved across global fleets.

Which we actually do in many platform fleets, including the M1, the ASLAV with the GD turret facility in South Australia, JSF, P-8A and undoubtedly we will on the LAND 400 vehicles.

However there is a massive exception to this for some reason when it comes to the Navy. Our capability acquisition problems are the same, limited funding available to be spent on a relatively small fleet, but the difference is the apparent political imperative that supersedes these issues. Then for some reason we have to overspend by huge amounts of dollars, with usually huge project delays only to gain a similar capability or less, to what we would if we simply bought from existing production facilities...

As for MRH-90 and Tiger, remind me how we acquired them again? We ‘made’ them in Brisbane from recollection... I recall it pretty well having visited those actual facilities during the build phase... Once again to huge additional cost and schedule delay and all for only a temporary increase in manufacturing jobs provided. Then of course you add contractor incompetence, deliberate under-bidding and all the other problems with those platforms of course, but those are separate issues we have covered at length before.
Not wanting to sound like I'm nit picking but the issue with the MRH and Tiger wasn't the local production but the maturity of the designs at the time of acquisition and the poor contracting to the support systems side of the projects, things that would have happened no matter where the airframes were assembled / manufactured. In fact one of the saving graces was the local production program meant that the ADF and industry had a larger pool of suitably qualified and experienced people to draw upon to get the projects back on track.

As an aside the ADF, as always, is working their assets harder and actually ahead of the other users of the Tiger on many milestones.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
You have just perfectly articulated my position on this point. We SHOULD be buying our platforms from efficient, stable production line facilities overseas and joining global supply chains to provide efficient local support, repair and upgrade capabilities and chasing manufacturing opportunities where efficiencies of scale can be achieved across global fleets.

Which we actually do in many platform fleets, including the M1, the ASLAV with the GD turret facility in South Australia, JSF, P-8A and undoubtedly we will on the LAND 400 vehicles.

However there is a massive exception to this for some reason when it comes to the Navy. Our capability acquisition problems are the same, limited funding available to be spent on a relatively small fleet, but the difference is the apparent political imperative that supersedes these issues. Then for some reason we have to overspend by huge amounts of dollars, with usually huge project delays only to gain a similar capability or less, to what we would if we simply bought from existing production facilities...

As for MRH-90 and Tiger, remind me how we acquired them again? We ‘made’ them in Brisbane from recollection... I recall it pretty well having visited those actual facilities during the build phase... Once again to huge additional cost and schedule delay and all for only a temporary increase in manufacturing jobs provided. Then of course you add contractor incompetence, deliberate under-bidding and all the other problems with those platforms of course, but those are separate issues we have covered at length before.
Quite a bit of an apples to oranges comparison IMO with respect to armoured vehicles for Army vs. vessels for the RAN.

From what I recall of discussions when I first joined DT, an armoured vehicle production line needed to build into the thousands of vehicles to reach the point of viability from a cost perspective. Realistically, out of the five modern MBT programmes in the West, only the US M1 Abrams and German Leopard 2 reached production of that scale. The French Leclerc came close to 1,000 units (~850) but the British Challenger 2 was only ~450, while the Italian Ariete was only 200.

Australia might have reached that economically viable point (after a decade or more) with the Bushmaster with ~1,000 units ordered, though I suspect that the simpler overall design and lighter weight of armour would be primary drivers for that, rather than just raw numbers. After all, a smaller vehicle, with less need to cut/form armour, would require less tooling to be set up.

On the naval construction side, due to the time it takes to construct a single vessel like a frigate or destroyer, studies have been commissioned which indicate that a domestically built vessel with 30+% higher price than a foreign-built vessel, would still be competitive due to that funding going back into the economy. Purchasing raw mats from domestic suppliers, paying domestic yard workers for construction and assembly, and then the secondary and tertiary spending as the suppliers pay their workers, the yard workers purchase their necessities and commodities, etc. And then of course there is the benefits to ongoing and future support for that and other vessels by having both the facilities and personnel appropriate to working on a frigate.

The main issue that I see impacting production costs for some of the naval programmes is that gov't is inconsistent on placing build orders, alongside pollies trying to direct as much of the work as possible to benefit 'their' constituents, as opposed to placing orders to benefit Australia as a whole.

The selection of then-ADI's Bushmaster produced in Bendigo vs. Tenix's Unimog-based S-600 is a good example of politics driving procurement decisions. The S-600 was of equal or better performance in terms of mobility, protection, etc. As I understand it, there were two major differences, one being based that off the Unimog, a number of mechanical parts could be sourced from the worldwide Unimog customer support base which would reduce the likely repair and support costs, especially if operating away from Australia. The second difference IIRC was the one which led to the Bushmaster being selected, which was the S600 production site was in a seat firmly controlled by the Opposition, and there was no political advantage to be gained by the governing party, whereas Bendigo was in a threatened seat.

Playing the "what if..." game, I cannot help but wonder if the S600 would have had greater export success than the Bushmaster has had so far, due to likely lower support costs for foreign operators due to similarities with commercial/civilian Unimog mechanical components. As it stands now, it seems that the ~120 Bushmasters owned/operated outside of the Australia & the ADF were drawn from ADF stocks and then replaced. Meanwhile Thailand is producing an MRAP with Malaysia starting licensed production of the Thai design, and the Philippines had ordered the design and then canceled the order due to budgetary reasons. That strongly suggests to me that there is still a need for MRAP IMV-type vehicles, at least within the ASEAN region, but it is possible that decisions made for domestic political advantage might have contributed to make international exports non-competitive.
 

benson1610

New Member
Hi all,this is my first post,i am just a defence industry enthusiast so i will never give my opinion on vehicle selection.
I follow this website for the various opinions because they come from those that actually use the vehicles.
Just my opinion,but someone suggested we can't be competitive in armored vehicle manufacturing and they referred to the car industry.
Imo we can be competitive,so i'll stay with the boxer for example.we will be doing the initial production run in Australia,which i agree is a small run,but what needs to be taken into account is the rheinmettal global supply change,first even before i mention co's directly involved in land 400 boxer, we have incredible businesses family owned/asx listed that already export to the US,UAE ,israel military etc.
Now we may not export the boxer as a finished product,or perhaps we will,but absolutely imo we are fully capable of being a exporter a large percentage of the vehicle ie the armored modules as there is little labor involved in the actually Q&T process,and much of the welding will be automated.
Something else,as suggested we have various co's that produce world leading technology including armor grade steel of world leading stanag grades ,for example ,the australian co that produces the armor grade previously listed the US army Oshkosh MRAP and MATV as past supply contracts.
Which brings me to the Oshkosh jltv which will replace the humvee.ie the Australian equivalent to the hawkei jltv.The Australian govt ordered 1100 hawkeis,the US army has just confirmed they will receive 6000 oshkosh jltv's by end of 2018 ,then another 17,000,then finally total 55,000 oshkosh jltv's.
No the company has made no announcement ,and of course it may not get business,but it supplied the previous armor plate for oshkosh vehicles,seems to me a good chance they will supply the Oshkosh jltv which like any production run clearly makes such a production run viable in australia as i believe the stronger lighter armor plate would b similar if not same as hawkei.
ps from a political view,trump seems very frustrated at various countries that are not spending the capex on defence that he believes they should be,i feel trump would be very satisfied with australia's defence spending.
Hope i have not offended anyone with my post,especially the higher ranking officers.
ps production wise the lynx would probably be better for australian production,but the puma looks an awesome vehicle,just saying for phase 3.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Gidday cobber and welcome to the forum. We avoid politics because they're against forum rules. We look forward to your future contributions to the discussion.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Hi all,this is my first post,i am just a defence industry enthusiast so i will never give my opinion on vehicle selection.
I follow this website for the various opinions because they come from those that actually use the vehicles.
Just my opinion,but someone suggested we can't be competitive in armored vehicle manufacturing and they referred to the car industry.
Imo we can be competitive,so i'll stay with the boxer for example.we will be doing the initial production run in Australia,which i agree is a small run,but what needs to be taken into account is the rheinmettal global supply change,first even before i mention co's directly involved in land 400 boxer, we have incredible businesses family owned/asx listed that already export to the US,UAE ,israel military etc.
Now we may not export the boxer as a finished product,or perhaps we will,but absolutely imo we are fully capable of being a exporter a large percentage of the vehicle ie the armored modules as there is little labor involved in the actually Q&T process,and much of the welding will be automated.
Something else,as suggested we have various co's that produce world leading technology including armor grade steel of world leading stanag grades ,for example ,the australian co that produces the armor grade previously listed the US army Oshkosh MRAP and MATV as past supply contracts.
Which brings me to the Oshkosh jltv which will replace the humvee.ie the Australian equivalent to the hawkei jltv.The Australian govt ordered 1100 hawkeis,the US army has just confirmed they will receive 6000 oshkosh jltv's by end of 2018 ,then another 17,000,then finally total 55,000 oshkosh jltv's.
No the company has made no announcement ,and of course it may not get business,but it supplied the previous armor plate for oshkosh vehicles,seems to me a good chance they will supply the Oshkosh jltv which like any production run clearly makes such a production run viable in australia as i believe the stronger lighter armor plate would b similar if not same as hawkei.
ps from a political view,trump seems very frustrated at various countries that are not spending the capex on defence that he believes they should be,i feel trump would be very satisfied with australia's defence spending.
Hope i have not offended anyone with my post,especially the higher ranking officers.
ps production wise the lynx would probably be better for australian production,but the puma looks an awesome vehicle,just saying for phase 3.
Keep in mind that production and exportation of materials and/or component parts is vastly different from exporting complete systems or products. The ability to produce armour plate for example, does not translate into the ability to design or even 'just' manufacture an armoured vehicle. In the case of supplying a component for a finished defence product, doing so hinges on whether or not anyone else can provide the same or an equivalent product, of the appropriate specs and in the needed time frame and quantities, for the same or at a lower cost.

One of the other considerations with respect to defence exports is just how much competition is out there to provide various capabilities. If a product is comparatively simple to produce, a nation with even a limited industrial base will likely be able to be self-sufficient. For more complex components or systems there are likely to be several different potential competitors, and then it becomes a question of which product best meets the needed capabilities, support, and cost requirements.

In the case of the IFV portion of LAND 400, unless as part of the design selection and subsequent contract Australia purchases the IP and export rights, then Australia would have no chance to produce and export the winning design to other nations. Using the Boxer as an example, the German-Dutch joint venture would be foolish to permit Australia to compete with them in the international export market, using their own design. The only reason why it might make sense to permit this (apart from if Australia paid significantly for the IP and potential export rights) would be if the joint-venture expected to book sufficient orders to exceed their production capacity by enough so that the venture could not keep up, but not enough to make it worthwhile to expand the venture's production capacity.

That does not even get into any potential export markets which might require defence production be done domestically if/when possible to save money and/or ensure their own capability to provide for their defence needs.
 

benson1610

New Member
All good points Todjaeger,but my origin point was the global military vehicle and component market can not be compared to the global motor vehicle market.
Much depends on alliances and imperative strategic co operation between countries even if they may have some issues ie the connection between the French,UK and US submarine technologies.
As i believe i'm correct in saying most on this forum probably ? prefer the boxer over the bae /patria vehicle.So i will say going by various rheinmetall announcements i hope they win they phase 2 with the boxer,i have also read on this forum the lynx appears to be a very capable vehicle but the puma has the extra bells and whistles and (imo looks impressive).
So i hope rheinmettal win all the contracts ie first the trucks,then boxer then lynx or puma.It was interesting a govt trip recently to germany changed the govt criteria for phase 3,it now includes puma and apparently other vehicles.
But my point,besides rheinmetall being prepared to spend millions on development and manufacturing centres,they have suggested the lynx will be manufactured and exported from Australia.?.So question is obvious how capable is lynx to comparable vehicles i'll leave that to others.
I agree the cost of manufacturing in Australia is ridiculous,but as AI is introduced ,and if we can provide reasonable energy costs we should become more competitive,and the AUD remains around the .75 cents
It seems to me Australia is being included in the global supply chain for military vehicles eg will be producing the spike missile,will be exporting the cabling system for boxer,suspension systems,armor plate etc etc other co's and contracts.
My favorite is, i hope we select the 35mm rheinmetall canon and various ammunitions as going by this forum and rheinmetall its sounds like a very impressive piece of technology suitable for navy and army (boxer and puma).I thought it was amusing the first boxer arrived with a 35mm,when 30mm included in tender.
Bottom line all this technology transfer by global co's and development by Australian co's thru co operation with CSIRO,unversities etc is leading to other developments in other sectors.
Finally regarding IP etc ,imo once technology is transferred it becomes very difficult to control ie simple example one improvement to a patent will generally void original patent etc.Of course different story to a degree regarding the design of an entire boxer.
ps watched a video of the comparison between the oshkosh jltv and the humvee,sry can't post links but if you google 'humvee v's JLTV ,what its like to drive the new humvee'.I found it very interesting but still a concern when you think humvees still in use.
ps can't wait for a comparison between hawkei and oshkosh jltv video?.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
All good points Todjaeger,but my origin point was the global military vehicle and component market can not be compared to the global motor vehicle market.
Much depends on alliances and imperative strategic co operation between countries even if they may have some issues ie the connection between the French,UK and US submarine technologies.
As i believe i'm correct in saying most on this forum probably ? prefer the boxer over the bae /patria vehicle.So i will say going by various rheinmetall announcements i hope they win they phase 2 with the boxer,i have also read on this forum the lynx appears to be a very capable vehicle but the puma has the extra bells and whistles and (imo looks impressive).
So i hope rheinmettal win all the contracts ie first the trucks,then boxer then lynx or puma.It was interesting a govt trip recently to germany changed the govt criteria for phase 3,it now includes puma and apparently other vehicles.
But my point,besides rheinmetall being prepared to spend millions on development and manufacturing centres,they have suggested the lynx will be manufactured and exported from Australia.?.So question is obvious how capable is lynx to comparable vehicles i'll leave that to others.
I agree the cost of manufacturing in Australia is ridiculous,but as AI is introduced ,and if we can provide reasonable energy costs we should become more competitive,and the AUD remains around the .75 cents
It seems to me Australia is being included in the global supply chain for military vehicles eg will be producing the spike missile,will be exporting the cabling system for boxer,suspension systems,armor plate etc etc other co's and contracts.
My favorite is, i hope we select the 35mm rheinmetall canon and various ammunitions as going by this forum and rheinmetall its sounds like a very impressive piece of technology suitable for navy and army (boxer and puma).I thought it was amusing the first boxer arrived with a 35mm,when 30mm included in tender.
Bottom line all this technology transfer by global co's and development by Australian co's thru co operation with CSIRO,unversities etc is leading to other developments in other sectors.
Finally regarding IP etc ,imo once technology is transferred it becomes very difficult to control ie simple example one improvement to a patent will generally void original patent etc.Of course different story to a degree regarding the design of an entire boxer.
ps watched a video of the comparison between the oshkosh jltv and the humvee,sry can't post links but if you google 'humvee v's JLTV ,what its like to drive the new humvee'.I found it very interesting but still a concern when you think humvees still in use.
ps can't wait for a comparison between hawkei and oshkosh jltv video?.
A few key points for the above wall of text. Incidentally, it makes it much easier to read and respond (especially to specific points) if there are breaks between paragraphs.

Australia has been and is part of the global supply chain for both commercial/civilian, as well as defence products. A key part of that though is that the Australia largely participates by supplying materials, or components. For a few things Australia does provide subsystems (CEA has various comms and radar systems for example), but for the most part, any major or complete defence system manufactured in Australia is for the home or Kiwi market, not the international defence market. Back when Thales Australia was still ADI, they produced Australia's leading defence export which was the Dyad magnetic influence sweeps with exports in the (not tens of, or hundreds of IIRC) millions AUD. Part of the reason why Australia was exporting the Dyad (now listed as AMAS) was that it was an innovative design for MCM, and it had capabilities not available in other magnetic influence sweeps.

With regards to exporting completed armoured vehicles... there would need to be some rather compelling reasons for Australia to be able to do so. At present Australia does not have armoured vehicle design experience (both the Bushmaster and S600 entries for the LAND 116 IMV were Irish designs, by or based off Timoney and Shorts Brothers respectively). Now I can see Rheinmetall contracting for licensed production within Australia to participate in/win an Australian contract for part/all of LAND 400, I really do not see how it would be financially beneficial to Rheinmetall or KWM, to have an Australian production facility manufacturing Lynx or Puma vehicles for export, as opposed to utilizing existing Rheinmetall/KWM production lines in Germany for international export.

With respect to IP controls and tech transfer, it really depends on what the agreements are, and what has been transferred. Using some of the US and UK defence IP controls, the US and UK have been able to block or influence sale of defence kit to Venezuela and Argentina, and this involved Spanish and Swedish designed & manufactured systems respectively. With regards to those sales, the US and UK became involved because they did not want the purchasing nations to have access to certain kit, had the US and/or UK had companies competing for the defence projects, I can only imagine how difficult the gov'ts would become about if a US or UK company found itself losing against a foreign company using US or UK parts or designs.
 

Beam

Member
A few key points for the above wall of text. Incidentally, it makes it much easier to read and respond (especially to specific points) if there are breaks between paragraphs.

Australia has been and is part of the global supply chain for both commercial/civilian, as well as defence products. A key part of that though is that the Australia largely participates by supplying materials, or components. For a few things Australia does provide subsystems (CEA has various comms and radar systems for example), but for the most part, any major or complete defence system manufactured in Australia is for the home or Kiwi market, not the international defence market. Back when Thales Australia was still ADI, they produced Australia's leading defence export which was the Dyad magnetic influence sweeps with exports in the (not tens of, or hundreds of IIRC) millions AUD. Part of the reason why Australia was exporting the Dyad (now listed as AMAS) was that it was an innovative design for MCM, and it had capabilities not available in other magnetic influence sweeps.

With regards to exporting completed armoured vehicles... there would need to be some rather compelling reasons for Australia to be able to do so. At present Australia does not have armoured vehicle design experience (both the Bushmaster and S600 entries for the LAND 116 IMV were Irish designs, by or based off Timoney and Shorts Brothers respectively). Now I can see Rheinmetall contracting for licensed production within Australia to participate in/win an Australian contract for part/all of LAND 400, I really do not see how it would be financially beneficial to Rheinmetall or KWM, to have an Australian production facility manufacturing Lynx or Puma vehicles for export, as opposed to utilizing existing Rheinmetall/KWM production lines in Germany for international export.

With respect to IP controls and tech transfer, it really depends on what the agreements are, and what has been transferred. Using some of the US and UK defence IP controls, the US and UK have been able to block or influence sale of defence kit to Venezuela and Argentina, and this involved Spanish and Swedish designed & manufactured systems respectively. With regards to those sales, the US and UK became involved because they did not want the purchasing nations to have access to certain kit, had the US and/or UK had companies competing for the defence projects, I can only imagine how difficult the gov'ts would become about if a US or UK company found itself losing against a foreign company using US or UK parts or designs.
Actually, the reason may be political rather than economic. The German govt has been reluctant or at least very slow recently in approving military sales exports. Perhaps Rheinmettall sees Australia as a way of speedier sales approvals.
 
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benson1610

New Member
Just for the record it was rheinmetall that made the announcement re australian production of lynx for export.

Maybe an example of why a company may choose Australia as a manufacturing facility ie refeal production of spike missile in Australia as some countries may have issues buying direct from Israel.
Re bushmaster, we supply armor grade steel etc and i believe we designed a variant of bushmaster for indonesian military.
Re hawkei, although a thales vehicle,designed and manufactured in Australia and thales believe it has export potential ie poland could be first customer.Interesting to note hawkei was not submitted to US jltv selection but that could have been both vehicles still at development stage.But UK is interested in oshkosh vehicle jltv but will Australia submit hawkei for UK selection especially considering UK trying to sell us their future frigate.
I have tried to make comparisons on hawkei pricing and performance but can't find any apples for apples comparison,especially considering production run of hawkei approx 1100,oshkosh jltv 55,000 .But if bisalloy supplies steel for US jltv like they do other oshkosh vehicles then hawkei production cost should be reduced.
Just to make the point,Austal seems to have no issues manufacturing naval vessels in US.
We could go on and on,but imo manufacturing of army military vehicles in Australia is viable because of the value , technology, futue Ai developments,current Australian technology suppliers and strategic relationships with other countries ,plus above various points.
Just my opinion so time will tell.
What makes no sense is the cost of building 12 conventional subs from scratch,it appears to me the army seems to b ? making sensible decisions on vehicle selection and upgrades...
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
As with everything it becomes about scale. For land vehicles in Australia the army has a lot of vehicles but to have any chance of it becoming viable on global cost comparisons would require all that work taking place at a singular facility (Think land version of ASC). MBT's, IFV's, APC's, PMV's, Engineering and possibly even heavy vehicles in the civilian market.

Any one by them self would not be enough and even pro Aussie manufacturing me can admit that. All of them combined with having a lot of skills that can flow on from one product to the next then it is possible. Not necessary export potential of complete vehicles but chance of part's/systems and decent chance of increased Australian work share gained on them for no extra costs (Once factor in taxes, jobs etc) all the while improving there availability (Less reliant on long global supply chain).

Because of all the different parties only way this would work is if gov set it up in fashion similar to ASC and the leadership of said company/entity actively went after work outside of just what the ADF provided. We can do the work, We can meet the global costs it is just a matter of ensuring that the timing of acquisitions, future maintenance, upgrades etc is worked out in an efficient manner to allow one project to flow onto the next.

OT but On a side note such a facility on the civilian side of things could also start manufacturing trains and trams 100% Australian content with a whole of Australia involvement. With the number we acquire on average each year we actually more then have the scale to be meeting global standards while keeping all jobs, taxes and profits here.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Just for the record it was rheinmetall that made the announcement re australian production of lynx for export.
I would interested to see where you saw that. I have found this link from June 2016 containing an interview of the CEO of Rheinmetall Land Systems and Rheinmetall MAN Military Vehicles which mentioned participation in the global Rheinmetall supply chain, as well as manufacture of subsystems and ultimately design of vehicle variants production of complete vehicles. There was no mention of exporting complete vehicles which strongly suggests to me that Australian-built Rheinmetall vehicles would be for Australian and possibly Kiwi use, as opposed to production for international export.

As for Australian production of the Spike LR2... In the grand scheme of things that is rather minor IMO. Especially since that particular ATGM is not in Australian service, and might never be. I suspect the primary reason for establishing the production facility was to attempt to capitalize on a possibly LAND 400 Phase 3 contract. Looking at the world user base for Spike already being supported by Israeli production, I do not really see much need for Australian production which would likely be about as expensive and likely have less financial benefit to Rafael/Israel. As for Australian production of an Israeli-designed weapon being viable for export to various nations which cannot/will not purchase from Israel... That is a non-starter for so many reasons that IMO it is not worth listing them.

As I and others have mentioned, there needs to be a certain volume of work (which varies depending on the type of work/system) to be viable and self-sustaining. The unfortunate reality does appear to be that an Australian-only order of vehicles is unlike to be large enough to sustain a production facility and the associated work force and supply chains, and any Australian production centre would be directly competing with existing, established production centres for armoured vehicles who also need to make sure they reach a viable number of orders to remain in existence. With the collapse of the Australian automotive industry, as well as the infighting between Victorian and Queensland MP's over who (where) the LAND 400 production will be... it does appear that the effort will be largely squandered much like the boom-bust-boom cycle of Australian naval shipbuilding has.
 

benson1610

New Member
I post on another forum and when i do i keep reference for some time until no ref required.

So as announcement by rheinmetall was made some months ago i cancelled reference.
But i have no problem searching thru various websites like ADM,defence connect etc to find the various references..

But i thought i would do a quick google of 'rheinmetall to export lynx from Australia' and came up with following but if you want i will search further thru references listed and others .
'Rheinmetall eyes up ipswich for giant army vehicle hub'. dated 7/9/2017.

City of Ipswich.'
quotes from rheinmetall.
'Rheinmetall will build a military vehicle centre of excellence (MILVEHCOE) in Ipswich'

'Mr Stewart (rheinmetall)confirmed that as well as building the 225 boxer crv's ,the ipswich hub would also be used to fulfill global defence contracts'.
My guess is to increase the production of boxers to make production more viable.whatever.

'This would include the MILVEHCOE becoming the global hub for the new LYNX tracked armoured vehicle and the rheinmetall LANCE turret'.

'There will be numerous global export opportunities through products such as LYNX and the LANCE turret'.

Hope that is satisfactory as there are plenty of articles on phase 2 and 3 vehicles and comments by BAE and Rheinmetall.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I post on another forum and when i do i keep reference for some time until no ref required.

So as announcement by rheinmetall was made some months ago i cancelled reference.
But i have no problem searching thru various websites like ADM,defence connect etc to find the various references..

But i thought i would do a quick google of 'rheinmetall to export lynx from Australia' and came up with following but if you want i will search further thru references listed and others .
'Rheinmetall eyes up ipswich for giant army vehicle hub'. dated 7/9/2017.

City of Ipswich.'
quotes from rheinmetall.
'Rheinmetall will build a military vehicle centre of excellence (MILVEHCOE) in Ipswich'

'Mr Stewart (rheinmetall)confirmed that as well as building the 225 boxer crv's ,the ipswich hub would also be used to fulfill global defence contracts'.
My guess is to increase the production of boxers to make production more viable.whatever.

'This would include the MILVEHCOE becoming the global hub for the new LYNX tracked armoured vehicle and the rheinmetall LANCE turret'.

'There will be numerous global export opportunities through products such as LYNX and the LANCE turret'.

Hope that is satisfactory as there are plenty of articles on phase 2 and 3 vehicles and comments by BAE and Rheinmetall.
I will look into it further, but so far I have only come across statements which have indicated the potential participation in the 'global Rheinmetall supply chain' as well as domestic Australian production of major subsystems and in the future complete vehicle production. Still nothing which would suggest the sort of export order activity which would be required to maintain an Australian armoured vehicle production capability. I readily admit I have been looking at releases issued by Rheinmetall itself, as opposed to other sources since local and defence reporting is rather notorious for getting basic facts wrong, while a statement issued by Rheinmetall announcing an intent to produce armoured vehicles in Australia for the international export market would be hard to misconstrue.

At present, the impression I have is that planned Rheinmetall activity (assuming contracts awarded for parts of LAND 400) would be primarily to support domestic Australian armoured vehicle production, as well as some component manufacture for the global market. Much like how Boeing Australia produces specific components for use in various Boeing jets which are assembled elsewhere.

OTOH it could also be that we have read some of the same articles but have reached different conclusions due to having started with different assumptions.
 

benson1610

New Member
As i'm sure you agree we have both posted lengthy posts.
So my suggestion is to contact Rheinmetall defence Australia direct.ph 03 8630 3400
I phoned but managing director over seas,
But receptionist suggested she would put me thru to Richard Sproull.
Her suggestion was to speak to richard direct if not then email [email protected]
I did not proceed with call because anything verbal would not be satisfactory and if he replied with a email, i don't know how to post a copy of email on this forum.
So if you are interested my suggestion would be to ask richard if the rheinmetall managing director Mr Gary Stewart has been quoted correctly in the ipswich article i referenced.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
A question re the Tiger ARH

It was stated in the Australian Aviation Magazine that the Tigers may start flying within a few weeks. This comment was back in Oct 2017.
Does anyone know if the Tigers are back in the air. I Have not read of any return to service for this helicopter.

Regards S
 
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